The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation
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Your argument that the ECFs were all Preterist - which means all prophecy was fulfilled in the first century - can only be supported by twisting the meaning of some ECF commentary and denying the existence of other ECF commentary.
SMH...what Christian does not understand that Matthew 24 has application in the first century? The problem is not our ability to see, as Eusebius did, that first century application...the problem is you Jesuit Preterists' inability to see the last century "in of the world" application.
If you would have clicked on the link instead of dismissing Guinness, you would have seen that every single ECF, INCLUDING POST-FIRST CENTURY ECFS, that had anything to say about the subject all said that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire, which when "taken out of the way" would usher in the rise of the Antichrist.
Now that you know that the ECFs were NOT Jesuit Preterists, pack up your signed copy of "The Last Disciple", toss it in a barrel, light it on fire, and proceed to www.historicism.com, for a study in Protestant Historicism.
Butcher Daniel? I constantly tell people there's no gap, and that the 70 Weeks were fulfilled in Jesus' day. What I've always said that the 70 Weeks were fulfilled in the 1st century...you got the wrong guy.
7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! The TRIBES OF THE LAND = THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. [/QUOTE] You do realize that in the 1st century, when Jesuit Preterism claims this prophecy was fulfilled, there was only ONE SINGLE SOLITARY TRIBE in the land of Israel - Judah - right or wrong? How can "all the TRIBES (plural) of the land" and "all the TRIBES (plural) of the Earth shall mourn" refer to just ONE SINGLE SOLITARY TRIBE? I thank God that Protestant Historicism doesn't have to resort to such language butchering.
Just to what lengths Jesuit Preterism goes in order to "prove" itself.
SMH...what Christian does not understand that Matthew 24 has application in the first century? The problem is not our ability to see, as Eusebius did, that first century application...the problem is you Jesuit Preterists' inability to see the last century "in of the world" application.
If you would have clicked on the link instead of dismissing Guinness, you would have seen that every single ECF, INCLUDING POST-FIRST CENTURY ECFS, that had anything to say about the subject all said that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire, which when "taken out of the way" would usher in the rise of the Antichrist.
Now that you know that the ECFs were NOT Jesuit Preterists, pack up your signed copy of "The Last Disciple", toss it in a barrel, light it on fire, and proceed to www.historicism.com, for a study in Protestant Historicism.
Butcher Daniel? I constantly tell people there's no gap, and that the 70 Weeks were fulfilled in Jesus' day. What I've always said that the 70 Weeks were fulfilled in the 1st century...you got the wrong guy.
7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! The TRIBES OF THE LAND = THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. [/QUOTE] You do realize that in the 1st century, when Jesuit Preterism claims this prophecy was fulfilled, there was only ONE SINGLE SOLITARY TRIBE in the land of Israel - Judah - right or wrong? How can "all the TRIBES (plural) of the land" and "all the TRIBES (plural) of the Earth shall mourn" refer to just ONE SINGLE SOLITARY TRIBE? I thank God that Protestant Historicism doesn't have to resort to such language butchering.
Just to what lengths Jesuit Preterism goes in order to "prove" itself.
QUOTE ;
""The "rapture" doesn't take place until Jesus comes in the clouds, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV""
Rev 14 has Jesus on a cloud harvesting ripe fruit DURING THE GT.
...SO much for the postrib rapture theory.
QUOTE;
"" it merely says that Antichrist is going to issue a death decree, but no mention of the Antichrist acting on this decree. Moreover, we have Biblical examples and promises that show God is NOT going to allow His people to be killed when this decree goes forth""
Not so.
The innumerable number are before the throne in heaven martyred by the ac.
Rev 20 also disagrees with you
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
Not only that but as I said the ac kills all refusing the mark.
Postrib rapture doctrine is poorly thought out
""The "rapture" doesn't take place until Jesus comes in the clouds, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV""
Rev 14 has Jesus on a cloud harvesting ripe fruit DURING THE GT.
...SO much for the postrib rapture theory.
