The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

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Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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This is the endure part, before the great tribulation. All the disciples are killed, except John

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

This is when the church was to flee. When they saw the Roman solders. They fled over the mountains of Judea to Pella.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

This is the great tribulation., the siege of Jerusalem where 93% of the population is wiped out.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

This is the return of Christ's presence. The Roman forces broke through ending the siege.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
If you are claiming a first-century fulfilment of all these things. No.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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The apostles expected the Resurrection/Rapture in their lifetimes, therefore Peter said what is quoted above. That would also have triggered the end of all things. However, as we know from Romans 11:25, God has a specific large number of Gentiles who must be added to the Church before it is completed. So over 2,000 have gone by. But the Resurrection/Rapture is still imminent. Which means it could even be today or tomorrow.
I wonder where they got the idea that it would happen in their lifetime and how they could have been so badly misinformed. Hmm. It's all any of them could talk about. You know what's funny, the next wave of Christian leaders, Ignatius, Polycarp, etc., they don't breath a word about Christ returning. If you read their writings, it's almost as if He returned already so they stopped talking about it. Oh wait, Ignatius does say that Christ returned and raised them from the dead. It must have been a typo because Nehemiah6 missed it.

9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live
apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being
His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
6,986
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If you are claiming a first-century fulfilment of all these things. No.
I claim it because Christ said He would return to that generation and all His disciples understood that as well. But I guess you would rather follow and believe in the traditions of man instead of our Lord and Savior because He was pretty clear on the subject.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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You can stop declaring "false accusations" and pushing DOCTRINE over Bible study. No one should study the Bible under compulsion to squeeze an extra-biblical narrative with into it. You could make almost anything fit if you study that way.

I was taught the Pre-trib rapture as a young Christian and for years afterwords. I know what it is.

It has more holes than a Swiss cheese. It isn't compatible with The Bible . It is worked into the bible as a doctrine.
A work of the flesh.
If you think the tribulation is some future, global event, then your views have as many holes as those you just chastised. This is what the early church thought concerning Mat 24:

Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.

1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.

2. His words are as follows:644 “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword,645 and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain.646 But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt,647 while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.648

4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian,649 in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:650

5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”

6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says,651 “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again:652 “When ye shall see Jerusalem com142passed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.653


8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst,654 it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.

9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord,655 were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.

10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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"our verses"

The Bible verses don't belong to pre-trib theorists.
Pre-trib only uses about four verses taken out of context and mutilated.

It completely ignores the instructions of Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter & John to ENDURE.
The church is advised to prepare for endurance during the GT not to prepare for early escape from it.
We are NEVER told to expect an early departure before the return of The Lord in glory.

The only place a post tribulation return of Jesus is impossible is in a pre-tribulation story.
It's not impossible in the Biblical narrative.
I can't accept accept the pre-trib story superimposed over the Biblical picture.
Well said. God has over and over preserved His people through tribulation, and the coming Great Tribulation will be no different.

As that time nears, some will die a martyr's death, as in every age before, that their blood might be "seed for the Gospel"...but when Antichrist's "Final Solution" Death Decree (Hitler would have been proud) is pronounced against those who refuse to go along with the iniquitous majority, it is then that the Door of Mercy slams shut on the Hinges of Grace and mankind's probation comes to a close, not another drop of Gospel seed blood will be sewn, and the Great Tribulation will fall upon mankind with unspeakable horror in the form of the 7 Last Plagues, but God's people shall be delivered.
 

Phoneman-777

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We can be thankful that God has revealed to us the DIFFERENCE between that multitude and the 144,000 redeemed Jews --children of Israel -- representing Israel. So please take careful note of how they are distinguished from each other:

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (Rev 7:4)

So that there is no ambiguity whatsoever, the Holy Spirit says "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". Which means the twelve tribes of Israel.

But then the Church is distinguished from this group as below with "AFTER THIS": After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Now do you see how THOROUGHLY CONFUSED you are with your method of allegorical/symbolical/ imaginary interpretation is?
And I am so thankful that God has prophecy teachers like myself who understand that Dispensationalism is a false idea invented by J. N. Darby after he was seduced by Jesuit Futurism like so many today, and that "Israel" is symbolic for what Paul calls "Abraham's Seed" -- the Church.

