The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

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CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Why you yelling, bro? Amplitude is no substitute for evidence. You've obviously not read through the OP, so I'll recap for you how Jesus, the "rapture thief" robs you Jesuit Futurists of the ridiculous idea of a future 7 year tribulation period:,

1) You Jesuit Futurists claim when Jesus comes back as a thief, the "7 years of tribulation" begin.
2) Peter says when the Lord comes as a thief, the entire world is going to make WWII Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a cover shot for Better Homes and Gardens, in which there won't be 7 more years of ANYTHING, let alone a tribulation.
3) Jesuit can't come back "TWO TIMES" as a thief because all will be counting down 7 years to the moment.

You're welcome.
no one is yelling don't create more false narratives That is called Amplified, You should have known that
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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first, don't label people tiles they are not. You wannabe theologians using and violating Greek verbs and such to make yourself seem wise is most taxing. If you can read you would have seen Peter was not the only person quoted.

You should learn what authorial intent is before you try to correct and use "audience integrity."

Context of: the sentence, verse, paragraph, chapter, Book, and Whole bible.

Authorial intent :
who was the writer writing to?
What was the time frame it was written in?
How did they apply it then?
and how do we apply it today?

IF you knew your Bible then you should have known the "Olivet Discourse" which starts after Chapter 23.
it here in chapter 24 & 25 where Jesus answer three questions


Matthew 24: 3

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,:

1. when shall these things be?
2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3. and of the end of the world?


Jesus told them not dates but sign as to when the temple would be destroyed " this Generation" 38 years approx. the temple was destroyed before the official next generation which 40 years. Jesus said this about 32 AD from what we see in history.

What shall be the signs of thy coming? After Jesus goes into great warning to " BE NOT DECEIVED" He gives signs to HIS coming.

Matthew 24;27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then Jesus says to learn the parable of the fig. Jesus is teaching them not only what they will endure but what will be coming and it is clear it has not ALL happened yet.

We know that the temple would be destroyed. WE know Rome would enter the temple and defile it. We know the Jews fled to the mountains in Petra and other places like Cappadocia which I personally walked in the carved out caves in the mountains there. Where Paul preached. Yet are you suggesting there is no prophetic relevance IN Matthew 24- 25?

You can disagree about the rapture but the return of the Lord is Soon that has never been an issue in normal Christianity.

You self-proclaimed theologians, who think they hold the keys to Biblical history and narratives; create words to attack those who you disagree with Like "audience integrity." What a Joke.

After you do some more reading in your Bible come back Ok. While you are looking at Google Find the Hermeneutical term " Authorial intent" and use in getting an application of God's word after you pray.

LOL
Thanks for your condescending response. The scribes and pharisees were theologians too. How many of them did God chose to be His disciples? They missed the first coming, you missed the second coming but at least you didn't kill your Messiah. You only reject His teachings and badly misapply scripture. Not only that, you only rely on one of the synoptic Gospels instead of taking all three to get a fuller picture of the Olivet. Have you ever looked at the literal translation of Mat 24:3? I bet you haven't because it is most inconvenient for your side. So, humor me.

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' (YLT)

Thus the three questions in Mat 24 are:

1. when shall these things be?
2. and what shall be the sign of thy presence,
3. and of the full end of the age?


Mark records two questions. He doesn't even ask about Christ's presence because it is assumed:

4 `Tell us when these things shall be? and what [is] the sign when all these may be about to be fulfilled?'

Same thing for Luke's account.

7 And they questioned him, saying, `Teacher, when, then, shall these things be? and what [is] the sign when these things may be about to happen?'

Thus, it was to be the return of Christ's PRESENCE (parousia) not Him bodily and visibly. The opposite of parousia is absence it is NOT leaving. As you point out, it would be fast, like lightening. They asked for signs so they wouldn't miss it. Christ immediately starts listing off signs, all of them found in the first century. He doesn't mention any massive gap in time. He is addressing the signs leading up to the fall of the temple and links those signs to the end of the AGE, not the end of the world.

Actually the Christians fled to Pella, not Petra. I rode a camel through the pass at Petra. So, I've been places too. Most of the zealots who escaped fled to Masada, another place I have been. Visiting places gives us prospective, it doesn't make us experts.

