The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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I think the biggest thing is that traditionalism seems to be concerned with doing church properly, and Grace Teaching appears to want to find the people who need Christ.

Hi Willie-T,

Thanks for answering. I think you will find that in some circles but on the whole thats not true the church has always taught grace (and when I speak of church i maen the body not an organisation or even magesterium).

So what are the actual differences in belief. again I ask that you don't use strawman arguments.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Perhaps going to post #1 here to look at the 1 John 1 choices of belief might help to what some are talking about concerning forgiveness.........click below

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ion-confession-1-john-1-9-sin-confession.html



I don't see an obsession with confession...to me thats just another strawman. I marvel in the wonders of God's grace towards me (and all else), yet I wander at the marvel of confession another grace :) that of confessing my own sin to the great intercesor.

its all of grace...confession aswell :)
 
Nov 22, 2015
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This was for peacefulbeliever..as she was asking them about forgiveness.......thought I would direct her to what they were talking about...:)


I don't see an obsession with confession...to me thats just another strawman. I marvel in the wonders of God's grace towards me (and all else), yet I wander at the marvel of confession another grace :) that of confessing my own sin to the great intercesor.

its all of grace...confession aswell :)
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Hi Willie-T,

Thanks for answering. I think you will find that in some circles but on the whole thats not true the church has always taught grace (and when I speak of church i maen the body not an organisation or even magesterium).

So what are the actual differences in belief. again I ask that you don't use strawman arguments.
Well, one example might be that most Grace Churches (mine included) will welcome homosexuals, and not blast them with their sinfulness as quickly, perhaps, as most Traditional churches might think they should.

In other words, if it is the love of God that is supposed to be shown through us that will attract people, what love are they seeing if on their first or second (or even tenth) visit, they are told that they are an abomination, and that this person they came with, and "love" (I guess) is also a degenerate, and they need to cut off all association with them.

Now, admittedly, I think this "acceptance" can be carried way too far (in fact, I think my own church does take it a bit too far) before they BEGIN to hear some hard, truthful facts.

I know that all "T" churches aren't as bad as the Westboro Idiots, but to someone sensitive to who and what they are, I think most "T" groups broadside them way too quickly...... and succeed in only running them off. And the sad thing, to me, is that they often seem to be proud of having done something like that.
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Well, one example might be that most Grace Churches (mine included) will welcome homosexuals, and not blast them with their sinfulness as quickly, perhaps, as most Traditional churches might think they should.

In other words, if it is the love of God that is supposed to be shown through us that will attract people, what love are they seeing if on their first or second (or even tenth) visit, they are told that they are an abomination, and that this person they came with, and "love" (I guess) is also a degenerate, and they need to cut off all association with them.

Now, admittedly, I think this "acceptance" can be carried way too far (in fact, I think my own church does take it a bit too far) before they BEGIN to hear some hard, truthful facts.

I know that all "T" churches aren't as bad as the Westboro Idiots, but to someone sensitive to who and what they are, I think most "T" groups broadside them way too quickly...... and succeed in only running them off. And the sad thing, to me, is that they often seem to be proud of having done something like that.


I think how you use the word 'grace' is a bit strawman aswell as all churches (well not all) believe in 'it's all of grace' some may not act it, but then who is perfect.. I remember an old saying " if you find a perfect church, don't go to it as you wil ruin it" ;)


Anyhow, any church I have been to whether, baptist Church of Scotland, methodist, (yes even pentecostal :) ) and Anglican have welcomed not only homosexuals but all sinners :) amen for grace :) and it is hoped that they hear the gosel and it transforms their lives nto 'Christlikeness' don't we all want to see that?

I agree some christians and some churches go to far in how they treat those not born again, however, and I think you hinte at this, that they still need to hear the hard facts that the sinners lifestyle is displeasing to God - yet God himself with his great mercy and grace has in love provided the means throuh his Son to be transformed.

