The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

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Apr 2, 2020
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Do you not know that there is only one root source for the 96 AD dating of Revelation? That source comes from triple hearsay evidence. The source was a second century French clergyman, Irenaeus, who in his writings was recalling a conversation he had with Polycarp some 35 years earlier. Polycarp was thought to have known John. John may have told Polycarp that he was released by Domitian or perhaps Irenaeus misunderstand or recalled incorrectly. Regardless, we have a much more reliable source, the Syrian version of the Apocalypse which states in the title that John was vanquished to Patmos by the Emperor Nero. Besides all of this, everything that happens in Revelation is chronicled by Josephus. Josephus basically explains all the prophetic symbols that John employed without even realizing he was doing it.



I think you mean Dan 9, but good. I hate gaps when none is taught. The Word was not written to confuse us or to make us play mental gymnastics to figure things out.



Final consummation?? Of Daniel 9?? Consume by fire? How do you think Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed? Daniel was shown the end of the temple which was to be built. Nothing was told to him about a 3rd temple. Heck, there wasn't even a second temple yet. Why would Daniel be told how the third temple would be destroyed if he wasn't told about the end of the 2nd?
Final consummation of the age, the resurrection of the dead and end of the world.

The manner in which you've characterized Iraneus completely undermines your argument but I'm not interested in getting into a discussion of the dating of books especially as I stated that is only one of the weaknesses to the position that revelation took place in AD 70.

Claiming the resurrection of the dead already happened is the exact heresy Paul wrote to Timothy about in both first and second Timothy. If the resurrection of the dead already happened we are without hope. Jesus' return is immanent not a thing of the past and not a "spiritual" reality for the afterlife.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Unfortunately all the disciples were dead by 70 AD with the exception of John but he was in Patmos and he covers the great tribulation and the events leading up to it in pretty good detail in Revelation. Then Josephus documents it too bringing Revelation to life without using all the symbols that John used to disguise it from his Roman captures. Correct, the death count inside Jerusalem had already reached 93% so if God didn't shorten those days, there would have been no flesh inside left alive. Clearly, the GT was NOT to be a global event as only those in Judea were told to flee. One could not flee a global death event.

As I posted previously the early church recognized it as I posted the below writings of Eusebius. Here it is again in case you missed it.

Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.

1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.

2. His words are as follows:644 “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword,645 and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain.646 But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt,647 while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.648

4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian,649 in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:650

5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”

6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says,651 “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again:652 “When ye shall see Jerusalem com142passed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.653

8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst,654 it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.

9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord,655 were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.

10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
That can't be it either because before the great tribulation happens the gospel has to be preached to all the nations before the end comes. - Matthew 24:14

The gospel was by no means preached to "all nations" in 70 AD.

After that the great tribulation happens.

So what you're describing is something else entirely. Wars, famines, plagues, etc are so frequent on Earth that just pointing at any random event and saying it is the great tribulation isn't enough qualifying material to distinguish it apart from any other catastrophe.

That is why there is more about what the great tribulation will include such as the AoD sitting in the holy place, anti-Christ, mark of the beast, etc.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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That can't be it either because before the great tribulation happens the gospel has to be preached to all the nations before the end comes. - Matthew 24:14

The gospel was by no means preached to "all nations" in 70 AD.

After that the great tribulation happens.

So what you're describing is something else entirely. Wars, famines, plagues, etc are so frequent on Earth that just pointing at any random event and saying it is the great tribulation isn't enough qualifying material to distinguish it apart from any other catastrophe.

That is why there is more about what the great tribulation will include such as the AoD sitting in the holy place, anti-Christ, mark of the beast, etc.
I'm not trying to jump into this conversation but Paul does make it known in Romans 16 that the gospel had been made known to all nations during Paul's time.

(Rom 16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
(Rom 16:26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I don't think nations in those verses is talking about countries but instead is talking about the Jewish nation and the Gentile nation.
 