Back to the literal translation. It was to be Christ's presence which was to return and the fall of the temple which would mark the end of the age, not the world or planet. I guess the important thing is they knew, the Jews of that day, what was happening and why, even though many of us today don't. They recognized their age was about to end as we see in the writings of Josephus:

So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages. - War 6-4-5

The presence of God (or in this case His Son) should be expected when Israel was to be completely and utterly destroyed since His presence was there when the Babylonians destroyed it. If you read the 4 examples of 4 places in the OT which were destroyed in the 6th century BC we find nearly identical cosmic disturbances to those in Mat 24. The heavenly lights going dark at the presence of God is to be expected as He rides His glory cloud (clouds of heaven) blocking the sky. Josephus records this too.

Everything in Mat 24-25 was fulfilled.

I believe in the rapture. I just don't see it as a global one-time event whereby all living believers get whisked off to heaven. Rather it happens to us each individually when we die. The man Paul knew in 2 Cor 12 got raptured (harpazo) off to the third heaven. This would have happened around 41 AD. So, this was after the Cross and well before 70 AD and way well before you think the rapture is to occur. I assumed this man died and wasn't taken alive. Many assume it was Paul himself and this is how Paul seemed to know the most about the afterlife. Regardless...

Question: How is it that a man who died in 41 AD is raptured to heaven if the rapture is to be a future, one-time global event?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Yes, read them all. Look, we all know the Jesuit Preterist end game: Limit OT prophecies to only historic application whereby "proving" wild events like the heavens melting and stars falling are just the prophet waxing eloquent via poetic license.

THIS REQUIRES THEOLOGICAL SKULDUGGERY, AS THE FOLLOWING
ANALYSIS OF YOUR EXAMPLE DEMONSTRATES:

You referenced a passage in Isaiah 34 which was a prophecy of judgment against the ancient Assyrians, and verses 3-4 plainly predict that the hosts of heaven will fall and the heavens will roll up like a scroll. Your point is, "See? Clearly, the prophecy was fulfilled with the overthrow of the Assyrians, but no heavens rolled up and the stars are still there, so there's no reason to expect that the "stars falling" and the "heavens rolling up" of Revelation is any less symbolic."

However, verse 1 and 2 prove that there is still a future application of this prophecy, which is a dual prophecy, because it's not limited to merely a judgment against the Assyrians, but tells of the "indignation of the Lord...upon all nations" - a judgment against all nations which clearly has not yet come to pass!
Why do you insist on calling the preterist view "Jesuit" as if they invented it?? As I already informed you, the early church fathers were all preterists. Eusebius, Bishop of Cæsarea (265-339 AD) writes about the Great Tribulation as past fulfillment as do many others. Read it for yourself and learn something for a change. CS1 ought to read this too.

Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.

1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.

2. His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.

4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:

5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”

6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.

8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.

9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.

10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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No, the idea traces way back before the 16th century. Your information is false. Both Eusebius and Ignatius from the 3rd and 1st century stated that the tribulation of Mat 24 occurred to the wicked Jerusalem during their war with Rome.



This is why God rides the clouds of heaven, the glory cloud so that those things don't happen. The passages you cite, Jer 25, dealt with the fall of Judah to Babylon. Guess what, the planet is still here. You need to recognize prophetic apocalyptic language and stop thinking the world will end every time you see it.

The fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:26-28) 26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. 27 For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black, Because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not relent, Nor will I turn back from it.


The planet is still here!!

The fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7) When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.

The planet is still here!!

The fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-10) 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

The planet is still here!!

The fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5) All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

The planet is still here!!