QUOTE;
"" it merely says that Antichrist is going to issue a death decree, but no mention of the Antichrist acting on this decree. Moreover, we have Biblical examples and promises that show God is NOT going to allow His people to be killed when this decree goes forth""
Not so.
The innumerable number are before the throne in heaven martyred by the ac.
Rev 20 also disagrees with you
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
Not only that but as I said the ac kills all refusing the mark.
Postrib rapture doctrine is poorly thought out
You sound like Joe Biden, "We choose truth over facts."
.
Bottom line. I showed you 4 passages in the OT where the presence of God came to destroy 4 nations. Instead of responding to those examples, you pull a Biden. You gonna vote for him too?
.Bottom line. I showed you 4 passages in the OT where the presence of God came to destroy 4 nations. Instead of responding to those examples, you pull a Biden. You gonna vote for him too?
Naw, man, you're still conflating two distinct issues.
1) "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES as "a thief IN THE NIGHT" [i.e. the TIME PERIOD, its ARRIVAL] (being distinct from...)
2) "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF." [i.e. Jesus HIMSELF]... at the Armageddon point in time (i.e. Rev19 / Rev16:14-16 / Rev20:5 / Rev19:19,21); NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is used with regard to JESUS HIMSELF and His PERSONAL "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon)
These are not the same point in time.
No. Peter is speaking of the entire "DOTL" time period (which SPANS a GREAT DURATION OF TIME... "IN WHICH" MUCH will transpire, even 1) the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, 2) His "RETURN" to the earth, 3) the entire 1000-yr reign on/over the earth. ALL THAT [="the Day of the Lord" time period]). He's telling the manner of its ARRIVAL (just like Paul refers to its ARRIVAL in 1Th5:2-3 [as an INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" just like Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse: it is NOT "ONE and DONE" when it comes to the BPs!! ]) AND Peter also tells what all takes place WITHIN it (MUCH... during a great SPANS of TIME! [again, may the reader be sure to read both chpts of Isaiah 34-35 and not merely 34:4 wrenched from its overall context])
Remember, He "come BACK" (i.e. "RETURNS" to the earth) ONCE (at Armageddon time-slot). But the rapture occurs BEFORE "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]" can commence to unfold upon the earth; and what FOLLOWS that EVENT [/our Rapture] is: the ARRIVAL of the man of sin IN HIS TIME [and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME, as we see in Scripture], the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR, 1Th5:2-3]" and many more of THOSE [just like Jesus said!], and God SEND[ing] ['them'/certain ones] "GREAT DELUSION, that they should believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei" [entailing some time], parallel with passages I've pointed out in past posts. There will be those who will come to believe the TRUTH just as there will be those who come to believe THE LIE, [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] during those trib yrs (I pointed that out also, those passages).
What I think you are saying is that, after "our Rapture" (under the idea that it is "pre-trib"--which I believe Scripture shows) that people will be able to simply COUNT DOWN to His RETURN to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon) and ta-da! there's no way they can be "caught off guard" by [His Personal RETURN] "AS A THIEF" (Rev16:15-16).
But when you read the passages that parallel this time-slot (His "RETURN" to the earth), this is exactly the exhortation to them: "watch and be ready" (compare Matt24:42-47,48-51 with Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal, i.e the earthly MK age [these folks are still on the earth, in this context, and He's returning there [at that point] as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" [these WISE and UNWISE are NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"--He's not coming to MARRY them, though the WISE of them [i.e. 'saved persons'] WILL ENTER the earthly MK age with [accompanying] Him).
See the enlarged verses ^ ... where it is saying what it does about the "EVIL servant"... and what "he shall say in his heart" and how they will be "cut him asunder" and "appoint his portion with the hypocrites / unbelievers"... "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (i.e. NOT be ENTERING the MK age... like the "BLESSED" and the "RIGHTEOUS" will do, at that point in time [recall, this is not the "Rapture" point in time being spoken of, but their entrance into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or not entering)]).
