The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
63
He did not return so as "every eye shall see Him" which pertains to "all the tribes of the Earth" and not just the one single Jewish tribe whose members were scattered abroad after the fall of Jerusalem.
Including those who pierced Him? Who do you suppose they were and when and where would He have to return for those who pierced Him to see Him?
 
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
63
Sorry I missed the question. I'm not sure what visions and indiscernible OOB experiences have to do with the subject..I mean, John saw a great multitude stand on a sea of glass, but they weren't standing there when he saw it, right? It was a vision.
Hi there Gapper,

Was it a vision or was he raptured?

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches.

Since John was in the spirit, he literally was in the spiritual realm AKA "Heaven." He wasn't a "spirit in the material world" when He encountered Jesus. Jesus was talking to Him so if John was on Earth then Jesus Had returned, correct? That would be 4 returns of Christ. Heck, if He is going to return so often, He may as well just stay and maybe get a room at the King David until VCO's new temple is ready:):):).

I'm not sure what visions and indiscernible OOB experiences have to do with the subject
BTW, you answered my question with a question, another common tactic of one losing a debate. Who said anything about an OOB? The passage said the man Paul knew (around 41 AD) was caught up (harpazo or raptured) to the third heaven. It is the same harpazo found in 1 Thes 4. So I ask again:

How is it that a man who died in 41 AD is raptured to heaven if the rapture is to be a future, one-time global event?
 
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
63
Brother, the 12 tribes of Revelation are symbolic. The ten tribes are lost and Benjamin was long ago absorbed by Judah. They have had thousands of years to dilute their bloodline so that none remain. Even the Jews of today are thought to actually be descendants of the pagan Russian Khazarian Empire and no Jews at all.

Yes, there are movements today where people claim to be the "true Israel of God"...Herbert Armstong's British Israel Movement, the colossal joke that is the Black Hebrew Israelite Movement...even Rastafari claimed to be a direct descendant of "black" Abraham, "black" Isaac, and "black" Jacob, and to be the leader of the "black Israel race" (which proves irrefutably that the most confused individual on the planet is a White Rastafarian).
Gapper,

What are they symbolic of?
 
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
63
I got stuck here "Unfortunately, Christians have been fooled by the Jesuits into accepting a false interpretation of prophecy which says there will be seven years from the "secret rapture" These people? "The Society of Jesus is a religious order of the Catholic Church headquartered in Rome. It was founded by Ignatius of Loyola and six companions with the approval of Pope Paul III in 1540 "

I can't find it written "caught up" happens the same time Christ sets foot on the earth. Now those that are watching ready when He comes to get His own. See when Christ or in truth GOD says something it will happen. This so far never has -->He said He went back to make us a home yes or no? He said I will come back and receive you unto my self so WHERE (we know where He is right now in heaven) He is we will be.

We read this stuff as if when it was written all the NT was written. There was no NT when Christ said any of this. There was no NT when Paul wrote his 1st letter to Thessalonians. I take it as the holy Spirit through Paul said "we which remain". Not going to sit here and be foolish and say "what Paul was really saying was". :)

I hear "post caught up" from man not the word of God. Then so many times "we need to be tested". Yet I guess those that DIE before all that are SO BLESSED huh. They never had to be tested lol. Then I think POST people believe the great tribulation is either one day or its going to be as it is now. NOT even close. Far worse then anything in history. And if we can't live for Jesus now.. we NEVER will then.

I read what Jesus told the 12 and them Pauls 1st letter with "we which remain". He put him in that moment caught up happens. He didn't know when. And we do? No... so as they did I do.. watch for Him now. I am ready now. Some are not. So when it happens it will be as a thief in the night. Where Christ comes and takes not steals but takes what is His and no one even knew He came.

Ever watch the NEWS and whats being reported? Do you know how many believe "nothing bad is happening right now" hmm
Now those that are watching ready when He comes to get His own.
Who were told to watch?