Since you are ignorant about these 4 past judgments it's no wonder you and the rest of our futurists brothers think the world is ending in Mat 24 when it was just Israel falling in 70 AD like it did in the 6th century BC.
Something missing from this discussion with you stating they've already been fulfilled and others saying there is a future to them is that often when it comes to salvation and judgment oracles there is a double meaning in their fulfillment, one immediate future and one eschatological. Take Isaiah 7:10-16 as an example, the prophecy was given as a sign to Ahaz and the country at the time to assure them that the Lord was with them and they need not fear meaning it had to have been fulfilled within the lifetime of Ahaz. Yet this fulfilled prophecy was then fulfilled in a fuller sense with the advent of Jesus ushering in the end times. So arguing that a prophecy is fulfilled in the past does not necessarily preclude it from being fulfilled in a fuller sense eschatologically.[/QUOTE]

A specific prophesy addressed to a specific group when it takes place to them is fulfilled. If something similar happens again in the distant future to a different group of people, that is called coincidence, not fuller fulfillment. Thanks for weighing in and recognizing Jesus ushered in the end times of Israel.
 
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coming back two time ? that red herring will not work guy. Your idea of Jesus sneaking is foolish at best and unbiblical to say the least.

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Thess 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA Jesus is sneaking Into town?
There is a SHOUT! a Trumpet of God
Jesus said that Paul said that John Said that.


Your sadly mistaken IF you think Jesus is sneaking into town. Every Eye shall see HIM. HE will Appear and HE is calling UP the saints from the fours corners of the earth Just as HE called out Lazarus. Mock, scoff all you want.

You have issue with everyone who does not think like you.

You attack : Jesuit Futurism of the RCC and those of the reformation. You use these terms created to support your opposition to what is said in the Word of God.

Just like those of the past. Many use the church fathers to make their point sound more authoritative but yet Attack the very same church fathers an credit them on other topics. You would have one believe you hold the only truth about the coming of the Lord which I might add many of those who hold to SDA have said Jesus & the law are the means of Salvation. BUT they are very subtle when they say that because they know it is going to be addressed. The only ridicules claims I have heard and foolishness is the blunt and calculated dismissal of what Jesus said in Matthews and Paul and John. Concerning the return of the Lord Jesus .

I don't even need to worry about if Jesus comes back and if I am a sinner I will just be " Annihilated" and be no more.
Poof!!!! Gone no eternal suffering as Jesus said just gone.


" words that we are to comfort each other at funerals, not ridiculous ideas about dearly departed Uncle Bob walking the streets of gold"

Such disrespect to the word of God. Paul lied HERE People when HE spoke in 1thess 4:13-18
I guess Jesus lied too? in John 14 :2


In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Now Jesus is just saying things to make the disciples feel good about themselves. HOW FOOLISH.
C'mon, CS1, you know full well the secret rapture ain't my idea, but is popular Christian myth...glad that you know "if they say He is in the the secret chambers, believe it not."

Now, if you could just give up on that nonsense about Jesus coming back as a thief two times! Don't you agree that all the news organizations that are "left behind" will have a "7 year tribulation countdown clock" at the top corner of their screens?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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wow, more Amazing Facts Read Matthew 24:3 again guy. Remember Truth is a higher form than facts.
You sound like Joe Biden, "We choose truth over facts.":):):).

Bottom line. I showed you 4 passages in the OT where the presence of God came to destroy 4 nations. Instead of responding to those examples, you pull a Biden. You gonna vote for him too?
 
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As I already informed you, the early church fathers were all preterists.
We can't make partial fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy the entire fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. Has Jesus' glorious, universally visible return happened yet? Of course not.

We also can't twist the ECF's commentary so that it conforms to Jesuit Preterism due to a lack of full knowledge of what the ECFs wrote about eschatology. H.Grattan Guiness was considered "England's Greatest Prophecy Teacher" and proves the ECFs were all Historicist: https://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com...-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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We can't make partial fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy the entire fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. Has Jesus' glorious, universally visible return happened yet? Of course not.

We also can't twist the ECF's commentary so that it conforms to Jesuit Preterism due to a lack of full knowledge of what the ECFs wrote about eschatology. H.Grattan Guiness was considered "England's Greatest Prophecy Teacher" and proves the ECFs were all Historicist: https://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com...-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/
I didn't twist Eusebius words. I copied and pasted the chapter, without edit, where he states that the great tribulation was the siege of 70 AD and Jerusalem's destruction. No twisting.