These passages state, "if the goodman of the house had known what hour [or, in what watch] the thief would come, he would have watched, and not suffered his house to be broken up [/through]." Not ALL will have that negative experience. SOME will have obeyed the imperative / command to "watch and be ready" (again, this is not a "Rapture" passage). THOSE (at the end of the trib [CONTEXT]) who will have done so ['watch and be ready'] will be "BLESSED" [i.e. ENTER the earthly MK age] (not be "broken up / broken through," see ).
Some will heed God's word (just as in Noah's day), and others will not (just as in Noah's day).
[this CONTEXT is "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19/Armageddon (NOT "our Rapture")--not everyone will have heeded God's Word--not everyone will come to the end being the "BLESSED" / the "RIGHTEOUS" and enter the earthly MK age (the MEAL [G347]) to enjoy and experience it. No. Some will disregard His word. And some will "believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei"... and all of this FOLLOWS "our Rapture," which was way back BEFORE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" falls upon the earth... and we can see the 24 elders saying "hast redeemed US out-from..." way back at Rev5:9... BEFORE the first SEAL is opened (and Rev1:1 [comp.1:19c / 4:1 / (7:3)] says that time period (that ASPECT of the DOTL time period, the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect [7-yrs]) must "come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... NOT transpire over some 2000 years, as the Historicist has it ]
This is what Scripture itself informs us about how things will go down. In more than one place.
I've endeavored to point them out in past posts.
1) "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES as "a thief IN THE NIGHT" [i.e. the TIME PERIOD, its ARRIVAL] (being distinct from...)
2) "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF." [i.e. Jesus HIMSELF]... at the Armageddon point in time (i.e. Rev19 / Rev16:14-16 / Rev20:5 / Rev19:19,21); NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is used with regard to JESUS HIMSELF and His PERSONAL "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon)
These are not the same point in time.
No. Peter is speaking of the entire "DOTL" time period (which SPANS a GREAT DURATION OF TIME... "IN WHICH" MUCH will transpire, even 1) the 7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth, 2) His "RETURN" to the earth, 3) the entire 1000-yr reign on/over the earth. ALL THAT [="the Day of the Lord" time period]). He's telling the manner of its ARRIVAL (just like Paul refers to its ARRIVAL in 1Th5:2-3 [as an INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" just like Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse: it is NOT "ONE and DONE" when it comes to the BPs!!
]) AND Peter also tells what all takes place WITHIN it (MUCH... during a great SPANS of TIME! [again, may the reader be sure to read both chpts of Isaiah 34-35 and not merely 34:4 wrenched from its overall context])Remember, He "come BACK" (i.e. "RETURNS" to the earth) ONCE (at Armageddon time-slot). But the rapture occurs BEFORE "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]" can commence to unfold upon the earth; and what FOLLOWS that EVENT [/our Rapture] is: the ARRIVAL of the man of sin IN HIS TIME [and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME, as we see in Scripture], the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR, 1Th5:2-3]" and many more of THOSE [just like Jesus said!], and God SEND[ing] ['them'/certain ones] "GREAT DELUSION, that they should believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei" [entailing some time], parallel with passages I've pointed out in past posts. There will be those who will come to believe the TRUTH just as there will be those who come to believe THE LIE, [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] during those trib yrs (I pointed that out also, those passages).
What I think you are saying is that, after "our Rapture" (under the idea that it is "pre-trib"--which I believe Scripture shows) that people will be able to simply COUNT DOWN to His RETURN to the earth (Rev19 / Armageddon) and ta-da! there's no way they can be "caught off guard" by [His Personal RETURN] "AS A THIEF" (Rev16:15-16).
But when you read the passages that parallel this time-slot (His "RETURN" to the earth), this is exactly the exhortation to them: "watch and be ready" (compare Matt24:42-47,48-51 with Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" THEN the meal, i.e the earthly MK age [these folks are still on the earth, in this context, and He's returning there [at that point] as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" [these WISE and UNWISE are NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"--He's not coming to MARRY them, though the WISE of them [i.e. 'saved persons'] WILL ENTER the earthly MK age with [accompanying] Him).