1. The disciples were told to watch (Mat 24:42, 25:13)

2. The Corinthians were told to watch (1 Cor 16:13)

3. The Ephesians were told to watch (Eph 6:18)

4. The Thessalonians were told to watch (1 Thes 5:6)

5. Timothy was told to watch (2 Tim 4:5)

6. The Jews of the Diaspora were told to watch (1 Pet 4:7)

- here Peter says, "But the end of all things is at hand." Really? Did the world end?

7. The Church in Sardis was told to watch (Rev 3:2)

8. More broadly, the 7 Churches of Asia Minor were told to watch (Rev 16:15)

What do all these groups have in common? They were all first century people. If Christ's return doesn't happen for at least 2,000 or more years, did they really need to watch? Granted, we all need to live right because we never know when we will die. But the only people who were specifically told to watch died 2 millennia ago.
 
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
63
Why do remove the Sovereignty and power of God? Don't you think that He can reserve for himself the people of Israel whom He has chosen? Why do you put these things in the hands of mankind, as though God's hands were tied? Do you know what God knows?

Regardless of what you have believed and adopted, the scriptures say that from the beginning of the great tribulation period until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, Israel is going to flee out into the wilderness where she will be cared for by God during the last 3 1/2 years.

Get away from whatever teachings you have been following, because they are definitely the false teachings of men.
It is not Israel that fled, it was the Woman. This Woman was part of the Bride of Christ, the believing Jews which stand in stark contrast to the Harlot, which was the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders in alliance with the Beast, Rome.

The Woman divinely fled over the mountains to Pella in perfect fulfillment of that passage for the 3.5 years of the Jewish War with Rome. Christ prepared this place during His ministry on earth. Vespasian was enraged that the Christian Jews escaped the siege. He further considered Gentile and Jewish Christians as enemies and part of lineage of David so he ordered all the descendants of David to be sought out and killed. Not sure how successful he was in that.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
5,251
1,301
113
PHONEMAN-777? Why would ya wanna talk to that jerk????
You actually seem to be a deep thinker and do exhibit a christlike character.

The postrib model does not look very good on you.

All you postribs ignore our verses.

But if you look deeper the rapture is not the postrib second coming. You can not honestly make it fit.Totally impossible. The ac,the last supper dialog,the white horses,mat 24,mat 25,rev 19,rev 14.

All make your doctrine impossible

Postrib rapture does not fit.

It is like trying to fit Peter's eschatology together. He crosses the entire scope in 10 seconds.
Then you blend it all together. As on event....which is again...impossible.
 
Dec 20, 2017
3,413
1,677
113
You actually seem to be a deep thinker and do exhibit a christlike character.

The postrib model does not look very good on you.

All you postribs ignore our verses.

But if you look deeper the rapture is not the postrib second coming. You can not honestly make it fit.Totally impossible. The ac,the last supper dialog,the white horses,mat 24,mat 25,rev 19,rev 14.

All make your doctrine impossible

Postrib rapture does not fit.

It is like trying to fit Peter's eschatology together. He crosses the entire scope in 10 seconds.
Then you blend it all together. As on event....which is again...impossible.
"our verses"

The Bible verses don't belong to pre-trib theorists.
Pre-trib only uses about four verses taken out of context and mutilated.

It completely ignores the instructions of Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter & John to ENDURE.
The church is advised to prepare for endurance during the GT not to prepare for early escape from it.
We are NEVER told to expect an early departure before the return of The Lord in glory.

The only place a post tribulation return of Jesus is impossible is in a pre-tribulation story.
It's not impossible in the Biblical narrative.
I can't accept accept the pre-trib story superimposed over the Biblical picture.
 
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
63
"our verses"

The Bible verses don't belong to pre-trib theorists.
Pre-trib only uses about four verses taken out of context and mutilated.

It completely ignores the instructions of Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter & John to ENDURE.
The church is advised to prepare for endurance during the GT not to prepare for early escape from it.
We are NEVER told to expect an early departure before the return of The Lord in glory.