Stick to the topic. Who cares what Guiness thinks about the ECF? Either the ECFs saw the great tribulation as past or they saw it as future. Eusebius saw it as past. If Eusebius is correct, he agrees with my position. If Eusebius is correct, your side has a MASSIVELY HUGE and INSURMOUNTABLE problem because of this verse.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

"Immediately after" is pretty self-explanatory, even for the English grammarly challenged (like CS1), unless you are going to apply your last days = 2,000 year rule:):):):)????

Let me guess, the great tribulation ends then we have this huge gap of centuries, then the Lord comes back in our lifetime. Just like the way you butcher Dan 9.

Has Jesus' glorious, universally visible return happened yet? Of course not.
You are really showing your lack of knowledge. "Universally visible?" I think I know where you are getting this from, Rev 1:7 right? Perhaps you need to look at the literal translation.

7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

The TRIBES OF THE LAND = THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.

When you see LAND, it almost always refers to a specific place, nation or people. Are you learning anything yet or are you keeping your blinders on?
 
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In Matthew 24 Jesus says that he returns after the great tribulation. The return of Jesus is when the event known as the "rapture" occurs. I honestly just don't see what the misunderstanding is. I'll stick with what the Bible says.
 
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I didn't twist Eusebius words. I copied and pasted the chapter, without edit, where he states that the great tribulation was the siege of 70 AD and Jerusalem's destruction. No twisting.

Stick to the topic. Who cares what Guiness thinks about the ECF? Either the ECFs saw the great tribulation as past or they saw it as future. Eusebius saw it as past. If Eusebius is correct, he agrees with my position. If Eusebius is correct, your side has a MASSIVELY HUGE and INSURMOUNTABLE problem because of this verse.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

"Immediately after" is pretty self-explanatory, even for the English grammarly challenged (like CS1), unless you are going to apply your last days = 2,000 year rule:):):):)????

Let me guess, the great tribulation ends then we have this huge gap of centuries, then the Lord comes back in our lifetime. Just like the way you butcher Dan 9.



You are really showing your lack of knowledge. "Universally visible?" I think I know where you are getting this from, Rev 1:7 right? Perhaps you need to look at the literal translation.

7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

The TRIBES OF THE LAND = THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.

When you see LAND, it almost always refers to a specific place, nation or people. Are you learning anything yet or are you keeping your blinders on?
God saves individual people..... two walking together. Not tribes or nations .Not all Israel is Israel or the new name the father named his bride, Christian.

God is not a man.

The one time promised outward demonstration of the power of father not seen working in the Son of man Jesus (powerless)as a prophet apostle, ended. Although some did known the working of the father in the Son of man .

Jesus did not do the will of his corrupted flesh which he said profits for zero. he had food that the disciples knew not of (doing the will of the father that worked in the Son of man.)

When he left he left clear instruction that we know him no more forever more after the corrupted rudiments of this creation.

God is not a man .He has no beginning of Spirt life or end thereof. He remain or High priest continually

We walk by faith the eternal not seen not by sight the temporal

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more
 
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We can't make partial fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy the entire fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. Has Jesus' glorious, universally visible return happened yet? Of course not.

We also can't twist the ECF's commentary so that it conforms to Jesuit Preterism due to a lack of full knowledge of what the ECFs wrote about eschatology. H.Grattan Guiness was considered "England's Greatest Prophecy Teacher" and proves the ECFs were all Historicist: https://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com...-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/
The ECF's is not a source of Christian faith . They as a law of the fathers are the ones attempted to make all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) without effect. They could not prove the word of God was heresy and their law of men the true source of faith . They like the disciples in John 6 walked away faithless .No faith that comes from hearing God.

Acts 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The difference .They worshipped the fathers the things seen as if as a whole legion of fathers replaced (usurp) our unseen father in heaven .While born again Paul worshiped the God of the fathers .Again not the fathers as if they were God.

The think not doctrine..

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

lively stones from all the nations make up the one bride of Christ, the church .