So we are still at the crux..of what actually is the different theology that the 'so called hyper grace' don't like? (by the way Im not comfortable with the title hyer grace either..but all things usually get a name)
 
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I think how you use the word 'grace' is a bit strawman aswell as all churches (well not all) believe in 'it's all of grace' some may not act it, but then who is perfect.. I remember an old saying " if you find a perfect church, don't go to it as you wil ruin it" ;)


Anyhow, any church I have been to whether, baptist Church of Scotland, methodist, (yes even pentecostal :) ) and Anglican have welcomed not only homosexuals but all sinners :) amen for grace :) and it is hoped that they hear the gosel and it transforms their lives nto 'Christlikeness' don't we all want to see that?

I agree some christians and some churches go to far in how they treat those not born again, however, and I think you hinte at this, that they still need to hear the hard facts that the sinners lifestyle is displeasing to God - yet God himself with his great mercy and grace has in love provided the means throuh his Son to be transformed.

So we are still at the crux..of what actually is the different theology that the 'so called hyper grace' don't like? (by the way Im not comfortable with the title hyer grace either..but all things usually get a name)
I don't think we are on the same page. You keep repeating the term "strawman", "strawman", and seemingly asking for something like a formalized Statement of Faith so that perhaps you can formulate some contradictory arguing points.

Though I will try to explain how I see some things, I'm just not into that debating kind of stuff. Sorry, you will have to keep poking till you find someone who is.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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I don't think we are on the same page. You keep repeating the term "strawman", "strawman", and seemingly asking for something like a formalized Statement of Faith so that perhaps you can formulate some contradictory arguing points.

Though I will try to explain how I see some things, I'm just not into that debating kind of stuff. Sorry, you will have to keep poking till you find someone who is.

Well you know thats not the case.. I just would like for you to tell me what is the so called hyper grace gospel.. all you have ansered is really some wrong things that some christians have done and made that sound like the majority -- tht is a strawman.

I wasn't asking for a systamized statement, but what is it that is different in the hyper grace theology thats christians have never had before? Ive already pointed out that all christians believe in grace (I know there are exceptions to that).
 
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Well you know thats not the case.. I just would like for you to tell me what is the so called hyper grace gospel.. all you have ansered is really some wrong things that some christians have done and made that sound like the majority -- tht is a strawman.

I wasn't asking for a systamized statement, but what is it that is different in the hyper grace theology thats christians have never had before? Ive already pointed out that all christians believe in grace (I know there are exceptions to that).
Well, even John MacArthur uses the word "Grace" in his church's name, so we know that term really doesn't mean the same thing everywhere. And, as far as I know, there is no official Hyper Grace movement, Gospel, or anything. And I think we both agree that Grace is not "a theology that Christians have never had before." I think it is simply that some people are concentrating on trying to live it more now than possibly has been done before.
 
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Time for some fun...if we are doing "things" or have attitudes like this couple on this video..we might be a bit religious....they are hilarious..I love them..it's only about 2 minutes long..

https://vimeo.com/91637264
 
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ladylynn

Guest
ladylynn: reposted: God bless you too and Hallelujah too!!! Thank you for the post., touched my heart sydlit. Thanks back atcha. That was really sweet, what you said in those other posts.
See?! You're too nice to be all wrapped up in that WoF stuff! Lol ;)


Ok, thanks. So they don't believe Jesus is real then?


Over the years it's become clear to me that if condemnation and guilt are involved, it's not of God. And it goes from there. Is something blocking my access to God? If I say yes., what could possibly do that when Jesus said nothing shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus? So over time it began to dawn on me the battle is in the mind and what I believe about God.

So over the years I've come to see God is for us not against us. So much so He sent His Son. How can humans turn that around and think the way we do about the God? that He is out to get us if we are not walking that fine line and working so much that we are exhausted and scared all the time? Why do we think that being scared of God is a good thing? Where does that come from?