Sep 15, 2019
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And I am just now reviewing what a vast, and well explained, and time consuming pile of opinions, this question has generated. (Seriously, go back and follow it from the beginning of the discussion.) The Lord could really use your fervent efforts in doing something practical and useful in your respective neighbourhoods. God bless you both.
Since the discussion includes what a day means this may be of interest.

By adding the number of years the patriarchs lived as recorded in Genesis and the age of Noah, and the day of the month mentioned, the amount of weeks, including the creation week, from creation to the first drop of rain of the flood can be counted.

The biblical account is mathematically precise. An atheist mathematician discovered this and tried to use it as proof that the bible isn't from God.

The amount of weeks from creation to the first drop of rain of the flood equals 86,400 weeks. That is the number of seconds in a day.

The mathematician thought the author did that to protect the account from copyist errors.

I told him that the author didn't make-up history to fit a hidden technique to preserve the text. That the text is a written form of an oral tradition passed on from Abraham. I don't believe the author knew the weeks added up that way.

To me it confirmed the text is sacred.
 
Sep 15, 2019
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And I am just now reviewing what a vast, and well explained, and time consuming pile of opinions, this question has generated. (Seriously, go back and follow it from the beginning of the discussion.) The Lord could really use your fervent efforts in doing something practical and useful in your respective neighbourhoods. God bless you both.
Ya, just me again. After prompting all and sundry to check out the time it took to discuss this tiny basically unimportant point, I did it myself. OMGosh!! Look at the precise typing , high-lighting, bold printing , colour coordinated, italisized , time wasting efforts these people have gotten in to. Help us Lord to use our (brief, any way you look at it) time as effectively as we can.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The phrase 'the day of the Lord' refers to two things:
1) a 1000-year span of time
2) the first day of that 1000 years (the day Jesus returns - at His Second Coming)
The following passage tells us this, in light of what we know about the 1000 years from the Bible as a whole. Some of the things mentioned in this passage do not happen until the end of the 1000 years.
2 Peter 3:
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The old heavens and old earth are not completely destroyed until after the 1000 years - right before the new heavens and new earth are put in place.
So, basically we both agree that it is a long spans of time.

Where we disagree is its STARTING point

--You believe its STARTING point is at Christ's "RETURN" to the earth--His "Second Coming" to the earth Rev19).

--I believe its STARTING point is: at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3--the INITIAL ONE OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse; i.e. the ARRIVAL OF "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME, aka "SEAL 1"... when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, 2Th2:7b-8a/Lam2:3-4, etc... (i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect, aka the "DARK / DARKNESS" aspect, that is, the "7-yrs" / "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" aspect which LEADS UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19... and that STARTS way back at Rev4-5! ;) ]



"that day will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and the man of sin be revealed..." (he is revealed at its START, i.e. SEAL #1)
 

CS1

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You sound like Joe Biden, "We choose truth over facts.":):):).

Bottom line. I showed you 4 passages in the OT where the presence of God came to destroy 4 nations. Instead of responding to those examples, you pull a Biden. You gonna vote for him too?
good, come back to a person who seems to hold to Ellen Gould White. The truth guy,
 

PlainWord

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Final consummation of the age, the resurrection of the dead and end of the world.

The manner in which you've characterized Iraneus completely undermines your argument but I'm not interested in getting into a discussion of the dating of books especially as I stated that is only one of the weaknesses to the position that revelation took place in AD 70.

Claiming the resurrection of the dead already happened is the exact heresy Paul wrote to Timothy about in both first and second Timothy. If the resurrection of the dead already happened we are without hope. Jesus' return is immanent not a thing of the past and not a "spiritual" reality for the afterlife.
Glad we don't need to continue discussing the timing of the writing of Revelation.