We walk by faith the unseen eternal

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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In Matthew 24 Jesus says that he returns after the great tribulation. The return of Jesus is when the event known as the "rapture" occurs. I honestly just don't see what the misunderstanding is. I'll stick with what the Bible says.
As long as you understand what the great tribulation is, you will be fine - the suffering of the wicked Jews during the siege of Jerusalem in the first century after the Church fled to Pella. Jesus came immediately after it and raised the dead. This is historical fact. The "rapture" or harpazo occurs individually when believers die for those who were still alive or not yet born when the resurrection occurred. 2 Cor 12:2 drives this point home. Here a man in 41 AD was caught up or raptured to heaven when he died. He must have recovered and returned to his body otherwise Paul wouldn't have known about the inexpressible words heard in heaven.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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As long as you understand what the great tribulation is, you will be fine - the suffering of the wicked Jews during the siege of Jerusalem in the first century after the Church fled to Pella. Jesus came immediately after it and raised the dead. This is historical fact. The "rapture" or harpazo occurs individually when believers die for those who were still alive or not yet born when the resurrection occurred. 2 Cor 12:2 drives this point home. Here a man in 41 AD was caught up or raptured to heaven when he died. He must have recovered and returned to his body otherwise Paul wouldn't have known about the inexpressible words heard in heaven.
Correction, God came in 66 AD with Christ and raised the dead. God brought those who were sleeping in Jesus to Heaven. Those who were still alive and remaining past that day, get raptured immediately upon their death. Sorry for my mis-statement. Jesus stayed behind to assist the Romans in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. I believe that is the proper sequence.
 
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Something missing from this discussion with you stating they've already been fulfilled and others saying there is a future to them is that often when it comes to salvation and judgment oracles there is a double meaning in their fulfillment, one immediate future and one eschatological. Take Isaiah 7:10-16 as an example, the prophecy was given as a sign to Ahaz and the country at the time to assure them that the Lord was with them and they need not fear meaning it had to have been fulfilled within the lifetime of Ahaz. Yet this fulfilled prophecy was then fulfilled in a fuller sense with the advent of Jesus ushering in the end times. So arguing that a prophecy is fulfilled in the past does not necessarily preclude it from being fulfilled in a fuller sense eschatologically.
A specific prophesy addressed to a specific group when it takes place to them is fulfilled. If something similar happens again in the distant future to a different group of people, that is called coincidence, not fuller fulfillment. Thanks for weighing in and recognizing Jesus ushered in the end times of Israel.[/QUOTE]
You seem to have missed my example that demonstrates the principle. Isaiah 7 was directed at and fulfilled within the lifetime of those who heard the prophecy, but the Bible confirms that it was fulfilled a second time as part of eschatology. Not a mere coincidence but that the prophecy was intended both as a near future and final fulfillment. Jesus didn't simply usher in the end times for Israel but the end times for all. We are in the last days, the "Now, but not yet" of the promises of God simply waiting for consummation.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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As long as you understand what the great tribulation is, you will be fine - the suffering of the wicked Jews during the siege of Jerusalem in the first century after the Church fled to Pella. Jesus came immediately after it and raised the dead. This is historical fact. The "rapture" or harpazo occurs individually when believers die for those who were still alive or not yet born when the resurrection occurred. 2 Cor 12:2 drives this point home. Here a man in 41 AD was caught up or raptured to heaven when he died. He must have recovered and returned to his body otherwise Paul wouldn't have known about the inexpressible words heard in heaven.
I don't think the preterist view of the great tribulation matches what the Bible describes the GT as. That's one of the fatal flaws of partial/full preterism that makes it hard to take on board.

You would think that if the GT happened in the time period the Bible was written in we would have a rich eyewitness account detailing what happened. Instead we have a rather vague expectation of wars, famines, plagues, etc with no specific time frames because the mystery of the return of the Son of Man is a secret that only the Father knows. The lack of material written about this is attributed to the fact it hasn't happened yet.

If that wasn't enough, the GT is said to be so intense that no one could survive it unless it was cut short - making it on par with an event like the Great Flood of Noah's day that killed everyone except those inside of the ark. Something like that didn't happen on 41 AD or any time since. Not even close.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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A specific prophesy addressed to a specific group when it takes place to them is fulfilled. If something similar happens again in the distant future to a different group of people, that is called coincidence, not fuller fulfillment. Thanks for weighing in and recognizing Jesus ushered in the end times of Israel.
You seem to have missed my example that demonstrates the principle. Isaiah 7 was directed at and fulfilled within the lifetime of those who heard the prophecy, but the Bible confirms that it was fulfilled a second time as part of eschatology. Not a mere coincidence but that the prophecy was intended both as a near future and final fulfillment. Jesus didn't simply usher in the end times for Israel but the end times for all. We are in the last days, the "Now, but not yet" of the promises of God simply waiting for consummation.[/QUOTE]

I see the prediction of Jesus in Isa 7 but see nothing about any future judgment to our times. We are certainly NOT in the last days. They were in the last days as confirmed by the writer of Hebrews:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.