Religion teaches that God is like man... Gets mad and gives us what we deserve., zaps us in the pew if we do something wrong. Was taught that Christians who have some sin un confessed and took communion, would be struck in the pews and there were stories about how over the years this church member or that church member died right there in church building during communion service. (great way to get people to come to church huh?)

Is it any wonder people are not able to accept grace for daily living? And that those who do are accused of having a "neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace"
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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I think alot of the issues seem to get confused by what we all mostly agree with:-


We all agree that regeneration/the christian life etc is all of grace and nothing but, even our own faith is a gift.

We don't believe that one is regenerated/born again by works.

We believe that we are a new man in Christ liberated from the shackles of the sin nature to live the new life in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We also can agree that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ.


My question is this, what is it that you guys of the hyper grace persuasion (or so called hyper grace) think that traditional Christianity has wrong. Now don't label us 'legalists' as that is just a strawman. I do agree, however that there are legalists but they are now fringe (not so maybe 30 or so years ago and not all legalists believe your are saved by works either..just bear that in mind).

If you could put it in your own words over a few paragrahs , please don't copy and paste huge swathes of stuff and links...as no there is no need.
The cross. Exactly what Jesus purchased with His blood and now in Him we are able to walk in (i.e, victory). I think that is what is missing and why there is such an emergence of grace teachings/theology. Too many fall under a gospel that still comes with condemnation, and their sins continue to be a stronghold in their lives and walk.

This is all due to a lack of rene
wing the mind and an understanding of His grace. An ignorance, if you will, of all that was accomplished at the cross and what happens once we place faith in Jesus. The reality, spiritual, that we have now as children of God in the covenant of grace. No condemnation, set free from sin's dominion, and eternally secure in Jesus, our High Priest who intercedes on our behalf.

You ask
what traditional Christianity has wrong (in the eyes of those with a grace persuasion), and if Jesus Christ isn't emphasized it would be their foundation. Again, the complete and total understanding of what was accomplished at the cross (total forgiveness of sin, it has been dealt with) and the veil being broken. Reconciliation made to our heavenly Father and sin is no barrier to because Jesus paid for it already (I.e, no condemnation).

As I've read some
where before, "Jesus broke the veil and religion is trying to sow it back up." That is at the forefront of the issue, the foundation that is Jesus Christ and ignorance (said respectfully) of what He accomplished on our behalf. That is, our total and complete forgiveness that gave the Apostle Paul the boldness to say, "Consider yourselves dead to sin." This is why I subscribe to hyper-grace theology because it is the Gospel truth and it breaks yokes of slavery.
 
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ladylynn

Guest
This has been quite a thread. I can hardly believe how prevalent the attitude is that you have to make yourself as miserable as you can to be worthy of Eternal Life. This is like those modern-day pilgrims who beat and cut themselves while crawling on bare rocks for miles to go worship at a certain place.
Yes Willie., that is the kind of religious spirit I was involved in as you know from our sharing on these forums. People do think that the more sour and miserable a Christian looks the more spiritual they are. SERIOUSLY!!!

Somehow people think that the less joyful and happy and carefree you are the less Godly and heaven minded. When in fact it is the very opposite.


When we cast our care on Jesus, we don't carry those burdens and are following the Good Shepherd. He brings us into green pastures and He leads us He doesn't drive us. What a picture!
But there are many many Christians who say the Good Shepherd beats the sheep for their own good. WACK WACK.... then there is this wacky prevalent teaching that says Jesus breaks the legs of the sheep for their own good. CRACKK.

Christians need to repent of their humanistic idea of Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to give them a revelation of the love of God in Christ so they are able to walk in the JOY of their salvation.

 
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ladylynn

Guest
There are a lot of mis-understandings about the hyper-grace message of the finished work of Christ for us....you can click on anything in blue to take you to the article that discusses what is being said.

