The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[KennethC]

Sorry Kenneth, we hold diametrically opposed views of the Gospel. So if you don't mind, I am going to pass this up as we have gone over this many times in the past. It'll just be fruitless.

PS: That was a hypothetical I was speaking of, btw. I wasn't saying works were sins, but saying IF they were they would be burnt up.

The reason I mentioned this was because the person you said you sided with earlier on this topic, did state the the wood, hay, and stubble were sins........

Not possible since they are spoken of as building on the foundation of Christ.

Deliberately continuing to be sinful is not building on His foundation, but trampling Him underfoot !!!

 

[Willie-T]

OK let's cut to the chase. What do you think Christ was holding against those sinning in his churches? If you can't come up with something more convincing than sin, then aren't you being just a little bit disingenuous?

In the TWO churches where that is brought up, He is not telling them they are sinners. He is telling them that IF they don't straighten out these things He mentions, He is going to take action.

 

[Willie-T]

The reason I mentioned this was because the person you said you sided with earlier on this topic, did state the the wood, hay, and stubble were sins........

Not possible since they are spoken of as building on the foundation of Christ.

Deliberately continuing to be sinful is not building on His foundation, but trampling Him underfoot !!!

Oh, for cryin' out loud. It was clearly obvious to me, and to many others I'm sure, that he was speaking hypothetically.... going with the "example" the other person used to try and school him.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a series of grace-based teaching on the revelation churches..anyone interested can click the link below....



Strike Her Children Dead (Revelation 2:23) – Escape to Reality

 

[BenFTW]

In the TWO churches where that is brought up, He is not telling them they are sinners. He is telling them that IF they don't straighten out these things He mentions, He is going to take action.

Is it like that one scene in Mr. Deeds where the son did something wrong and the father pulls out the belt? To which the son yells, "No daddy, no!" lol

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In the TWO churches where that is brought up, He is not telling them they are sinners. He is telling them that IF they don't straighten out these things He mentions, He is going to take action.

Christ didn't hold things against them because they were doing right. He held things against them because they weren't doing right, which is sin. He was holding their sin against them.

Ephesus. Leaving the foremost love of GOD is sin.

But I hold against you because you have left your first love. Revelation 2:4​

Pergamum. Sin.

But I hold against you a little because you have there ones holding the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to throw an obstacle before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit harlotry. Revelation 2:14​

Thyatira. Sin.

But I hold against you because you tolerate the woman Jezebel, the one who calls herself a prophetess, and teaches and deceives my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. Revelation 2:20​

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Have not our sins already been judged? Was not the verdict guilty as charged? And did not Jesus take all of that guilt and the punishment rightfully due us upon Himself?

Yes. ALL my past sins have been judged and forgiven - I guess I have a problem relating "past sins" with present and future sins . . . . I see Jesus as my advocate - defense attorney - what do I need a defense attorney for if every act I commit is already forgiven?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Yes. ALL my past sins have been judged and forgiven - I guess I have a problem relating "past sins" with present and future sins . . . . I see Jesus as my advocate - defense attorney - what do I need a defense attorney for if every act I commit is already forgiven?

Okay, let's go with that. You can only sin in the present, correct? Are you presently sinning?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Okay, let's go with that. You can only sin in the present, correct? Are you presently sinning?

Not at the present moment but I may be if this continues!!! Look - what I see people saying is that we don't have to ask forgiveness - ALL has been forgiven - and I agree that ALL sins in the past before I became born again - are GONE, zip, nada - clean slate. I begin my walk as a child of God - I sin - what do I do with it? I sin but God doesn't see it nor acknowledge it because it is already forgiven? Hey, does sound pretty good to me! - but I can't see it . . . And if you can - more power to ya - got nothing against you - I just can't see it.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Not at the present moment but I may be if this continues!!! Look - what I see people saying is that we don't have to ask forgiveness - ALL has been forgiven - and I agree that ALL sins in the past before I became born again - are GONE, zip, nada - clean slate. I begin my walk as a child of God - I sin - what do I do with it? I sin but God doesn't see it nor acknowledge it because it is already forgiven? Hey, does sound pretty good to me! - but I can't see it . . . And if you can - more power to ya - got nothing against you - I just can't see it.

The point is that all of your sins are in the past. All your sins have been forgiven. Period.

In Christ we HAVE forgiveness, as scripture plainly tells us….


- Acts 10:43 - "everyone who believes in Him RECEIVES forgiveness of sins"

- Eph. 1:7 - "in Him we HAVE...the forgiveness of our trespasses"

- Eph. 4:32 - "God in Christ HAS forgiven you"

- Col. 1:14 - "we HAVE...the forgiveness of sins"

- Col. 2:13 - “HAVING forgiven all our transgressions

- 1 John 2:12 - "your sins ARE forgiven"

 

[Willie-T]

Yes. ALL my past sins have been judged and forgiven - I guess I have a problem relating "past sins" with present and future sins . . . . I see Jesus as my advocate - defense attorney - what do I need a defense attorney for if every act I commit is already forgiven?

Didn't the Jews already have a system in place just like you are talking about?

They got "cleaned-up" every year. And then, next year, they fixed things again with another sacrifice. And then again the next year, and on and on. Every year when they sacrificed, their sins were "forgiven" up to that point. They had been doing fine with this method for thousands of years. What do you suppose was different about what Jesus offered? Does Jesus get re-sacrificed each time we sin to, again, get us "cleaned-up" to that particular point in time?

The Bible speaks of those bull sacrifices being "imperfect", in that they had to be done again and again. But the Bible calls Jesus the "perfect" sacrifice because His sacrifice was done one time, for always.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Didn't the Jews already have a system in place just like you are talking about?