If you are one of these gap placers who find no problem adding 100 generations or 712,000 days to "last days," then you've lost all credibility with me. Once people start adding things to make their view work, they can then make the Bible say or mean anything they want. Once Christ completed His redemptive work on the Cross, the only left for Him to do was come back during that generation to punish those wicked Jews, that perverse and adulterous generation, which He promised to do and to free the captives in Hades, all of which He did.

There is no prophesy about our times that I can find with the possible exception of a little bit in Rev 20. Rev 21-22 deals with the afterlife so that's future to all living people, but past to those who died and gone ahead.
 
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You seem to have missed my example that demonstrates the principle. Isaiah 7 was directed at and fulfilled within the lifetime of those who heard the prophecy, but the Bible confirms that it was fulfilled a second time as part of eschatology. Not a mere coincidence but that the prophecy was intended both as a near future and final fulfillment. Jesus didn't simply usher in the end times for Israel but the end times for all. We are in the last days, the "Now, but not yet" of the promises of God simply waiting for consummation.
I see the prediction of Jesus in Isa 7 but see nothing about any future judgment to our times. We are certainly NOT in the last days. They were in the last days as confirmed by the writer of Hebrews:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.

If you are one of these gap placers who find no problem adding 100 generations or 712,000 days to "last days," then you've lost all credibility with me. Once people start adding things to make their view work, they can then make the Bible say or mean anything they want. Once Christ completed His redemptive work on the Cross, the only left for Him to do was come back during that generation to punish those wicked Jews, that perverse and adulterous generation, which He promised to do and to free the captives in Hades, all of which He did.

There is no prophesy about our times that I can find with the possible exception of a little bit in Rev 20. Rev 21-22 deals with the afterlife so that's future to all living people, but past to those who died and gone ahead.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you mean by gaps, if you're refering to Daniel 7 then no I agree it was fulfilled in 66-73 AD. You agree with the fulfillment of Jesus, but my point is that it was fulfilled twice once with Hezekiah and then more completely(and eschatologically) with Jesus. That demonstrates the principle that a prophecy having a fulfilment with Israel does not preclude a future fulfillment that fits better with the literal language.

There are all sorts of problems with claiming Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD or prior considering it most likely wasn't written until sometime around 96 AD and was presented as being future to that date.

The last days began with the Messiah coming exactly as predicted by Scripture not just to Israel but to the whole Earth. The whole New Testament is dripping with references to being in the last days and while the oracles about the final consummation not yet being fulfilled.

Of course aguing over how and when and all of that seems rather pointless to me since it really doesn't change much about the mission and its immanence. Yet to deny that there is a future final victory where sin and death are both destroyed is to rob Christianity of its hope, a mistake so grievous that Paul put Hymaneus and Philetus out of fellowship for teaching.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I don't think the preterist view of the great tribulation matches what the Bible describes the GT as. That's one of the fatal flaws of partial/full preterism that makes it hard to take on board.

You would think that if the GT happened in the time period the Bible was written in we would have a rich eyewitness account detailing what happened. Instead we have a rather vague expectation of wars, famines, plagues, etc with no specific time frames because the mystery of the return of the Son of Man is a secret that only the Father knows. The lack of material written about this is attributed to the fact it hasn't happened yet.

If that wasn't enough, the GT is said to be so intense that no one could survive it unless it was cut short - making it on par with an event like the Great Flood of Noah's day that killed everyone except those inside of the ark. Something like that didn't happen on 41 AD or any time since. Not even close.
Unfortunately all the disciples were dead by 70 AD with the exception of John but he was in Patmos and he covers the great tribulation and the events leading up to it in pretty good detail in Revelation. Then Josephus documents it too bringing Revelation to life without using all the symbols that John used to disguise it from his Roman captures. Correct, the death count inside Jerusalem had already reached 93% so if God didn't shorten those days, there would have been no flesh inside left alive. Clearly, the GT was NOT to be a global event as only those in Judea were told to flee. One could not flee a global death event.