The only place a post tribulation return of Jesus is impossible is in a pre-tribulation story.
It's not impossible in the Biblical narrative.
I can't accept accept the pre-trib story superimposed over the Biblical picture.
This is the endure part, before the great tribulation. All the disciples are killed, except John

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

This is when the church was to flee. When they saw the Roman solders. They fled over the mountains of Judea to Pella.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

This is the great tribulation., the siege of Jerusalem where 93% of the population is wiped out.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

This is the return of Christ's presence. The Roman forces broke through ending the siege.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
Mar 12, 2015
9,457
1,542
113
You actually seem to be a deep thinker and do exhibit a christlike character.

The postrib model does not look very good on you.

All you postribs ignore our verses.

But if you look deeper the rapture is not the postrib second coming. You can not honestly make it fit.Totally impossible. The ac,the last supper dialog,the white horses,mat 24,mat 25,rev 19,rev 14.

All make your doctrine impossible

Postrib rapture does not fit.

It is like trying to fit Peter's eschatology together. He crosses the entire scope in 10 seconds.
Then you blend it all together. As on event....which is again...impossible.
Hi Absolutely!

That's exactly what I said when I saw his quote from Peter. Yes, the Lord is going to come like a thief in the night. And yes, the earth and all of the elements are going to melt in fervent heat, but not one right after another. That is to say, that Peter was speaking in general terms that these events are going to take place, but not in immediate chronological order. As I'm sure you know, we have a thousand year kingdom with Christ ruling on the throne of David which must take place in between the earth and the elements being burned up, which takes place just prior to the great throne judgment. The only way that they can justify their claims, is by symbolizing and/or allegorizing these events.

In another post he stated that the 144,000, who come out of Israel mentioned in both chapters 7 and 14, as being a symbolic number. My thought on that was, if God wanted to convey an actual, literal number of 144,000 through His word, how could He do that, when people don't believe Him when He does? You don't give the number of a 144,000 and then break it down further into 12,000 increments per tribe to express symbolism. That's preciseness! Not to mention the fact that immediately after that, another group is introduced 'which no man can count." This would demonstrate God's ability to proclaim a literal number vs. an unidentifiable vast number. One represents a literal precise number and the other too many to count. One group is specified as being Israelites and the other as being Gentiles. It's is really sad how they distort the word of God!

There is a great lack of discernment on the part of those who hold to these types of interpretations.
 
Jun 11, 2013
6,980
139
63
Peter also said, "7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers." I wonder what he meant by that? How long does "at hand" last? If it can last 2,000 years, I guess it could last 10,000 or 100,000 or perhaps a million years? 100 generations since Peter's have passed. What are the odds of the planet burning up in ours? I guess if you ask AOC, we have 11 years left.
 
Jul 18, 2017
11,859
4,918
113
Peter also said, "7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers." I wonder what he meant by that?
The apostles expected the Resurrection/Rapture in their lifetimes, therefore Peter said what is quoted above. That would also have triggered the end of all things. However, as we know from Romans 11:25, God has a specific large number of Gentiles who must be added to the Church before it is completed. So over 2,000 have gone by. But the Resurrection/Rapture is still imminent. Which means it could even be today or tomorrow.
 
Jul 18, 2017
11,859
4,918
113
Pre-trib only uses about four verses taken out of context and mutilated.
That is a seriously FALSE accusation. Which means that you do not really know what is revealed in Scripture about this doctrine, or what pre-tribbers teach (which encompasses numerous Scriptures all taken in context).

People should try and educate themselves about what is taught before making misleading statements. There is NOT A SINGLE VERSE which connects the Rapture directly to the Tribulation. So people also need to know what the Tribulation is all about. They also need to know what the reign of the Antichrist is all about. And above all they need to know what the Resurrection/Rapture is all about.

There are too many half-baked ideas floating around since most preachers have not really taken the time to thoroughly study Bible prophecies. Add to that the fact that all the Protestant Reformers simply accepted the Catholic teachings about Bible prophecy without properly studying the matter, (beginning with Augustine's Amillennialism and calling the pope or the papacy the Antichrist). Add to that the animosity and hatred toward Dispensationalism, and a plain literal interpretation of Scripture.
 