See the enlarged verses ^ ... where it is saying what it does about the "EVIL servant"... and what "he shall say in his heart" and how they will be "cut him asunder" and "appoint his portion with the hypocrites / unbelievers"... "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (i.e. NOT be ENTERING the MK age... like the "BLESSED" and the "RIGHTEOUS" will do, at that point in time [recall, this is not the "Rapture" point in time being spoken of, but their entrance into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or not entering)]).
These passages state, "if the goodman of the house had known what hour [or, in what watch] the thief would come, he would have watched, and not suffered his house to be broken up [/through]." Not ALL will have that negative experience. SOME will have obeyed the imperative / command to "watch and be ready" (again, this is not a "Rapture" passage). THOSE (at the end of the trib [CONTEXT]) who will have done so ['watch and be ready'] will be "BLESSED" [i.e. ENTER the earthly MK age] (not be "broken up / broken through," see
).Some will heed God's word (just as in Noah's day), and others will not (just as in Noah's day).
[this CONTEXT is "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19/Armageddon (NOT "our Rapture")--not everyone will have heeded God's Word--not everyone will come to the end being the "BLESSED" / the "RIGHTEOUS" and enter the earthly MK age (the MEAL [G347]) to enjoy and experience it. No. Some will disregard His word. And some will "believe the LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei"... and all of this FOLLOWS "our Rapture," which was way back BEFORE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" falls upon the earth... and we can see the 24 elders saying "hast redeemed US out-from..." way back at Rev5:9... BEFORE the first SEAL is opened (and Rev1:1 [comp.1:19c / 4:1 / (7:3)] says that time period (that ASPECT of the DOTL time period, the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect [7-yrs]) must "come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... NOT transpire over some 2000 years, as the Historicist has it
]This is what Scripture itself informs us about how things will go down. In more than one place.
I've endeavored to point them out in past posts.
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So, basically we both agree that it is a long spans of time.
Where we disagree is its STARTING point
--You believe its STARTING point is at Christ's "RETURN" to the earth--His "Second Coming" to the earth Rev19).
--I believe its STARTING point is: at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3--the INITIAL ONE OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse; i.e. the ARRIVAL OF "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME, aka "SEAL 1"... when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, 2Th2:7b-8a/Lam2:3-4, etc... (i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect, aka the "DARK / DARKNESS" aspect, that is, the "7-yrs" / "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" aspect which LEADS UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19... and that STARTS way back at Rev4-5! ]
"that day will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and the man of sin be revealed..." (he is revealed at its START, i.e. SEAL #1)
Where we disagree is its STARTING point
--You believe its STARTING point is at Christ's "RETURN" to the earth--His "Second Coming" to the earth Rev19).
--I believe its STARTING point is: at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3--the INITIAL ONE OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse; i.e. the ARRIVAL OF "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME, aka "SEAL 1"... when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, 2Th2:7b-8a/Lam2:3-4, etc... (i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect, aka the "DARK / DARKNESS" aspect, that is, the "7-yrs" / "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" aspect which LEADS UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19... and that STARTS way back at Rev4-5!
]"that day will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and the man of sin be revealed..." (he is revealed at its START, i.e. SEAL #1)
Ah, no, no, no my brother. There is no return to the physical realm for us after death. The perfection and freedom from sin where righteousness dwells is only found in the spiritual realm. We are not to become like ghosts, as many on your side believe, waiting for the rebirth/transformation of our flesh bodies. When we die, we step out of our earthly tent (as both Peter and Paul called it) and are already fully spiritual beings with body, soul and spirit. Then we take that short trip to heaven, floating up and waving goodbye, fully conscience, everything visible to us. This is the testimony of multiple NDE accounts. Once in heaven, we meet Jesus and receive our glorification, level of brightness, based on our deeds.
Our earth body decays and turns to dust. It serves no further purpose. Paul was pretty explicit about this in 1 Cor 15. Our current body is corrupt and cannot inherit incorruption.
