The Sin of Pacifism

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gzusfrk

Senior Member
#821
Aug 4, 2013
359
5
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#821
Jason0047 said:
Uh, when I say God must "approve" it is not talking about morality. For God approved of Job to be tested by Satan. Satan could not do anything to Job without God's approval.
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I feel that kind walk around my statement, or I didnt understand it.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#822
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
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#822
elf3 said:
Funny because I have already explained my faith in God TWICE but seems you either ignored what said or just didn't read my post (TWICE).

I think I have actually said this more than twice but just for you Jason I'll say it again....not every situation would need lethal force but if needed I sure would use it to save someone.

Boy I hope you actually read this.
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But let's say you are ignoring Jesus command to love your enemies. Let's say you are igoring the command to overcome evil with good. Your war or violent self defense is not sanctioned by God and you would be against what He wants you to really do. So trusting in carnal weapons is indeed what you would be doing instead of trusting in God because you would be disobeying his commands.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#823
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
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#823
gzusfrk said:
I feel that kind walk around my statement, or I didnt understand it.
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You didn't understand it. I am not saying God approves of evil. No. No. Most certainly not. God is good. What I am saying is God approves (allows) on what type of evil may happen to a person or not. In other words, nothing bad can happen to you without God's say so just like in the story of Job. Satan wanted to do bad things to Job. God allowed it for a greater good to be brought about in Job's life; And that good that was being built up in Job's life was his faith and love in God. Job's hardships and trials was proving he was not trusting in this outside world for true safety and happiness but He was first trusting in God.
 
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Calminian

Guest
#824
#824
Jason0047 said:
You didn't understand it. I am not saying God approves of evil. No. No. Most certainly not. God is good. What I am saying is God approves (allows) on what type of evil may happen to a person or not. In other words, nothing bad can happen to you without God's say so just like in the story of Job. Satan wanted to do bad things to Job. God allowed it for a greater good to be brought about in Job's life; And that good that was being built up in Job's life was his faith and love in God. Job's hardships and trials was proving he was not trusting in this outside world for true safety and happiness but He was first trusting in God.
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I know I'm probably becoming very annoying, but if that's true, why would you be willing to call the police? How are you loving your enemies by doing this? The police have guns and can shoot them.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#825
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
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#825
Calminian said:
I know I'm probably becoming very annoying, but if that's true, why would you be willing to call the police? How are you loving your enemies by doing this? The police have guns and can shoot them.
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Police are not hit men. And angels have swords, too. If I ask God to protect me with his angels, those angels could use lethal force or they may not use lethal force to protect me. Just because I pray to God for angels to protect me, does not mean I am sanctioning direct violence.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#826
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
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#826
jdbear said:
Not much you can do against a tornado, but have you noticed you're avoiding my counsel at every turn? Get real with a prospective mate. Make sure you let any girlfriend know if you had to kill to protect her you wouldn't do it. Ok? And plan on being single for the rest of your life. Also, Abraham knew Jesus and made hamburger out of those who kidnapped Lot.
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You have no counsel unless you can back up that counsel with the Word of God; And your not getting your meat hooks in me to talk about my personal life.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#827
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
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#827
Ecclesiastik said:
I've always had thoughts that leaned towards pacifism but they never really came into fruition until I joined the military because I agreed with those around me that although the Bible seems to point to it, it just can't be true because it doesn't match with what the flesh wants....and it's just too impractical.

About two years after I joined the military I had a good idea about the philosophies that are running around here but since I am only in one branch, I started to dig further. I started to talk to infantry guys, vets, and other Christians to see their thoughts on the military. Actually I started a thread on here not too long ago on the subject. The most learned man on the subject on that thread was a pacifist and nobody could debunk his points.

At that point, I was persuaded but I kept digging. I started bringing up his point to other people and examining them myself to see if they checked out. They did and others could not debunk the points that were brought up either (which were historical and biblical).

Furthermore, I started examining the involvement of different Christians of different nations in war (Nazi Germany, China, Palestine vs Israel). I realized further that it didn't make sense. I realized that many Christians had their own ideas about the boundaries in violence and war but they seemed to be contrived. Because no one wanted to come to Christ's standard, most were in a state of compromise in which they made up their own standard of when it is right and when it is wrong to proceed with violence (i.e. if it is a "just" war, if someone else is threatened but not me, if it is not persecution for being a Christian). I realized that these standards do not come from the Bible but from man and from culture.