Jesuit Futurists stubbornly strive to put a difference between Jew and Gentile when the Bible says there is none.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Thanks, brother, as do you. :) I ain't perfect, but my motives are. Some want to help others out of their rusty trap of doctrinal deception, but when that help is resisted, they not only leave them to starve to death, but wish upon them an excruciating bout of tetanus in the meantime. That ain't me. Opened eyes makes up for all the scratching and clawing and cursing, y'know?
I don't claim to know everything but what I do find is that I'm FAR MORE acquainted with Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism then any of you all are acquainted with Protestant Historicism, and to me that's sad...because it's like trying to solve a murder case while tossing aside half the evidence before it even has a chance to speak...y'know, like they do when they cover for the elite pedophile Luciferians who run everything, right? LOL
I am familiar enough from Protestant Historicism to reject it even though I am a Protestant and admirer of Martin Luther. Your view has been proven false on several occasions by your earlier leaders predicting the end of the world, which never happened. An example of this comes from post-reformation Britain in the works of Charles Wesley, who predicted that the end of the world would occur in 1794. He based this date on his analysis of the Book of Revelation. How did that turn out? Then you have Adam Clarke, whose commentary was published in 1831, proposed a possible date of 2015 for the end of the papal power. Guess what? We still have a pope.

In 19th-century America, William Miller, a renown Historicist, proposed that the end of the world would occur on October 22, 1844, based on a historicist model used with Daniel 8:14. Of course the idiot didn't realize that this passage dealt with the cleansing of the temple following Antiochus IV Epiphanes abominable sacrifice of a pig on the alter in the 160s BC. Had Miller recognized history, he would have saved himself a great deal of embarrassment, don't you think Gapper? Miller's historicist approach to the Book of Daniel spawned a national movement in the United States known as Millerism. After the Great Disappointment some of the Millerites eventually organized the Seventh-Day Adventist Church which is where we find you Mr. Gapper. The SDA continues to maintain a historicist reading of biblical prophecy as essential to its eschatology. Millerites also formed other Adventist bodies, including the one that spawned the Watch Tower movement, better known as Jehovah's Witnesses, who hold to their own unique historicist interpretations of Bible prophecy. Since the spawning of the SDA church was ill-informed, why should we trust your views now?

While I admire Luther and the reformers in general because of my German heritage and because my forefathers came from the Protestant camp which was greatly persecuted by the Catholics of that day, I have to reject their historicist belief system. My ancestors were Lutheran (who are largely preterists today), and Quakers as William Penn is my 2nd cousin (10X removed). My 10X GGF was one of the Original 13 founders of Germantown/Pennsylvania, so I come from that camp, but I digress. Luther, and many of the other reformers were in life and death struggles with the Catholics thus this greatly influenced their thinking that the RCC was the Beast and the AC would be a pope. It is natural to internalize things when you are enduring great suffering and to assign bogyman status to your tormentors, so I get it.

Bottom line is this, historicism and futurism deny Christ's prediction that He would return to His generation to repay them for crucifying Him. Both deny the comfort and vengeance promised the Thessalonians and take this for themselves. Both keep the OT saints in Hades apart from God even though Christ restored their connection to God. Both see a future return of Christ to punish some future wicked generation without being able to tell us how this future wickedness could be worst than the greatest sin ever committed, that being the Murder of God's only Son. As I said, the Jesuits did not invent Preterism, Christ and His disciples did and many of the wiser early church leaders held this view. Sadly, as the church aged, many lost this early belief system rooted in the Gospels and went off following modern traditions of man.
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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You can stop declaring "false accusations" and pushing DOCTRINE over Bible study. No one should study the Bible under compulsion to squeeze an extra-biblical narrative with into it. You could make almost anything fit if you study that way.

I was taught the Pre-trib rapture as a young Christian and for years afterwords. I know what it is.