The resurrection is not the coming back to life of a dead body. Far from it. It is the coming out of Hades, the underworld of the physically dead where everyone was separated from God. Christ restored that connection to God which was lost in the Garden. Thus being resurrected is rising from the spiritually dead. Christ defeated Hades and Death (spiritual) on the Cross. He was the firstfruits of those He was about to free. He had the key to Death and Hades, right? He set the captives free. He took the OT saints to heaven. Would it be right to leave them there another 2,000 years apart from God? NO.
Thus, when we die, we are caught up (raptured - harpazo) immediately. This idea of disembodied souls in heaven waiting for a tribulation and antichrist is pure Hollywood nonsense. A lot of people got rich on this Si-Fi.
The earth continues long after we are all dead and in heaven. Heaven is the spiritual realm with no pain or suffering or sin. It is the New Jerusalem. We are not of this earth, our citizenship is in heaven. There is no prediction of a third return of Christ to this planet. His work is done. His enemies have been defeated and He defeated His last enemy - spiritual death, which means separation from God. This is the way things have been for 1,950 years. Nobody gets to cheat death to fly away per Heb 9:27, where no exception is found.
Our earth body decays and turns to dust. It serves no further purpose. Paul was pretty explicit about this in 1 Cor 15. Our current body is corrupt and cannot inherit incorruption.
The resurrection is not the coming back to life of a dead body. Far from it. It is the coming out of Hades, the underworld of the physically dead where everyone was separated from God. Christ restored that connection to God which was lost in the Garden. Thus being resurrected is rising from the spiritually dead. Christ defeated Hades and Death (spiritual) on the Cross. He was the firstfruits of those He was about to free. He had the key to Death and Hades, right? He set the captives free. He took the OT saints to heaven. Would it be right to leave them there another 2,000 years apart from God? NO.
Thus, when we die, we are caught up (raptured - harpazo) immediately. This idea of disembodied souls in heaven waiting for a tribulation and antichrist is pure Hollywood nonsense. A lot of people got rich on this Si-Fi.
The earth continues long after we are all dead and in heaven. Heaven is the spiritual realm with no pain or suffering or sin. It is the New Jerusalem. We are not of this earth, our citizenship is in heaven. There is no prediction of a third return of Christ to this planet. His work is done. His enemies have been defeated and He defeated His last enemy - spiritual death, which means separation from God. This is the way things have been for 1,950 years. Nobody gets to cheat death to fly away per Heb 9:27, where no exception is found.
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Some of us were appointed to be teachers, to instruct and correct false doctrines so that the Church can be edified and unified. It is fully appropriate to have these discussions when we have disagreements. The disciples and early church fathers spent a ton of time teaching and instructing the Church on doctrinal issues. They didn't spend all their time evangelizing, did they?
If this is a waste of time for you, just click to another site or thread.
If this is a waste of time for you, just click to another site or thread.
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You do realize that in the 1st century, when Jesuit Preterism claims this prophecy was fulfilled, there was only ONE SINGLE SOLITARY TRIBE in the land of Israel - Judah - right or wrong? How can "all the TRIBES (plural) of the land" and "all the TRIBES (plural) of the Earth shall mourn" refer to just ONE SINGLE SOLITARY TRIBE? I thank God that Protestant Historicism doesn't have to resort to such language butchering.
Just to what lengths Jesuit Preterism goes in order to "prove" itself.[/QUOTE]
If you would stop calling me a Jesuit, I will apologize for confusing you with a Dan 9 gap placer. Deal?
Who does Peter write his first epistle to?
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"
Dispersion or Diaspora:
A diaspora (/daɪˈæspərə/) is a scattered population whose origin lies in a separate geographic locale. Historically, the word diaspora was used to refer to the involuntary mass dispersion of a population from its indigenous territories, in particular the dispersion of Jews.
In Acts 2 we see these dispersed tribes return to Jerusalem for the major feasts. The same continued to happen each year until the temple was destroyed. Thus the tribes of the land were there. Rev 7 also mentions 12 tribes, so while "lost" or dispersed, they were still recognized in the first century. Good luck tracking them today.
This round goes to PlainWord, LOL.