The Hyper-Grace Quiz

In the past few months, there has been an aggressive backlash against the gospel of grace. This backlash has been seen in the Christian media, the blogosphere, and in the publication of books by respected Bible teachers. I have come across articles with titles like “Confronting the error of hyper-grace,” “The deception of hyper-grace,” and the oddly-titled, “What’s wrong with grace?”

The authors of these articles typically describe the gospel of grace as a “dangerous teaching,” a “false message,” and “a hyped-up, watered-down, seeker-friendly gospel.” Those who preach it are branded “false prophets,” “antichrists,” and “pied pipers” leading people to hell.

What do these critics have against the gospel of grace?

Their criticisms are numerous: Apparently the grace message is soft on sin. It’s opposed to the law. It’s a prosperity gospel. It’s unbalanced. It’s extreme. It’s a fad.

Some of these criticisms reflect abiding misperceptions (“grace promotes licentiousness”). Some of the criticisms are slanderous (“grace preachers are closet sinners”), while others are risible (“this message was responsible for the rise of Adolph Hitler and the runaway Democratic party”).

Presented with these sorts of claims, it is tempting to dismiss the opponents of the grace message as ill informed and reactionary. But not all of them are.

In January 2014, Dr. Michael L. Brown released a book entitled Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message. In his book, Dr. Brown seeks to correct “some serious distortions and errors” that are being preached as part of what he calls “the modern grace message.” Dr. Brown portrays hyper-grace preachers as being opposed to repentance and the confession of sins, and he claims we think the words of Jesus have no relevance for us today.

Is this true? Do hyper-grace preachers actually think this way?

Since I am one of the hyper-grace preachers identified by Dr. Brown, I thought it might be helpful to respond to these accusations. To be fair, some of his accusations are spot on. On several occasions reading his book I said to myself, “Guilty as charged,” and I did so with a grace-addict’s grin. Still, a number of his accusations are based on misperceptions or they misrepresent what we are actually saying.

For instance, on page 37 of his book, Dr. Brown identifies four statements that he embraces and we, apparently, reject. They are (1) sanctification is progressive, (2) it’s healthy to confess our sins to God, (3) New Testament repentance includes turning away from sins, and (4) the words of Jesus are authoritative.

To three of these claims, most hyper-grace preachers would shout amen! Confession is healthy, repentance is often evidenced by a turning away from sins, and everything Jesus said is good and authoritative. The only claim we would reject out of hand is the first one, that sanctification is a process. (More on this here.)

As Dr. Brown’s book illustrates, much of the criticism made against the hyper-grace gospel and those who preach it is based on misperceptions and misunderstandings. To illustrate this, ask yourself whether the following claims are true or false.

The hyper-grace quiz

True or false…


  1. Hyper-grace preachers are against repentance.
  2. Hyper-grace preachers are against confession.
  3. The hyper-grace gospel is universalism in disguise.
  4. Hyper-grace preachers say it’s wrong to ask God for forgiveness.
  5. Hyper-grace preachers say God is not grieved by your sin.
  6. Hyper-grace preachers are against the law.
  7. Hyper-grace preachers ignore the Old Testament.
  8. Hyper-grace preachers disregard the words of Jesus.
  9. The hyper-grace gospel encourages sin.
  10. The hyper-grace gospel discourages obedience and holy living.
  11. Hyper-grace preachers don’t talk about hell and wrath.
12. The hyper-grace gospel makes people lazy.

To have real dialogue, you need to hear both sides of the story. If your only exposure to the hyper-grace gospel comes from attack articles and Facebook debates, you may think that every statement in the above quiz is true. In fact, every statement is false. Each is either a fiction or a distortion of what the hyper-grace gospel actually says.

We will look at some of these claims in coming posts. But for now, I want to hear from you. Which of the claims above have you heard? Which have you believed?

And what are some other misperceptions you have encountered when telling others about the good news of God’s extreme, over-the-top, and hyper grace?


​THAT WAS AWESOME!!!!
 