It has more holes than a Swiss cheese. It isn't compatible with The Bible . It is worked into the bible as a doctrine.
A work of the flesh.
An example of how stubborn pre-trib folks are is this case in point: They claim the Lord's coming as a thief in the night to rapture the saints just before the 7 years tribulation...I said, "Hey guys, 2 Peter 3:10 KJV says when the Lord comes a thief, there ain't gonna be seven more minutes let alone seven more years, because the Earth's gonna look like a bazillion nukes detonated". Their response? I kid you not:

"THE LORD IS COMING BACK AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT TWO TIMES,
FIRST AT THE RAPTURE AND THEN SEVEN YEARS LATER
AT HIS SECOND COMING."

The Bible says, "Come, now, let us reason together" so I appealed to their sense of reason:
  • The "left behind" fake news will have a "7 years tribulation" countdown clock at the top of the screen
  • They'll be a spectacular "Jesus Ball" drop at Times Square a la New Year's Eve
  • Don King will launch his greatest event promotion ever
  • Ticketmaster and Stubhub tickets will sell out years before the event
  • Beyonce, Kanye, Alice Cooper, and J. Beiber will be among the "Christian" headliners
  • They'll launch the "Ready Or Not Here I Come!" 24 hour cable channel variety show
  • The Sham Wow guy will be pitching SPF 1,000,000 for those concerned with "the brightness of His coming"
  • Government PSAs will be warning people to avoid falling rocks and mountains during the final week
  • Life insurance premiums will skyrocket into oblivion
  • Sales of green bananas will plummet during the final week
Then I asked in light of all this, how the flip will ANYBODY be surprised by Jesus coming a second time? So far, only one guy commented and all he said was, "well that "Jesus Ball" thing was just blasphemous..."
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Well said. God has over and over preserved His people through tribulation, and the coming Great Tribulation will be no different.

As that time nears, some will die a martyr's death, as in every age before, that their blood might be "seed for the Gospel"...but when Antichrist's "Final Solution" Death Decree (Hitler would have been proud) is pronounced against those who refuse to go along with the iniquitous majority, it is then that the Door of Mercy slams shut on the Hinges of Grace and mankind's probation comes to a close, not another drop of Gospel seed blood will be sewn, and the Great Tribulation will fall upon mankind with unspeakable horror in the form of the 7 Last Plagues, but God's people shall be delivered.
The on-going error with this interpretation, is that the tribulation that is coming will be the time of God's unprecedented wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well the plagues that the two witnesses bring. It is this coming wrath that the church is not appointed to suffer and that because Christ already suffered on behalf of each and every believer, satisfying it completely.

To be clear, when the apostles and first century believers were being thrown to the lions, made into human candles, boiled in oil, skinned, etc., it was not because of God's wrath, but was because of their testimony of Jesus and the word of God, which came at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. In opposition, what will be coming upon the earth will be God's direct wrath. It is the latter that we has believers are not appointed to suffer.

Because Jesus already suffered the wrath of God which every believer deserves, then the requirement has been satisfied and no further wrath is required.

Those who will be exposed to God's wrath, will be those saints who will become believers after the church as been gathered, referred to in Revelation 7:9-17 as the great tribulation saints, the unbelieving remnant of Israel, and of course all who have rejected Christ.

By the way, the 7 last plagues, i.e. the bowl judgments, are not the only plagues of wrath. The fact that the seven bowl judgments are called 'last' demonstrates that other wrath must come before them. which will be the 7 seals and the 7 trumpet judgments.

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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And I am so thankful that God has prophecy teachers like myself who understand that Dispensationalism is a false idea invented by J. N. Darby after he was seduced by Jesuit Futurism like so many today, and that "Israel" is symbolic for what Paul calls "Abraham's Seed" -- the Church.

Jesuit Futurists stubbornly strive to put a difference between Jew and Gentile when the Bible says there is none.
It's not putting a difference between Jew and Gentile, but between Jew and Gentile who make up the church and the unbelieving nation of Israel. It is the latter that God is going to deal with during the tribulation period. It is these who are collectively called the woman of Revelation 12 who will be cared for by God out in the wilderness during that last 3 1/2 years.