There are several other things I studied, such as the early church's view on war as well but all these things only contributed towards a negation of the supposed biblical command to defend the innocent with violent means.

My point though is that although I cannot I say I was completely unbiased, at this point I was willing to do whatever the Lord was speaking into my heart. So if someone had presented evidence that tore up my argument or called it into question, I truly would have considered what they were saying and likely would have chosen to stay in the military as a light to those around me.

Many cannot say that they will do whatever it takes if shown, via Scripture and history, that their current philosophy is moot. They will stick to the same course they always have because it is easiest and doesn't conflict with the culture around them. Trusting God is hard, especially when you are living in sin. For example, ask a lukewarm Christian to sell all their stuff and move to Egypt and preach the Gospel. Even if God came down in a pillar of fire and did this, he would probably convince himself that it couldn't have been God because God would want him to do etc. etc. good things that cannot be done if he moves to Egypt or if he sells all his stuff.

I'm not saying everyone who isn't a pacifist is living in sin but we all should be questioning our own motives and what if there is something that isn't entirely pure behind our motives to not change our views.
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Thank you for sharing your life experience on this matter. It is so amazing how God brings certain things within our life to teach us and to help us to grow in Him.

As for my experience on Pacificism: Well, I never was really a fighter. I pretend fought with my buddies a lot in joking around. We loved action movies and comic books, etc. But any time someone wanted to fight me, I got shaky and tried to avoid the fight. I never had a desire to fight anyone. I always seen fighting as for the other guy who joined the military, or the police, etc.

My idea of fighting was sugar coated by eterntainment so it wasn't all that bad to me. I never had to actually fight or hurt anyone, though. At one point in my faith, I do remember thinking it was okay for believers to go to war and serve as police men. In fact, I remember watching the Christian movie titled "Courageous" with my fiance in 2012 of January and I didn't have a problem with a Christian being a police officer. To me, it seemed normal. So it was probably sometime in 2012 or 2013 when I discovered what Scripture was really saying on the matter.

For me: It wasn't a matter of what I wanted to be true. For there were hard things that I had to accept in the Old Testament as being true when I renewed my faith (when I truly studied God's Word). In other words, I wanted to make sure I was on the right track with what God wanted me to do in regards to this topic.
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#828
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#828
Jason0047 said:
You have no counsel unless you can back up that counsel with the Word of God; And your not getting your meat hooks in me to talk about my personal life.
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As you can see, I do share some things. So I don't mind sharing some childhood experiences and certain events, but talking about my deep personal life such as the one I love is off limits on a public forum. That's personal.
 
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jdbear

Banned
#829
May 14, 2014
611
4
0
#829
Jason0047 said:
You have no counsel unless you can back up that counsel with the Word of God; And your not getting your meat hooks in me to talk about my personal life.
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It's common knowledge among Christians to be honest. That's all. Brother, I don't need to know your baggage. I got enough of my own! :)
 
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elf3

Guest
#830
#830
This has become like teaching an earthworm to fetch. Falls on deaf ears with someone unwilling to listen to reason.
 
blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
#831
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,603
113
#831
elf3 said:
This has become like teaching an earthworm to fetch. Falls on deaf ears with someone unwilling to listen to reason.
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​I just spit out my iced coffee reading this!! LOL!! :)

 
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jdbear

Banned
#834
May 14, 2014
611
4
0
#834
blue_ladybug said:
gzusfrk said:
quote by jdbear:I asked my wife IF, before we were married, she knew that I was a pacifist and would'nt protect her from a rapist with any means possible, would she still marry me...and she said no, because God wants husband's to love their wives more than rapists. So if you're a pacifist and engaged to be married, ask questions before paying the caterer.


He plainly stated here that he would NOT defend her with ANY possible means.. even non-lethal ones..
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Sweetie, I said "if". I was speaking hypothetically. Just so you understand, if I had to kill someone to defend my wife I would.
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blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
#835
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,603
113
#835
jdbear said:
blue_ladybug said:
Sweetie, I said "if". I was speaking hypothetically. Just so you understand, if I had to kill someone to defend my wife I would.
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​That's good. At least you understand that lethal force is not always required.. now if we could only get some others on here to understand....LOL.. :)
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