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ladylynn

Guest
Here is a sure way to recognize the so called hyper-grace message of Christ.

How to Recognize the Hyper-Grace Gospel

The hyper-grace gospel declares that God’s love for you is unconditional and His grace is superabounding. It’s the how much mores that Jesus spoke of and the grace upon grace that John wrote of.

The hyper-grace gospel is easy to recognize for it is nothing more than boasting about Jesus—who He is and what He has done and what you can now do because of what He has done. If the message you’re hearing causes you to fix your eyes on Jesus, and moves you to shout for joy and give thanksgiving and praise for all He has done, chances are you’re hearing the hyper-grace gospel.

While a mixed-grace gospel is recognized by the presence of carrots and sticks, the hyper-grace gospel is marked by invitations. Here’s one:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” (Matt. 11:28)

Here’s another:

“I want to come in and be with you.” (Rev. 3:20)

A mixed-grace gospel drives people with the law, but the hyper-grace gospel draws them with love. This is how Martin Luther distinguished the two messages:

A lawdriver insists with threats and penalties; a preacher of grace lures and incites with divine goodness and compassion shown to us; for He wants no unwilling works and reluctant services, He wants joyful and delightful services of God.

In a quest for holiness a mixed-grace preacher may preach a little law, a little self-help, or a little pop psychology, but it’s all just a flesh trip. In contrast, a hyper-grace preacher preaches Christ alone. Whatever your need, whether it’s salvation or sanctification, your supply is found in the One who promises to meet all your needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus (Php. 4:19).

It is essential that you learn how to distinguish the hyper-grace gospel from the many mixed-grace messages that may distract you from it. To help you do this, I have prepared a table showing 20 differences between the mixed- and hyper-grace gospels that you can print out and keep in your Bible.

The hyper-grace gospel is simple. You don’t need to read Hebrew or Greek to get it. Nor do you need to go to seminary or Bible school. To paraphrase Joseph Prince, the hyper-grace gospel is so simple it takes theologians to complicate it.

The hyper-grace gospel is the revelation of Jesus. It is the announcement that He is the beginning and the end, the first word and the last. It is the confident assurance that He who has begun a good work in you will carry it on unto completion. It is the happy revelation that in Christ, your searching is over and you have found your eternal resting place. In Him, you are already home.

Jesus is the hyper-grace gospel!


EXACTLY ! ! ! ! ! !
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Is it any wonder people are not able to accept grace for daily living? And that those who do are accused of having a "neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace"
This, though I'm sick of hearing this term thrown around because it's so misused, is a straw man because it grossly mischaracterizes reality. I and many others have walked in the freedom of grace for years. We reject the neo-gnostic abomination of new.modern.hyper grace because it's a perversion of GOD's grace.
 
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I agree...sometimes I think too Ben is that we as "Christians" say things because mentally we know it is true..for example..Take the term " We are not saved by our works..we all know that "....we make mental assent to the truth of that because it can't be denied ( Eph 2:8-9 )..this verse spells it out clear.

But what happens in some cases is that people say " we are not saved by works "..but their words say the opposite....they add in the "if's"....if you don't persevere to the end....if you sin..if this..if that...you will not be saved ( which means the works you do or don't do )...to us grace believers..this nullifies the " by grace you are saved "...I think all people view scripture through a particular "lens"...sometimes it's with the Old Covenant mindset and other times it is with the New Covenant and a lot of times it's with a mixture of both thrown in..

SO, my take on all this is that we can say we agree with scripture "mentally with assent " but in actual practice we are saying sometimes the opposite. What is your take on that?


The cross. Exactly what Jesus purchased with His blood and now in Him we are able to walk in (i.e, victory). I think that is what is missing and why there is such an emergence of grace teachings/theology. Too many fall under a gospel that still comes with condemnation, and their sins continue to be a stronghold in their lives and walk.