Gathered Prior to God's wrath:

The church = Made up of both Jew and Gentile, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air prior to the first seal being opened (which initiates God's wrath), in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and I Thess. 4:13-18

Those on earth during the time of God's wrath:

The Male Child = A collective name representing the 144,000 Israelites who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah and who will come out of the unbelieving nation of Israel, i.e. gives birth to.

The great tribulation saints = Gentiles who become believers after the church is gathered and during the time of God's wrath

The unbelieving nation of Israel = Those who will have continued to reject Jesus as their Messiah and who continue under the law. It is during that last 3 1/2 years the woman/Israel will also acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah.
 

Phoneman-777

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I am familiar enough from Protestant Historicism to reject it even though I am a Protestant and admirer of Martin Luther. Your view has been proven false on several occasions by your earlier leaders predicting the end of the world, which never happened.
True Protestants protest Papal falsehoods - they don't defend Jesuit nonsense as you so passionately defend 16th century Jesuit Luis Alcazar's Preterist ideas. Miller was never my leader nor a prophet, but a pioneer who fought to awaken a reluctant "post-millennium return of Jesus" Christian world to the reality of His soon coming, which it didn't even begin to accept until Billy Graham began preaching it. Miller confused the "sanctuary" of Daniel 8 with the Earth, as many around the world did - a logical mistake for those who do not understand that Daniel was referring to the Heavenly Sanctuary in which is our High Priest.

An example of this comes from post-reformation Britain in the works of Charles Wesley, who predicted that the end of the world would occur in 1794. He based this date on his analysis of the Book of Revelation. How did that turn out? Then you have Adam Clarke, whose commentary was published in 1831, proposed a possible date of 2015 for the end of the papal power. Guess what? We still have a pope.
None of the Reformers claimed to be prophets, just sincere Bible believers. Will you throw out Matthew, Mark, and John - men who remained in the bosom of Jesus for 3 1/2 years and STILL got stuff wrong? No, you'll promote them as prophets, but condemn the Reformers who had only the Word constructed of leather and paper and vellum to embrace.
In 19th-century America, William Miller, a renown Historicist, proposed that the end of the world would occur on October 22, 1844, based on a historicist model used with Daniel 8:14. Of course the idiot didn't realize that this passage dealt with the cleansing of the temple following Antiochus IV Epiphanes abominable sacrifice of a pig on the alter in the 160s BC.
I could shred your argument six ways to Sunday about "Antiochus the Chump" as being the Little Horn of Daniel 8, but that's another discussion. Again, Miller was no prophet nor was he an "idiot", just someone who got a little ahead of God in his eschatology.
Had Miller recognized history, he would have saved himself a great deal of embarrassment, don't you think Gapper?
It was a mistake in hermenuetics, not a misunderstandings about Antiochus the Chump which led to the Millerite disappointment, and the only gaps I recognize are the gaps in Jesuit Preterist logic.