Concerning the resurrection of the dead (those in Hades), Paul's writing to Timothy predates the resurrection which we know from historical accounts occurred late during the life of Nero. The book of 2 Timothy was written by Paul from a Roman prison, likely between AD 65–66, as Paul awaited to be executed, which likely occurred around AD 66-67. Since this letter was only written a few years after the book of 1 Timothy, it is probable that Timothy was still overseeing the church in Ephesus as Paul wrote to him. Note that the book of 2 Timothy is the last of Paul’s thirteen canonical letters.

I believe that Peter and Paul were the two witnesses of Rev 11, which I won't take the time to explain here. That said, they lay dead 3 days, having both been ordered killed in Rome by Nero. Thus the resurrection likely occurred in 67 AD. Thus my view does not conflict with Paul's message to Timothy.

Oh, we are definitely not without hope. Quite the contrary. Christ freed the captives in Hades long ago. The OT saints are happily in heaven and have been a very long time. Since then, when a believer dies, they are immediately caught up (raptured) to heaven.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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good, come back to a person who seems to hold to Ellen Gould White. The truth guy,
I am not a SDA. They have some whacked out ideas. I eat meat everyday and go to church on Sundays:):).

I do speak the truth though. How about we discuss those 4 OT judgments that mirror Mat 24:29-30? Or if you prefer, we can discuss how the ECFs understood that the great tribulation was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, while most of today's church place it into our future?
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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That can't be it either because before the great tribulation happens the gospel has to be preached to all the nations before the end comes. - Matthew 24:14

The gospel was by no means preached to "all nations" in 70 AD.

After that the great tribulation happens.

So what you're describing is something else entirely. Wars, famines, plagues, etc are so frequent on Earth that just pointing at any random event and saying it is the great tribulation isn't enough qualifying material to distinguish it apart from any other catastrophe.

That is why there is more about what the great tribulation will include such as the AoD sitting in the holy place, anti-Christ, mark of the beast, etc.
You do realize that we have 3 accounts of what Jesus said that night on the Mount of Olives, right? Luke's account identifies the presence of armies surrounding Jerusalem. Guess when that happened? Are you expecting Italy to invade Israel in our future?

Yes, many of those signs, like wars, famines and earthquakes are too common but you are forgetting one of the signs that can only take place before 70 AD.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

This was said to 4 specific disciples, Peter, James, John, and Andrew. Of these, only John lived past 67 AD. No, this doesn't apply to all martyrs throughout time. Christ was looking them in the eyes saying, "they will deliver YOU up." Mark adds something important in his account:

11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

We see this fulfillment beginning almost immediately in Acts 5. Peter is already getting arrested and relying on wisdom from the holy spirit.

17 Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation, 18 and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison...32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Glad we don't need to continue discussing the timing of the writing of Revelation.

Concerning the resurrection of the dead (those in Hades), Paul's writing to Timothy predates the resurrection which we know from historical accounts occurred late during the life of Nero. The book of 2 Timothy was written by Paul from a Roman prison, likely between AD 65–66, as Paul awaited to be executed, which likely occurred around AD 66-67. Since this letter was only written a few years after the book of 1 Timothy, it is probable that Timothy was still overseeing the church in Ephesus as Paul wrote to him. Note that the book of 2 Timothy is the last of Paul’s thirteen canonical letters.

I believe that Peter and Paul were the two witnesses of Rev 11, which I won't take the time to explain here. That said, they lay dead 3 days, having both been ordered killed in Rome by Nero. Thus the resurrection likely occurred in 67 AD. Thus my view does not conflict with Paul's message to Timothy.

Oh, we are definitely not without hope. Quite the contrary. Christ freed the captives in Hades long ago. The OT saints are happily in heaven and have been a very long time. Since then, when a believer dies, they are immediately caught up (raptured) to heaven.
While you're correct about the dating that doesn't discard Paul's admonition. The purpose of Paul reacting so strongly to Hymaneus and Philetus is precisely because the hope of Christianity is a bodily resurrection that is still to come.