As I posted previously the early church recognized it as I posted the below writings of Eusebius. Here it is again in case you missed it.

Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.

1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.

2. His words are as follows:644 “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword,645 and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain.646 But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt,647 while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.648

4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian,649 in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:650

5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”

6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says,651 “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again:652 “When ye shall see Jerusalem com142passed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.653

8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst,654 it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.

9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord,655 were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.

10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I'm not sure what you mean by gaps, if you're refering to Daniel 7 then no I agree it was fulfilled in 66-73 AD. You agree with the fulfillment of Jesus, but my point is that it was fulfilled twice once with Hezekiah and then more completely(and eschatologically) with Jesus. That demonstrates the principle that a prophecy having a fulfilment with Israel does not preclude a future fulfillment that fits better with the literal language.

There are all sorts of problems with claiming Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD or prior considering it most likely wasn't written until sometime around 96 AD and was presented as being future to that date.

The last days began with the Messiah coming exactly as predicted by Scripture not just to Israel but to the whole Earth. The whole New Testament is dripping with references to being in the last days and while the oracles about the final consummation not yet being fulfilled.

Of course aguing over how and when and all of that seems rather pointless to me since it really doesn't change much about the mission and its immanence. Yet to deny that there is a future final victory where sin and death are both destroyed is to rob Christianity of its hope, a mistake so grievous that Paul put Hymaneus and Philetus out of fellowship for teaching
There are all sorts of problems with claiming Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD or prior considering it most likely wasn't written until sometime around 96 AD and was presented as being future to that date.
Do you not know that there is only one root source for the 96 AD dating of Revelation? That source comes from triple hearsay evidence. The source was a second century French clergyman, Irenaeus, who in his writings was recalling a conversation he had with Polycarp some 35 years earlier. Polycarp was thought to have known John. John may have told Polycarp that he was released by Domitian or perhaps Irenaeus misunderstand or recalled incorrectly. Regardless, we have a much more reliable source, the Syrian version of the Apocalypse which states in the title that John was vanquished to Patmos by the Emperor Nero. Besides all of this, everything that happens in Revelation is chronicled by Josephus. Josephus basically explains all the prophetic symbols that John employed without even realizing he was doing it.

I'm not sure what you mean by gaps, if you're refering to Daniel 7 then no I agree it was fulfilled in 66-73 AD
I think you mean Dan 9, but good. I hate gaps when none is taught. The Word was not written to confuse us or to make us play mental gymnastics to figure things out.

the final consummation not yet being fulfilled.
Final consummation?? Of Daniel 9?? Consume by fire? How do you think Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed? Daniel was shown the end of the temple which was to be built. Nothing was told to him about a 3rd temple. Heck, there wasn't even a second temple yet. Why would Daniel be told how the third temple would be destroyed if he wasn't told about the end of the 2nd?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Why you yelling, bro? Amplitude is no substitute for evidence. You've obviously not read through the OP, so I'll recap for you how Jesus, the "rapture thief" robs you Jesuit Futurists of the ridiculous idea of a future 7 year tribulation period:,
1) You Jesuit Futurists claim when Jesus comes back as a thief, the "7 years of tribulation" begin.
Naw, man, you're still conflating two distinct issues.

1) "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES as "a thief IN THE NIGHT" [i.e. the TIME PERIOD, its ARRIVAL] (being distinct from...)

2) "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF." [i.e. Jesus HIMSELF]... at the Armageddon point in time (i.e. Rev19 / Rev16:14-16 / Rev20:5 / Rev19:19,21); NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is used with regard to JESUS HIMSELF and His PERSONAL "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon)

These are not the same point in time.