Miller's historicist approach to the Book of Daniel spawned a national movement in the United States known as Millerism. After the Great Disappointment some of the Millerites eventually organized the Seventh-Day Adventist Church which is where we find you Mr. Gapper. The SDA continues to maintain a historicist reading of biblical prophecy as essential to its eschatology. Millerites also formed other Adventist bodies, including the one that spawned the Watch Tower movement, better known as Jehovah's Witnesses, who hold to their own unique historicist interpretations of Bible prophecy. Since the spawning of the SDA church was ill-informed, why should we trust your views now?
Again, the only gaps I see are gaps in you Jesuit Preterist logic. Peter was a racist. Paul was a murderous zealot. And NONE of the disciples believed Jesus rose on the third day. A person should be judged on the truth they carry now, not the mistakes abandoned after learning from them. Doctrines stands or fall based on Biblical scrutiny, and your Jesuit Preterism falls on its face like a worn out Hemi with fouled plugs and bad gas.
While I admire Luther and the reformers in general because of my German heritage and because my forefathers came from the Protestant camp which was greatly persecuted by the Catholics of that day, I have to reject their historicist belief system. My ancestors were Lutheran (who are largely preterists today), and Quakers as William Penn is my 2nd cousin (10X removed). My 10X GGF was one of the Original 13 founders of Germantown/Pennsylvania, so I come from that camp, but I digress.
It's no secret that Protestantism is going home to mother, and has been marching there for some time. Having a knowledge of Antichrist doctrine and corrupted Protestant doctrine does not amount to a knowledge of Protestant Historicism.
Luther, and many of the other reformers were in life and death struggles with the Catholics thus this greatly influenced their thinking that the RCC was the Beast and the AC would be a pope. It is natural to internalize things when you are enduring great suffering and to assign bogyman status to your tormentors, so I get it.
At least they had the wherewithal to not succumb to the eschatological Stockholm Syndrome with which Jesuit Preterists suffer. You guys are so naive to think a religious system that can't even gain a proper position on something so elementary as "sola Scriptura" was somehow able to get end times prophecy right (well, not really, since fellow Jesuit Ribera authored Futurism).
Bottom line is this, historicism and futurism deny Christ's prediction that He would return to His generation to repay them for crucifying Him. Both deny the comfort and vengeance promised the Thessalonians and take this for themselves. Both keep the OT saints in Hades apart from God even though Christ restored their connection to God. Both see a future return of Christ to punish some future wicked generation without being able to tell us how this future wickedness could be worst than the greatest sin ever committed, that being the Murder of God's only Son. As I said, the Jesuits did not invent Preterism, Christ and His disciples did and many of the wiser early church leaders held this view. Sadly, as the church aged, many lost this early belief system rooted in the Gospels and went off following modern traditions of man.
Protestant Historicism denies nothing while Jesuit Preterism denies both Biblical truth and common sense.
 

Phoneman-777

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Aug 3, 2019
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I wonder where they got the idea that it would happen in their lifetime and how they could have been so badly misinformed. Hmm. It's all any of them could talk about. You know what's funny, the next wave of Christian leaders, Ignatius, Polycarp, etc., they don't breath a word about Christ returning. If you read their writings, it's almost as if He returned already so they stopped talking about it. Oh wait, Ignatius does say that Christ returned and raised them from the dead. It must have been a typo because Nehemiah6 missed it.

9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live
apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being
His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.
Wait, you'll reject the "remarkable unanimity" with which all the ECFs who commented spoke on the identity of the Restrainer - THE PAGAN ROMAN EMPIRE - unanimity in their future expectation of the rise of an Antichrist which would be destroyed by the "brightness" of the coming of Christ which destroys the Jesuit Preterist argument that all prophecy was fulfilled before the close of the 1st century...but you'll cling to one singular, obscure, and ambiguous ("disciple" can refer to OT figures, as in Isaiah 8:16: "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples.") reference? Can you see the glaring inconsistency?

Please show us which ECFs wrote that Christ already came. Oh, you mean you can't find a single line in all their writings concerning what would have been the fulfillment of the greatest prophecy, the "blessed hope", the Second Coming of Jesus?
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Sure looks like a misunderstanding. There was no general resurrection at that time.
How would anyone in our physical realm know if Christ returned with His key and unlocked Hades, freed the captives allowing them to go to heaven since all of that would happen in the spiritual realm. You do realize that this is what the resurrection was all about, not the regeneration of decayed bodies? Regardless, Nero may have witnessed it when he saw phantoms coming out of the earth, and going up towards heaven. The timing would have been about right.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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True Protestants protest Papal falsehoods - they don't defend Jesuit nonsense as you so passionately defend 16th century Jesuit Luis Alcazar's Preterist ideas. Miller was never my leader nor a prophet, but a pioneer who fought to awaken a reluctant "post-millennium return of Jesus" Christian world to the reality of His soon coming, which it didn't even begin to accept until Billy Graham began preaching it. Miller confused the "sanctuary" of Daniel 8 with the Earth, as many around the world did - a logical mistake for those who do not understand that Daniel was referring to the Heavenly Sanctuary in which is our High Priest.