This is all due to a lack of rene
wing the mind and an understanding of His grace. An ignorance, if you will, of all that was accomplished at the cross and what happens once we place faith in Jesus. The reality, spiritual, that we have now as children of God in the covenant of grace. No condemnation, set free from sin's dominion, and eternally secure in Jesus, our High Priest who intercedes on our behalf.

You ask
what traditional Christianity has wrong (in the eyes of those with a grace persuasion), and if Jesus Christ isn't emphasized it would be their foundation. Again, the complete and total understanding of what was accomplished at the cross (total forgiveness of sin, it has been dealt with) and the veil being broken. Reconciliation made to our heavenly Father and sin is no barrier to because Jesus paid for it already (I.e, no condemnation).

As I've read some
where before, "Jesus broke the veil and religion is trying to sow it back up." That is at the forefront of the issue, the foundation that is Jesus Christ and ignorance (said respectfully) of what He accomplished on our behalf. That is, our total and complete forgiveness that gave the Apostle Paul the boldness to say, "Consider yourselves dead to sin." This is why I subscribe to hyper-grace theology because it is the Gospel truth and it breaks yokes of slavery.
 
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Over the years it's become clear to me that if condemnation and guilt are involved, it's not of God.
Let us step back a bit and look at what is at stake here. Sin is evil. It is destructive and a rebellion against the creator.
Man is doomed to destruction because of sin. The only hope is when God send messenger to warn the people of their destination because of their behaviour. The response acceptable to God is repentance, humbleness and asking God for forgiveness while commiting yourself to stop sinning.

Time after time incidents are played out in scripture, Jonah being the classic example.
Jesus preached the same, and the apostles.

But now all of this is not of God. If this is true the God ladylynn is following is not Jesus.
Your righteousness has to be greater than that of the pharisees and sadduces or your behaviour has to be better.

If you do not know what this means, I suggest you learn before you find yourself on the wrong side of the Lord.

Now I am supposed to be talking to christians, but this is a long way from simple Jesus reality.
 
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Seared Consciences

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
1 Tim 4:1-2

Does your conscience matter? Above everything else your conscience is you barometer of where you stand.
Jesus cleanses our consciences of the stain of sin.

Let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:22

I speak the truth in Christ – I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit –
Rom 9:1

Your conscience is your barometer of how you are walking with Jesus.
Paul was very conscious of the importance of adjusting your behaviour not to upset the conscience of another christian.

When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
1 Cor 8:12

Any teacher or person sharing which down plays or condemns listening to your conscience is as Paul would describe
"Such teachings come through hypocritical liars."

He links such ideas to "deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Look into the spiritual background of such people and their emphasis is very much on visions, spiritual encounters with beings other than the Holy Spirit, and doctrines and ideas spoken from these spiritual sources.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Wow, I just saw something.

On this account, [the gnostics] tell us that it is necessary for us [of the Church] whom they call animal men, and describe as being of the world, to practise continence and good works, that by this means we may attain at length to the intermediate habitation [of heaven], but that to [the gnostics] who are called "the spiritual and perfect" such a course of conduct is not at all necessary. For it is not conduct of any kind which leads into the Pleroma [heaven], but [it is] the seed sent forth thence [from heaven] in a feeble, immature state, and here [on earth] brought to perfection.

Brought to perfection through special gnosis, or shall we say, the right "lens".
Why is it that you cannot see that what he is saying is that the Gnostics were errantly claiming for themselves what rightfully belongs only to believers, and at the same time denying that it was for those it rightfully belongs to?
This sequence of posts happened on another thread, but I wanted to bring them here because the latter post is essentially a confession that yes, new.modern.hyper grace beliefs are identical with gnostic beliefs.

The gist of the post is that the gnostics were wrong because they believed their teachings pertained to them instead of the church, to whom such teachings rightfully belonged.

Congratulations are in order! This entry qualifies for the neo-gnostic new.modern.hyper grace Hall of Fame