It's central to the gospel that it be yet future even today otherwise the gospels purposes have been accomplished and those of us living after the resurrection of the dead are without hope. The hope of Christianity is not life in some mystical heaven but the rebirth of creation and a return to the state of everything being good. It is a bodily, physical hope for the future. It is the final end to sin and the perfection of the physical realm that is the hope of the gospel which requires a worldwide end to death and sin in the final return of Jesus.
 

CS1

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Thanks for your condescending response. The scribes and pharisees were theologians too. How many of them did God chose to be His disciples? They missed the first coming, you missed the second coming but at least you didn't kill your Messiah. You only reject His teachings and badly misapply scripture. Not only that, you only rely on one of the synoptic Gospels instead of taking all three to get a fuller picture of the Olivet. Have you ever looked at the literal translation of Mat 24:3? I bet you haven't because it is most inconvenient for your side. So, humor me.

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' (YLT)

Thus the three questions in Mat 24 are:

1. when shall these things be?
2. and what shall be the sign of thy presence,
3. and of the full end of the age?


Mark records two questions. He doesn't even ask about Christ's presence because it is assumed:

4 `Tell us when these things shall be? and what [is] the sign when all these may be about to be fulfilled?'

Same thing for Luke's account.

7 And they questioned him, saying, `Teacher, when, then, shall these things be? and what [is] the sign when these things may be about to happen?'

Thus, it was to be the return of Christ's PRESENCE (parousia) not Him bodily and visibly. The opposite of parousia is absence it is NOT leaving. As you point out, it would be fast, like lightening. They asked for signs so they wouldn't miss it. Christ immediately starts listing off signs, all of them found in the first century. He doesn't mention any massive gap in time. He is addressing the signs leading up to the fall of the temple and links those signs to the end of the AGE, not the end of the world.

Actually the Christians fled to Pella, not Petra. I rode a camel through the pass at Petra. So, I've been places too. Most of the zealots who escaped fled to Masada, another place I have been. Visiting places gives us prospective, it doesn't make us experts.

Back to the literal translation. It was to be Christ's presence which was to return and the fall of the temple which would mark the end of the age, not the world or planet. I guess the important thing is they knew, the Jews of that day, what was happening and why, even though many of us today don't. They recognized their age was about to end as we see in the writings of Josephus:

So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages. - War 6-4-5

The presence of God (or in this case His Son) should be expected when Israel was to be completely and utterly destroyed since His presence was there when the Babylonians destroyed it. If you read the 4 examples of 4 places in the OT which were destroyed in the 6th century BC we find nearly identical cosmic disturbances to those in Mat 24. The heavenly lights going dark at the presence of God is to be expected as He rides His glory cloud (clouds of heaven) blocking the sky. Josephus records this too.

Everything in Mat 24-25 was fulfilled.

I believe in the rapture. I just don't see it as a global one-time event whereby all living believers get whisked off to heaven. Rather it happens to us each individually when we die. The man Paul knew in 2 Cor 12 got raptured (harpazo) off to the third heaven. This would have happened around 41 AD. So, this was after the Cross and well before 70 AD and way well before you think the rapture is to occur. I assumed this man died and wasn't taken alive. Many assume it was Paul himself and this is how Paul seemed to know the most about the afterlife. Regardless...

Question: How is it that a man who died in 41 AD is raptured to heaven if the rapture is to be a future, one-time global event?
the last question I thought you would know

The dead in Christ will rise first it doesn't say those dead in AD 70 did it? No.

YOu speak about Matthew 24 as if Chapter 23 was not there. Also Mark and Luke and don't for be getting John, all provided snapshots of truth at the time they heard it.


"Mark records two questions. He doesn't even ask about Christ's presence because it is assumed:"

This comment, is it true? Or did you assume ?.
Let's look at Mark 13:4 and on shall we?