None of the Reformers claimed to be prophets, just sincere Bible believers. Will you throw out Matthew, Mark, and John - men who remained in the bosom of Jesus for 3 1/2 years and STILL got stuff wrong? No, you'll promote them as prophets, but condemn the Reformers who had only the Word constructed of leather and paper and vellum to embrace.
I could shred your argument six ways to Sunday about "Antiochus the Chump" as being the Little Horn of Daniel 8, but that's another discussion. Again, Miller was no prophet nor was he an "idiot", just someone who got a little ahead of God in his eschatology.
It was a mistake in hermenuetics, not a misunderstandings about Antiochus the Chump which led to the Millerite disappointment, and the only gaps I recognize are the gaps in Jesuit Preterist logic.

Again, the only gaps I see are gaps in you Jesuit Preterist logic. Peter was a racist. Paul was a murderous zealot. And NONE of the disciples believed Jesus rose on the third day. A person should be judged on the truth they carry now, not the mistakes abandoned after learning from them. Doctrines stands or fall based on Biblical scrutiny, and your Jesuit Preterism falls on its face like a worn out Hemi with fouled plugs and bad gas.
It's no secret that Protestantism is going home to mother, and has been marching there for some time. Having a knowledge of Antichrist doctrine and corrupted Protestant doctrine does not amount to a knowledge of Protestant Historicism.
At least they had the wherewithal to not succumb to the eschatological Stockholm Syndrome with which Jesuit Preterists suffer. You guys are so naive to think a religious system that can't even gain a proper position on something so elementary as "sola Scriptura" was somehow able to get end times prophecy right (well, not really, since fellow Jesuit Ribera authored Futurism).
Protestant Historicism denies nothing while Jesuit Preterism denies both Biblical truth and common sense.
Read your rebuttal. Wish I had more time to slay your views my brother, but have to go boil some lobsters. Will be back at ya in the morning buddy, and I do mean that:):):). Regardless of our differing views, we are all going to heaven if we are true repentant believers and I am not in a position to judge even the crazy Jesuit Catholic types as much as I have disdain for many of their ways and views, except preterism which apparently they got right and I didn't even know they believed that until you told me. Again, the Jesuits didn't start Preterism, Christ did and the disciples echoed it and several of the early church fathers did also.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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True Protestants protest Papal falsehoods - they don't defend Jesuit nonsense as you so passionately defend 16th century Jesuit Luis Alcazar's Preterist ideas.
Here's the thing Phoneman, you keep ranting about those of us who have been deceived by Jesuits. However, in order to do that one would have to be a follower of them. The fact is that, all of my conclusions are based on the whole of scripture and not on any Jesuit teachings. You'd have to be reading their teachings in order to be followers of them of which I have read zero of.

In the same way, neither Darby nor MacDonald or any of these other people mentioned, are the originators of the Lord coming to gather His church prior to the tribulation period. But it is revealed via the word of God through Paul. You and others continue to ignore the underlying principal, which is that Christ already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Based on this alone, the church cannot be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath. Yet you and others continue to put the church through the same punishment and wrath that is destined for a wicked, Christ rejecting world.

I could shred your argument six ways to Sunday about "Antiochus the Chump" as being the Little Horn of Daniel 8, but that's another discussion." Again, Miller was no prophet nor was he an "idiot", just someone who got a little ahead of God in his eschatology.
It was a mistake in hermenuetics, not a misunderstandings about Antiochus the Chump which led to the Millerite disappointment, and the only gaps I recognize are the gaps in Jesuit Preterist logic.
You can't shred anything, because you don't know the word of God and you ignore scripture when it is presented to you. What you do know is the false teachings of men which you continue to reveal by the claims that you're making. They give you away! You see, we have heard all of these before and have contended against them. You're not bringing any new false teaching here that we haven't already heard.

Again, the only gaps I see are gaps in you Jesuit Preterist logic. Peter was a racist. Paul was a murderous zealot. And NONE of the disciples believed Jesus rose on the third day. A person should be judged on the truth they carry now, not the mistakes abandoned after learning from them. Doctrines stands or fall based on Biblical scrutiny, and your Jesuit Preterism falls on its face like a worn out Hemi with fouled plugs and bad gas.