2) Peter says when the Lord comes as a thief, the entire world is going to make WWII Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a cover shot for Better Homes and Gardens, in which there won't be 7 more years of ANYTHING, let alone a tribulation.
No. Peter is speaking of the entire "DOTL" time period (which SPANS a GREAT DURATION OF TIME... "IN WHICH" MUCH will transpire, even 1) the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, 2) His "RETURN" to the earth, 3) the entire 1000-yr reign on/over the earth. ALL THAT [="the Day of the Lord" time period]). He's telling the manner of its ARRIVAL (just like Paul refers to its ARRIVAL in 1Th5:2-3 [as an INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" just like Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse: it is NOT "ONE and DONE" when it comes to the BPs!! ;) ]) AND Peter also tells what all takes place WITHIN it (MUCH... during a great SPANS of TIME! [again, may the reader be sure to read both chpts of Isaiah 34-35 and not merely 34:4 wrenched from its overall context])

3) Jesuit can't come back "TWO TIMES" as a thief because all will be counting down 7 years to the moment.
Remember, He "come BACK" (i.e. "RETURNS" to the earth) ONCE (at Armageddon time-slot). But the rapture occurs BEFORE "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]" can commence to unfold upon the earth; and what FOLLOWS that EVENT [/our Rapture] is: the ARRIVAL of the man of sin IN HIS TIME [and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME, as we see in Scripture], the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR, 1Th5:2-3]" and many more of THOSE [just like Jesus said!], and God SEND[ing] ['them'/certain ones] "GREAT DELUSION, that they should believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei" [entailing some time], parallel with passages I've pointed out in past posts. There will be those who will come to believe the TRUTH just as there will be those who come to believe THE LIE, [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] during those trib yrs (I pointed that out also, those passages).

What I think you are saying is that, after "our Rapture" (under the idea that it is "pre-trib"--which I believe Scripture shows) that people will be able to simply COUNT DOWN to His RETURN to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon) and ta-da! there's no way they can be "caught off guard" by [His Personal RETURN] "AS A THIEF" (Rev16:15-16).

But when you read the passages that parallel this time-slot (His "RETURN" to the earth), this is exactly the exhortation to them: "watch and be ready" (compare Matt24:42-47,48-51 with Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal, i.e the earthly MK age [these folks are still on the earth, in this context, and He's returning there [at that point] as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" [these WISE and UNWISE are NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"--He's not coming to MARRY them, though the WISE of them [i.e. 'saved persons'] WILL ENTER the earthly MK age with [accompanying] Him).

See the enlarged verses ^ ... where it is saying what it does about the "EVIL servant"... and what "he shall say in his heart" and how they will be "cut him asunder" and "appoint his portion with the hypocrites / unbelievers"... "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (i.e. NOT be ENTERING the MK age... like the "BLESSED" and the "RIGHTEOUS" will do, at that point in time [recall, this is not the "Rapture" point in time being spoken of, but their entrance into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or not entering)]).

These passages state, "if the goodman of the house had known what hour [or, in what watch] the thief would come, he would have watched, and not suffered his house to be broken up [/through]." Not ALL will have that negative experience. SOME will have obeyed the imperative / command to "watch and be ready" (again, this is not a "Rapture" passage). THOSE (at the end of the trib [CONTEXT]) who will have done so ['watch and be ready'] will be "BLESSED" [i.e. ENTER the earthly MK age] (not be "broken up / broken through," see ;) ).

Some will heed God's word (just as in Noah's day), and others will not (just as in Noah's day).
[this CONTEXT is "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19/Armageddon (NOT "our Rapture")--not everyone will have heeded God's Word--not everyone will come to the end being the "BLESSED" / the "RIGHTEOUS" and enter the earthly MK age (the MEAL [G347]) to enjoy and experience it. No. Some will disregard His word. And some will "believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei"... and all of this FOLLOWS "our Rapture," which was way back BEFORE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" falls upon the earth... and we can see the 24 elders saying "hast redeemed US out-from..." way back at Rev5:9... BEFORE the first SEAL is opened (and Rev1:1 [comp.1:19c / 4:1 / (7:3)] says that time period (that ASPECT of the DOTL time period, the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect [7-yrs]) must "come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... NOT transpire over some 2000 years, as the Historicist has it ;) ]

This is what Scripture itself informs us about how things will go down. In more than one place.
I've endeavored to point them out in past posts.

You're welcome.