Aug 3, 2019
484
144
43
What makes the 12 tribes symbolic?
Hi, brother, in the same way "Babylon" is not literal either according to Isaiah 13. It's not there anymore. Likewise, by time John wrote Revelation in 95 A.D., the only tribe that was left was Judah - decimated, scattered, and experiencing a rapidly draining gene pool.

I'm sure you know "Babylon" at its root is "Babel" ("Bab-El") which literally means "gate to God" and is applied by God Himself to mean "confusion" - because anyone who thinks they can get there by any means except the One Who said, "I am the Door" is suffering from the worst kind of dementia there is. The entire occult world teaches that "all rivers lead to the sea", "all roads lead to Rome", one faith is just as good as another to get us to heaven. "Babylon" in Revelation means "religious confusion" and it is by the contents of the cup she holds that she makes the entire world "drunk" with her false doctrine.
 
Aug 3, 2019
484
144
43
Does God know where the 12 tribes are today?

I think the all-knowing God does.

And could there be a deeper spiritual implication?
You're suggesting the Assyrians carried away the ten tribes, separated and settled them by tribe membership, forbade anyone from intermarrying with them, and today all ten bloodlines are yet preserved as pure as uncut Colombian cocaine and just waiting for God to tell us where they are?

Heck, there's even much evidence to show those who occupy today the ancient land of Israel not Israelites...of course, the most vocal opponents are Christians who think we're obligated to bless Israel and, of course, those who would stand to lose these blessings if it could be shown they are impostors....
 
Aug 3, 2019
484
144
43
That is totally false. The Holy Spirit would not devote eight verses of Scripture to describe the 144,000 in detail, only for someone to come along and dismiss them with "Oh! They are only symbolic. God meant that passage to simply apply to Gentile Jehovah's' Witnesses" (since that is what the Witnesses claim).
Er...you do realize that 1) the entire book of Revelation is a symbolic prophecy, and 2) by the time the book was written, 11 tribes had long ceased to exist, and the last one, Judah, was in decline, right?
When people start playing fast and loose with Scripture, they can make anything mean anything else. Thus it becomes a game of fantasizing rather than sober interpretation.
I think arguing the existence of that which has long since ceased to exist is just as egregious. The tribes ceased to exist long ago, and therefore must be symbols in what is the most symbolic book of the Bible.
Those 144,000 redeemed Jews are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel, and all twelve tribes will have their allotted portions of land in Greater Israel, after the Second Coming of Christ (Ezekiel 48).
Don't know what Bible version you use, but my KJV says there's no longer "Jew nor Greek" on Earth...so, what makes you think there's gonna be Jew and Greeks in heaven? The 144,000 are symbolic of "a multitude no man could number" - THE REDEEMED.
 
Aug 3, 2019
484
144
43
Relying on Rev 7 where 12 tribes are listed and in heaven which died (came out of) the great tribulation of Jerusalem, I would say many were from the Lost Tribes, whether they knew it or not. God never lost track of them after they were taken by the Assyrians. Besides Benjamin became part of Judah, did it not?

According to Jewish tradition, many from among the lost tribes migrated south and were absorbed by Judah. Benjamin of Tudela, Son of Jonah, traveled from Spain in the 12th century AD in search of the Lost Tribes. In his "Book of Travels" he claimed to have found several of the lost tribes in Persia and the Arabian Peninsula. So who knows? It isn't really that important. They certainly won't be more defined in our future as you likely suppose.

Because you will not stop calling me a Jesuit just because they happen to hold some of the same beliefs, even though they were not the ones who originated Preterism, I must now continue to mistakenly refer to you as a "Daniel Gapper.";);););)

BTW, Christ was the first Preterist as He said he was going to handle everything in that generation. Ignatius and Eusebius were also preterists and they published their views long before any Jesuit.
So, a person can have 99.99% Gentile blood and .01% Reuben blood and we have to classify him as of the "tribe of Reuben"? That's both a violation and denial of Scripture. Did not Jesus tell the woman at the well that she and her people didn't know which way was up, but that He and His people knew for sure?