It's no secret that Protestantism is going home to mother, and has been marching there for some time. Having a knowledge of Antichrist doctrine and corrupted Protestant doctrine does not amount to a knowledge of Protestant Historicism.
At least they had the wherewithal to not succumb to the eschatological Stockholm Syndrome with which Jesuit Preterists suffer. You guys are so naive to think a religious system that can't even gain a proper position on something so elementary as "sola Scriptura" was somehow able to get end times prophecy right (well, not really, since fellow Jesuit Ribera authored Futurism).
Protestant Historicism denies nothing while Jesuit Preterism denies both Biblical truth and common sense.
Just FYI, Jesuit priests did not write the word of God.

True deception is when you don't even know you're being deceived.

My advise to you, is to abandon the false teachings of men that you have adopted and rely only upon the word of God.
 

Phoneman-777

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The on-going error with this interpretation, is that the tribulation that is coming will be the time of God's unprecedented wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well the plagues that the two witnesses bring.
That interpretation violates the prophetic timeline, which is easily and irrefutably shown from Scripture:
  1. Jesus ascended to the Heavenly Sanctuary
  2. Daniel said "unto 2,300 Days, then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed"
  3. The 70 Weeks makes sense only as symbolic time, from Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. "commandment" to "Messiah"
  4. The 70 Weeks were cut off from the 2,300 Days making the starting date for both is 457 B.C.
  5. The OT "cleansing of the Sanctuary" saw the high priest move from Holy Place to the Most Holy Place.
  6. Counting 2,300 symbolic days - literal years - from 457 B.C. brings the timeline down to 1844 A.D.
  7. Only one literal Sanctuary stood at that time with our One and only great High Priest to cleanse it
  8. The OT pattern has Jesus moving from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in 1844 to cleanse it
Before each prophecy is given to John, Jesus' location in the Heavenly Sanctuary is described
either explicitly or implicitly.

Therefore, when Jesus is depicted in the Holy Place, those prophecies begin to unfold BEFORE 1844, and conversely, when in the Most Holy Place, unfold AFTER 1844. The Seven Churches, Seals, and Trumpets began unfolding in John's day and continue down to our day, with the Church living in the Laodicean Age, the opening of the 6th Seal, and the sounding of the 6th Trumpet.
 

Nehemiah6

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That interpretation violates the prophetic timeline, which is easily and irrefutably shown from Scripture
Why not make the Heavenly Sanctuary and the High Priest also *symbolic*? Then we can spin any fantasy we wish. The SDA Church certainly put its spin on Bible prophecy.
 

Phoneman-777

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You can't shred anything, because you don't know the word of God and you ignore scripture when it is presented to you.
I can recognize the many inconsistencies of Jesuit Futurism, such as you guys insisting Jesus comes twice as a thief. I assure you, if you want to get into a discussion about whether Antiochus the Chump fits the description of the Little Horn of Daniel 8, I am more than happy to oblige ;)
Just FYI, Jesuit priests did not write the word of God.
I never said they did. What I said is that Jesuits invented two false eschatological interpretations - Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism - that the great Protestant Reformers obliterated and sent underground until they were all dead, Protestants stopped protesting, and non-Catholics like yourself began standing up in defense of those centuries old Jesuit heresies.
True deception is when you don't even know you're being deceived. My advise to you, is to abandon the false teachings of men that you have adopted and rely only upon the word of God.
I appreciate your concern, but I would rather cling to Protestant Historicism than join forces with Satan's agents of disinformation which are headquartered in Rome.
 

Phoneman-777

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Read your rebuttal. Wish I had more time to slay your views my brother, but have to go boil some lobsters. Will be back at ya in the morning buddy, and I do mean that:):):). Regardless of our differing views, we are all going to heaven if we are true repentant believers and I am not in a position to judge even the crazy Jesuit Catholic types as much as I have disdain for many of their ways and views, except preterism which apparently they got right and I didn't even know they believed that until you told me. Again, the Jesuits didn't start Preterism, Christ did and the disciples echoed it and several of the early church fathers did also.
I agree...that's why I know sincere Christians will do what God says when it comes time to do it. When the Papal Mark comes upon the world, you''ll say, "Dang, how did Kev know???!!!" and then you'll believe and prepare to resist it ;)