Mark 13:4
“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”


Jesus contextually says the same as Mathew :

"And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you.

same a Matthew


the prophecy of the temple being destroyed 1 question answered
warns of deception
Wars rumors of Wars
nations against nations
The gospel must be preached
Then He speaks about Great Tribulation

Mark 13:19
“For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. I guess you think Jesus did not know there would be a 2020 Year?

So if you read Mark 13, it is not assumed as you suggested Jesus speaks about all three as HE did in Matthew and Luke.

1 The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age (Matt. 24:3–14; Luke 21:7–19 )
2. The Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:15–28; Luke 21:20–24 )
3. The Coming of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:29–31; Luke 21:25–28 )

You are wrong.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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I am not a SDA. They have some whacked out ideas. I eat meat everyday and go to church on Sundays:):).

I do speak the truth though. How about we discuss those 4 OT judgments that mirror Mat 24:29-30? Or if you prefer, we can discuss how the ECFs understood that the great tribulation was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, while most of today's church place it into our future?
FYI those posting hold to many of it. Just reread Mark 13 again you are mistaken.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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While you're correct about the dating that doesn't discard Paul's admonition. The purpose of Paul reacting so strongly to Hymaneus and Philetus is precisely because the hope of Christianity is a bodily resurrection that is still to come.

It's central to the gospel that it be yet future even today otherwise the gospels purposes have been accomplished and those of us living after the resurrection of the dead are without hope. The hope of Christianity is not life in some mystical heaven but the rebirth of creation and a return to the state of everything being good. It is a bodily, physical hope for the future. It is the final end to sin and the perfection of the physical realm that is the hope of the gospel which requires a worldwide end to death and sin in the final return of Jesus.
The error of Hymenaeus and Philetus was in saying that the resurrection had already passed as in it had already came and was over with the resurrection of the dead in Christ with Jesus. They were wrong, the resurrection had only just begun with the resurrection of the dead in Christ. The resurrection is continuous from that point on because we, as those that are alive and remain, are passed from death to eternal life.
 

CS1

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I am not a SDA. They have some whacked out ideas. I eat meat everyday and go to church on Sundays:):).

I do speak the truth though. How about we discuss those 4 OT judgments that mirror Mat 24:29-30? Or if you prefer, we can discuss how the ECFs understood that the great tribulation was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, while most of today's church place it into our future?
FYI those posting hold to many of it. Just reread Mark 13 again you are mistaken.


again it is both Jesus unless you limit HIM of HIS ability to know All it is both Jesus spoke of the Temple destruction and Rome's Obamanation. And HIS Coming which HE Jesus said and describes very well as to what it would LOOK like and Sound like.

IF you knew anything about Prophecy you would rethink your unbiblical comments and assertions Forth-telling and Foretelling
a then time application the word can Edify when it was said to those who heard it and it can do the same for us today.

By the foolishness, you might as well not have the Bible because your understanding was all for those in 36 AD to 95 AD.

Jesus has nothing in the Bible for us today? Why do you limit God? Your pride.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Oh, we are definitely not without hope. Quite the contrary. Christ freed the captives in Hades long ago. The OT saints are happily in heaven and have been a very long time. Since then, when a believer dies, they are immediately caught up (raptured) to heaven.
A believer's spirit/soul go to be in His presence. Not their body, which goes into the grave to await "resurrection".

The "dead IN Christ shall rise first".

THEN the "we [plural] which are ALIVE and remain unto" (that's the STILL-LIVING of us, at the time being spoken of)...

will be "caught up [SNATCHED] TOGETHER [G260] with [G4862] them" (that is, we're all SNATCHED UP at the SAME TIME):

[quoting from BibleHub again]

"[re: G260 - 'together'] In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα [G260] is followed by σύν, ἅμα [G260] is an adverb ([meaning] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

[the verb is "SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP / HARPAZO"---so "caught up TOGETHER" *when they are* (*when they are also 'caught up'*)... Meaning, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be "caught up" AS ONE... At ONE SINGULAR point in time, which is yet future.]
 