You will have to provide me some examples. I am not going to waste my time reading Guinness when he and his sources are dead wrong.
The “day of the Lord” is a Biblical term used to describe a time of judgment. In this case it refers to the time in which God would punish apostate Israel for its mistreatment of the prophets and saints at the end of the age (Acts 8:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; Revelation 6:9-11; 17:6). The day of the Lord was also the time in which the resurrection was expected to occur and the saints were to be gathered to the Lord. In 2 Thessalonians 2:2 Paul tells the Thessalonians not to be deceived into believing that “the day of the Lord has already come” in A.D. 51 or 52 when this letter was written. Then in vs. 3-9 Paul highlights the major, easily observable events that would indicate that the day of the Lord was a present reality in order to alleviate the fears of the saints. These predictions were all fulfilled during the Jewish War which began in A.D. 66 approximately fourteen or fifteen years after this letter was written. The Jewish War is the day of the Lord mentioned in v. 2.
What Titus did when he entered the Temple is written about in the Talmud. In Daniel 7:25, the little horn, Titus, is said to “speak against the Most High.” Gittin 56b of the Babylonian Talmud records the fulfillment of this verse immediately before the worship of Caesar and Rome in the Temple on the 9th of Av of A.D. 70:
Isaiah 14:13-14 was fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar II who was responsible for plundering and destroying Solomon’s Temple in 586 B.C. Daniel 8:10-25 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanies who entered the Temple and desecrated it with an idol of Zeus in the second century B.C. Daniel 11:36-39 was fulfilled by Pompey when he entered the Holy of Holies after conquering Jerusalem in the first century B.C.
It seems that lofty challenges and blasphemies are attributed to anyone who enterers, destroys or in any way blasphemes the Temple, God’s sacred dwelling place. In this way, Titus blasphemed God more than anyone else in Jewish history as he did not just desecrate the Temple with idol worship as did Antiochus Epiphanies, he did not just enter the Holy of Holies as did Pompey, and he did not just destroy the Temple as did Nebuchadnezzar II, Titus did all three of those things!
It would be one thing if we preterists had no answers and nothing like this happened in the first century, but the fact is, the events of the first century perfectly match all the predictions you are looking for in the future.
Just to what lengths Jesuit Preterism goes in order to "prove" itself.[/QUOTE]
If you would stop calling me a Jesuit, I will apologize for confusing you with a Dan 9 gap placer. Deal?
Who does Peter write his first epistle to?
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"
Dispersion or Diaspora:
A diaspora (/daɪˈæspərə/) is a scattered population whose origin lies in a separate geographic locale. Historically, the word diaspora was used to refer to the involuntary mass dispersion of a population from its indigenous territories, in particular the dispersion of Jews.
In Acts 2 we see these dispersed tribes return to Jerusalem for the major feasts. The same continued to happen each year until the temple was destroyed. Thus the tribes of the land were there. Rev 7 also mentions 12 tribes, so while "lost" or dispersed, they were still recognized in the first century. Good luck tracking them today.
This round goes to PlainWord, LOL.
You will have to provide me some examples. I am not going to waste my time reading Guinness when he and his sources are dead wrong.
The “day of the Lord” is a Biblical term used to describe a time of judgment. In this case it refers to the time in which God would punish apostate Israel for its mistreatment of the prophets and saints at the end of the age (Acts 8:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; Revelation 6:9-11; 17:6). The day of the Lord was also the time in which the resurrection was expected to occur and the saints were to be gathered to the Lord. In 2 Thessalonians 2:2 Paul tells the Thessalonians not to be deceived into believing that “the day of the Lord has already come” in A.D. 51 or 52 when this letter was written. Then in vs. 3-9 Paul highlights the major, easily observable events that would indicate that the day of the Lord was a present reality in order to alleviate the fears of the saints. These predictions were all fulfilled during the Jewish War which began in A.D. 66 approximately fourteen or fifteen years after this letter was written. The Jewish War is the day of the Lord mentioned in v. 2.