Just a few generations of intermarriage and DNA thinning was enough for Jesus to regard the Samaritans as outside the commonwealth of Israel, but you're suggesting that an additional 2,000+ years of the same somehow grants these "outsiders" a seat at the eschatological table of the book of Revelation?
 
Aug 3, 2019
484
144
43
Gapper,

What are they symbolic of?
The NAMES of children of Israel are what matters...NAMES in the Bible have to do with the character of the named one. Good gravy, the "supplanter" Jacob's name was changed to Israel meaning "OVERCOMER WITH GOD"!

The NAMES of the 12 have to do with the different kinds of characters of the redeemed and the grand display of them as depicted in Revelation is a kind of "trophy case" of they who surrendered their wills to God in order to overcome their old nature and allow God to grant them a new character fit for the kingdom.

One reason so many are confused about prophecy is because although the Bible is dead serious about the concept of overcoming with God, today's churches essentially say, "Overcoming? take it or leave it."
 
Aug 3, 2019
484
144
43
You actually seem to be a deep thinker and do exhibit a christlike character.

The postrib model does not look very good on you.

All you postribs ignore our verses.

But if you look deeper the rapture is not the postrib second coming. You can not honestly make it fit.Totally impossible. The ac,the last supper dialog,the white horses,mat 24,mat 25,rev 19,rev 14.

All make your doctrine impossible

Postrib rapture does not fit.

It is like trying to fit Peter's eschatology together. He crosses the entire scope in 10 seconds.
Then you blend it all together. As on event....which is again...impossible.
Thanks, brother, as do you. :) I ain't perfect, but my motives are. Some want to help others out of their rusty trap of doctrinal deception, but when that help is resisted, they not only leave them to starve to death, but wish upon them an excruciating bout of tetanus in the meantime. That ain't me. Opened eyes makes up for all the scratching and clawing and cursing, y'know?
I don't claim to know everything but what I do find is that I'm FAR MORE acquainted with Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism then any of you all are acquainted with Protestant Historicism, and to me that's sad...because it's like trying to solve a murder case while tossing aside half the evidence before it even has a chance to speak...y'know, like they do when they cover for the elite pedophile Luciferians who run everything, right? LOL
 
Jul 18, 2017
11,859
4,918
113
The 144,000 are symbolic of "a multitude no man could number"
We can be thankful that God has revealed to us the DIFFERENCE between that multitude and the 144,000 redeemed Jews --children of Israel -- representing Israel. So please take careful note of how they are distinguished from each other:

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (Rev 7:4)

So that there is no ambiguity whatsoever, the Holy Spirit says "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". Which means the twelve tribes of Israel.

But then the Church is distinguished from this group as below with "AFTER THIS": After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Now do you see how THOROUGHLY CONFUSED you are with your method of allegorical/symbolical/ imaginary interpretation is?
 
Dec 20, 2017
3,413
1,677
113
That is a seriously FALSE accusation. Which means that you do not really know what is revealed in Scripture about this doctrine, or what pre-tribbers teach (which encompasses numerous Scriptures all taken in context).

People should try and educate themselves about what is taught before making misleading statements. There is NOT A SINGLE VERSE which connects the Rapture directly to the Tribulation. So people also need to know what the Tribulation is all about. They also need to know what the reign of the Antichrist is all about. And above all they need to know what the Resurrection/Rapture is all about.

There are too many half-baked ideas floating around since most preachers have not really taken the time to thoroughly study Bible prophecies. Add to that the fact that all the Protestant Reformers simply accepted the Catholic teachings about Bible prophecy without properly studying the matter, (beginning with Augustine's Amillennialism and calling the pope or the papacy the Antichrist). Add to that the animosity and hatred toward Dispensationalism, and a plain literal interpretation of Scripture.
You can stop declaring "false accusations" and pushing DOCTRINE over Bible study. No one should study the Bible under compulsion to squeeze an extra-biblical narrative with into it. You could make almost anything fit if you study that way.

I was taught the Pre-trib rapture as a young Christian and for years afterwords. I know what it is.

It has more holes than a Swiss cheese. It isn't compatible with The Bible . It is worked into the bible as a doctrine.
A work of the flesh.