Nov 23, 2013
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A believer's spirit/soul go to be in His presence. Not their body, which goes into the grave to await "resurrection".

The "dead IN Christ shall rise first".

THEN the "we [plural] which are ALIVE and remain unto" (that's the STILL-LIVING of us, at the time being spoken of)...

will be "caught up [SNATCHED] TOGETHER [G260] with [G4862] them" (that is, we're all SNATCHED UP at the SAME TIME):

[quoting from BibleHub again]

"[re: G260 - 'together'] In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα [G260] is followed by σύν, ἅμα [G260] is an adverb ([meaning] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

[the verb is "SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP / HARPAZO"---so "caught up TOGETHER" *when they are* (*when they are also 'caught up'*)... Meaning, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be "caught up" AS ONE... At ONE SINGULAR point in time, which is yet future.]
(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
This is talking about Lazarus, one of the dead in Christ that was raised to eternal life AFTER Jesus paid for his sins.

(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
This is talking about all of those AFTER Jesus paid the price. These are the ones, along with us, that are alive and remain. These people, including us, NEVER DIE. It is impossible to call a believer AFTER the cross - "The dead in Christ".
 

PlainWord

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A believer's spirit/soul go to be in His presence. Not their body, which goes into the grave to await "resurrection".

The "dead IN Christ shall rise first".

THEN the "we [plural] which are ALIVE and remain unto" (that's the STILL-LIVING of us, at the time being spoken of)...

will be "caught up [SNATCHED] TOGETHER [G260] with [G4862] them" (that is, we're all SNATCHED UP at the SAME TIME):

[quoting from BibleHub again]

"[re: G260 - 'together'] In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα [G260] is followed by σύν, ἅμα [G260] is an adverb ([meaning] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

[the verb is "SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP / HARPAZO"---so "caught up TOGETHER" *when they are* (*when they are also 'caught up'*)... Meaning, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be "caught up" AS ONE... At ONE SINGULAR point in time, which is yet future.]
This was written in 51 AD. By 70 AD, all of the OT saints were resurrected and in heaven. Ignatius, who was there in 70 AD tells us this in his letter to the Magnesians. Where else do we find Harpazo? We find it in 2 Cor 12:2

It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up (RAPTURED) to the third heaven.

Explain to me how this person Paul knows in 41 AD got raptured before your rapture takes place? Did the resurrection take place in 41 AD? Paul let the cat out of the bag, now they know when they die, they are immediately with the Lord, not as disembodied souls as you presume. But as full spiritual beings. Otherwise, this man Paul knew wouldn't be hearing anything. Souls don't have ears, bodies do. I understand Paul wasn't sure about this, but I am.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
This is talking about Lazarus, one of the dead in Christ that was raised to eternal life AFTER Jesus paid for his sins.
Verse 25 (don't miss it): "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me will live [future tense], even though he dies [aorist subjunctive active]."

(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
This is talking about all of those AFTER Jesus paid the price. These are the ones, along with us, that are alive and remain. These people, including us, NEVER DIE. It is impossible to call a believer AFTER the cross - "The dead in Christ".
Paul spoke of "the DEAD IN Christ" well after the Cross point in time.

And of them, he says "SHALL RISE [FUTURE tense] *first*..."

Understand that Paul is tasked with disclosing doctrine pertaining specifically TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY".

The "ONE BODY" to/of whom "our Rapture" SOLELY pertains (it does NOT pertain to OT saints, nor Trib saints, nor MK saints).

It WILL take place at ONE SINGULAR point-in-time.
(2Cor5:2-4 is just one passage speaking of this particular subject as it pertains to the STILL-LIVING portion of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--"that MORTALITY might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE" [our "change" APART from having to DIE FIRST like "the DEAD IN Christ" will have experienced, by contrast--bearing in mind that the "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" part occurs "AT THE SAME TIME" (G260)]).


Jesus said, "I AM the Resurrection

AND the LIFE"




[see again Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence) I've continually pointed out (re: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")]