What Titus did when he entered the Temple is written about in the Talmud. In Daniel 7:25, the little horn, Titus, is said to “speak against the Most High.” Gittin 56b of the Babylonian Talmud records the fulfillment of this verse immediately before the worship of Caesar and Rome in the Temple on the 9th of Av of A.D. 70:
Vespasian sent Titus who said, “Where is their God, the rock in whom they trusted?” This was the wicked Titus who blasphemed and insulted Heaven. What did he do? He took a harlot by the hand and entered the Holy of Holies and spread out a scroll of the Law and committed a sin on it. He then took a sword and slashed the curtain. Miraculously blood spurted out, and he thought that he had slain God himself.
The fact that Titus blasphemed God in the Temple is also found in Jewish tradition concerning Titus’ return to Rome after the fall of Jerusalem. Gittin 56b of the Babylonian Talmud records Titus’ haughty challenge to the Almighty God of Israel: “If he [the God of Israel] is really mighty, let him come up on the dry land and fight with me.”Isaiah 14:13-14 was fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar II who was responsible for plundering and destroying Solomon’s Temple in 586 B.C. Daniel 8:10-25 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanies who entered the Temple and desecrated it with an idol of Zeus in the second century B.C. Daniel 11:36-39 was fulfilled by Pompey when he entered the Holy of Holies after conquering Jerusalem in the first century B.C.
It seems that lofty challenges and blasphemies are attributed to anyone who enterers, destroys or in any way blasphemes the Temple, God’s sacred dwelling place. In this way, Titus blasphemed God more than anyone else in Jewish history as he did not just desecrate the Temple with idol worship as did Antiochus Epiphanies, he did not just enter the Holy of Holies as did Pompey, and he did not just destroy the Temple as did Nebuchadnezzar II, Titus did all three of those things!
It would be one thing if we preterists had no answers and nothing like this happened in the first century, but the fact is, the events of the first century perfectly match all the predictions you are looking for in the future.
If there happens to be a second fulfillment that would be called a coincidence. The temple was destroyed twice. Was that a dual fulfillment? No, each destruction had it's own prediction. Since the presence of Christ returned in the first century, He fulfilled His prediction that His return would be to that generation. Although He didn't know the day or hour, He was pretty clear on which generation He would return to. He came back to the one which pierced Him. Nothing prevents Christ from coming back a third time, we just don't have a prediction for it. If He does return again, it won't be a dual fulfillment because He was to punish those who slayed Him and He isn't going to be killed again.
No, the way to tell when a person lost the debate is when they deflect and don't answer the question. So again I ask, referring to 2 Cor 12:2.
Question: How is it that a man who died in 41 AD is raptured to heaven if the rapture is to be a future, one-time global event?
If you don't know, just say you don't know. The rapture is either a one-time global event or it isn't.
Question: How is it that a man who died in 41 AD is raptured to heaven if the rapture is to be a future, one-time global event?
If you don't know, just say you don't know. The rapture is either a one-time global event or it isn't.
The only "tribe" that was "dispersed" to which Peter wrote was the SINGULAR TRIBE OF JUDAH, right or wrong?
Christian converts of the singular tribe of Judah (Jews) were dispersed. You can't spin this fact to fit some Jesuit Preterist fantasy that the tribe of Judah somehow morphed into a plurality of tribes simply because they scattered themselves.
BTW, I can call your idea "Jesuit Preterism" because it is more or less what Jesuit Ribera manufactured in the 16th century. However, it makes no sense to associate me with 70 Weeks "gap theory" when my Protestant Historicists like me flatly deny the existence of a gap.
Christian converts of the singular tribe of Judah (Jews) were dispersed. You can't spin this fact to fit some Jesuit Preterist fantasy that the tribe of Judah somehow morphed into a plurality of tribes simply because they scattered themselves.
BTW, I can call your idea "Jesuit Preterism" because it is more or less what Jesuit Ribera manufactured in the 16th century. However, it makes no sense to associate me with 70 Weeks "gap theory" when my Protestant Historicists like me flatly deny the existence of a gap.