They got "cleaned-up" every year. And then, next year, they fixed things again with another sacrifice. And then again the next year, and on and on. Every year when they sacrificed, their sins were "forgiven" up to that point. They had been doing fine with this method for thousands of years. What do you suppose was different about what Jesus offered? Does Jesus get re-sacrificed each time we sin to, again, get us "cleaned-up" to that particular point in time?

The Bible speaks of those bull sacrifices being "imperfect", in that they had to be done again and again. But the Bible calls Jesus the "perfect" sacrifice because His sacrifice was done one time, for always.

One sacrifice for all time, but under the old covenant sins weren't forgiven until the high priest took the blood into the holiest place and sprinkled it on the mercy seat. Christ took his blood to the mercy seat in heaven and he hasn't come out yet. His blood is still making reconciliation for sin.

[You have come] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Hebrews 12:24

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7​

 

[Willie-T]

One sacrifice for all time, but under the old covenant sins weren't forgiven until the high priest took the blood into the holiest place and sprinkled it on the mercy seat. Christ took his blood to the mercy seat in heaven and he hasn't come out yet. His blood is still making reconciliation for sin.

[You have come] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Hebrews 12:24

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7​

You might want to read Lev.16 to get an idea of what I was talking about. (I said "bull", but it was actually a goat, as I recall..... hard to keep all those animal sacrifices sorted out.)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You might want to read Lev.16 to get an idea of what I was talking about. (I said "bull", but it was actually a goat, as I recall..... hard to keep all those animal sacrifices sorted out.)

I'm well familiar with it. The bull was for the high priest and his family's sins. The goat was for the people's sins. In both cases the blood had to be taken behind the veil. This differed from everyday sin sacrifices offered by individuals, of which the blood was put on the horns of the altar and poured out at its base.

 

[phil36]

I think alot of the issues seem to get confused by what we all mostly agree with:-


We all agree that regeneration/the christian life etc is all of grace and nothing but, even our own faith is a gift.

We don't believe that one is regenerated/born again by works.

We believe that we are a new man in Christ liberated from the shackles of the sin nature to live the new life in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We also can agree that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ.


My question is this, what is it that you guys of the hyper grace persuasion (or so called hyper grace) think that traditional Christianity has wrong. Now don't label us 'legalists' as that is just a strawman. I do agree, however that there are legalists but they are now fringe (not so maybe 30 or so years ago and not all legalists believe your are saved by works either..just bear that in mind).

If you could put it in your own words over a few paragrahs , please don't copy and paste huge swathes of stuff and links...as no there is no need.

 

[phil36]

Anyhow apologises for derailing your OP for a moment... it just nice to put a correct balance to what scripture says..its very easy to take one motif and take it out of balance... sometimes people do that with grace and sanctification etc.

 

[Grace777x70]

Lol......I completely understand the need to bring the "correct balance" into things as "we" see it........the funny part is that we all think we have the "correct balance"...it's the nature of the beast thing again..lol...that was a good one....it made me laugh...Thanks Phil36 and have a good night ! Bless you!

Anyhow apologises for derailing your OP for a moment... it just nice to put a correct balance to what scripture says..its very easy to take one motif and take it out of balance... sometimes people do that with grace and sanctification etc.

 

[Willie-T]

I think alot of the issues seem to get confused by what we all mostly agree with:-


We all agree that regeneration/the christian life etc is all of grace and nothing but, even our own faith is a gift.

We don't believe that one is regenerated/born again by works.

We believe that we are a new man in Christ liberated from the shackles of the sin nature to live the new life in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We also can agree that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ.


My question is this, what is it that you guys of the hyper grace persuasion (or so called hyper grace) think that traditional Christianity has wrong. Now don't label us 'legalists' as that is just a strawman. I do agree, however that there are legalists but they are now fringe (not so maybe 30 or so years ago and not all legalists believe your are saved by works either..just bear that in mind).

If you could put it in your own words over a few paragrahs , please don't copy and paste huge swathes of stuff and links...as no there is no need.

I think the biggest thing is that traditionalism seems to be concerned with doing church properly, and Grace Teaching appears to want to find the people who need Christ.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Didn't the Jews already have a system in place just like you are talking about?

They got "cleaned-up" every year. And then, next year, they fixed things again with another sacrifice. And then again the next year, and on and on. Every year when they sacrificed, their sins were "forgiven" up to that point. They had been doing fine with this method for thousands of years. What do you suppose was different about what Jesus offered? Does Jesus get re-sacrificed each time we sin to, again, get us "cleaned-up" to that particular point in time?

The Bible speaks of those bull sacrifices being "imperfect", in that they had to be done again and again. But the Bible calls Jesus the "perfect" sacrifice because His sacrifice was done one time, for always.

Well I haven't sacrificed any bulls lately - nor goats or sheep for that matter! The only thing I have sacrificed would be my pride because in order for me to come to God for forgiveness - I have to humble myself before him. Yes, Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins once for all - He could only die once . . . no more need for sacrifice. Exactly, what am I sacrificing when I say that I am sorry for something I have done?

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin -BUT, (BUT, BUT) IF ANYONE DOES SIN, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. He takes care of OUR sins through forgiveness and the sins of the whole world through repentance. Why does this verse say - He writes these things so that we may not sin - BUT IF WE DO, we have an advocate? Sounds to me as if we need our advocate to stand for us - and it is IF WE CONFESS our sins He cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Grace777x70]

Perhaps going to post #1 here to look at the 1 John 1 choices of belief might help to what some are talking about concerning forgiveness.........click below

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ion-confession-1-john-1-9-sin-confession.html