The Trinity Discussion

bluto · Jul 31, 2017

Why jaybird are you always so "obtuse" in your thinking? I have bent over backwards to address your questions as best I can by using the Bible and even in this case have posted articles and yet you still keep acting childish. This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about which is you take a verse like the "Shema" and then ask what does it mean?

You then get the answer and then question the answer without ever reading the context. I told you that "ONE OF THE PURPOSES OR BETTER YET ONE OF THE APPLACATIONS of the Shema was to warn Israel not to follow after other false gods. Your own question would have been answered if you were not so "LAZY" and read the context surrounding the verse.

At Deuteronomy 5 you have God speaking to Moses and God giving Moses the ten commandments. God then tells Moses at vs6,7, "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." Then what is the first thing God tells Moses/Israel? "You shall have no other gods before Me." Vs8, "You shall not make for yourself an idol. You shal not worship them, vs9.

If you want to know how all of this is connected with the Shema I highly suggest you go see the movie "The Ten Commandments." with Charlton Heston to see what the Jews were doing while Moses was with God getting the Ten Commandments. And that is (what did you say?) how I came up with this "concept?"

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

jaybird88 · Jul 31, 2017

bluto said:

Why jaybird are you always so "obtuse" in your thinking? I have bent over backwards to address your questions as best I can by using the Bible and even in this case have posted articles and yet you still keep acting childish. This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about which is you take a verse like the "Shema" and then ask what does it mean?

You then get the answer and then question the answer without ever reading the context. I told you that "ONE OF THE PURPOSES OR BETTER YET ONE OF THE APPLACATIONS of the Shema was to warn Israel not to follow after other false gods. Your own question would have been answered if you were not so "LAZY" and read the context surrounding the verse.

At Deuteronomy 5 you have God speaking to Moses and God giving Moses the ten commandments. God then tells Moses at vs6,7, "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." Then what is the first thing God tells Moses/Israel? "You shall have no other gods before Me." Vs8, "You shall not make for yourself an idol. You shal not worship them, vs9.

If you want to know how all of this is connected with the Shema I highly suggest you go see the movie "The Ten Commandments." with Charlton Heston to see what the Jews were doing while Moses was with God getting the Ten Commandments. And that is (what did you say?) how I came up with this "concept?"

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

i think your avoiding the question. the Shema has nothig to do with other gods, it specifically is directed at one and only one G-D who according to the Shema is one and only one and not more than one. how many is one?

valiant · Jul 31, 2017

jaybird88 said:

He is revealed as One God in Threeness.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 31, 2017

jaybird88 said:

WHAT DOES SHEMA MEAN?
Question: What does “Shema” mean? Answer: “Shema” is the Hebrew word meaning “hear.” It is an imperative – a command to listen, and is most recognized as beginning the declaration known as “the Shema,” which is found in Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. It is one of the most basic and frequently offered prayers of the Jewish people. Messianic Jews likewise believe that there is only one God, but we believe that this one God is comprised of three Persons – God the Father, God the Son (Messiah Yeshua) and God the Holy Spirit. In fact, when Yeshua was asked by an expert in the Torah which commandment He regarded as being the greatest of all, He answered that the greatest commandment is,Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one,” adding that we are required to love this one God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength (see Mark 12:28-31).

http://www.shema.com/frequently-asked-questions-12659/#Shema

bluto · Jul 31, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Look jaybird, I understand completely the point you are trying to make. You think I'm making excuses because in your mind I'm not answering your specific question the way you want it answered. I said the other gods issue regarding the Shema is one application. There are other things that you are not familar with in the Shema. All you see is that the verse explicitly says there is but one God, period. And this is true, there is only one God.

But what your not understanding because you don't do your homework and you probably did not completely and throughly read the following site I posted. https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/jewishness-and-the-trinity/
If you had read I want to ask you a question for a change. In the Hebrew language there are two words used for our English word, "one." There is the Hebrew word, "yachid" which means an absolute one. Then there is the Hebrew word for "one" which is "echad" and it means a "composite one. Guess which word for "one" is used in the Shema at Deuteronomy 6:4?

It's echad, not yachid. So why did the writer Moses under the influence of the Holy Spirit choose to use echad? I'll give you an example of a composit unity and how the word echad is used at Genesis 2:24, "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall become ONE flesh." In other words, there are two persons in this verse but they are as "ONE"

Now, to bring this point even further I'm going to ask you this question? It says the following at Genesis 17:1, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, THE LORD APPEARED TO ABRAM AND SAID TO HIM, "I AM GOD ALMIGHTY." Walk before Me and be blameless." As you can see it specifically says that the Lord God Almighty appeared to Abram/Abraham.

My question is this? Since the "One God Almighty" appeared to Abraham just like the verse states and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit "CANNOT" be seen according to the Scriptures then who appeared to Abraham? And btw, I know what your thinking? God did not appear to Abraham in a vision or even a dream. He appeared physically to Abraham.

PS: This is also all tied to that word "echad" which is a composite unity.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

bluto · Jul 31, 2017

Dagallen said:

Tell me dagallen, suppose a person was to ask you to explain to them your understanding of Philippians 2:1-11, what would you say to them? What are those verses teaching? I want to know you interpretation of the verses? Secondly, and I don't want to confuse you but can you also explain what Jesus meant when He said at John 10:30, "I and the Father are one?" You can pick which one of these verses you want to address first or you can address both of them. Your call?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Dagallen · Jul 31, 2017

bluto said:

First of all, your question is a loaded question. Second, I have no interpretation of my own because I have no desire to write my own gospel. Philippians 2:1-11 Jesus came in the form of God, making him the image of God but not God himself, he according to his Father's will, he was about his Father's business ( Luke 2:49 ) he came to finish his Father's works, what he heard his Father speak, he spoke, what he saw his Father doing he did, he was equally in His Father's will by obedience, as he came in his Father's name, John 14:28 my Father is greater than I. ( His Father is his God, as no is greater that his God, his Father, not even Jesus himself. As God the Father is the one and only God, the God of Jesus, who sent him. Now this is not my own interpretation, why do I say so ? Jesus made everything about his Father, his God, who is greater than Jesus himself, the Father is greater than I. If I made any typing mistakes above, it's because my phone is very small, if you want to take the above and twist to fit your belief and create a so called gospel of your own, good luck. He came in his Father's name, he spoke his Father's words, he came in the image of his God, that does not make him God himself and by the way, there is no three persons in the God head, there is two, God the Father and in addition to God the Father, there is the Savior who was sent, who sits at the right hand of his God and Father.

Dagallen · Jul 31, 2017

Who gave Jesus a commandment of what to do ? His God,who is his Father. John 14:31

bluto · Jul 31, 2017

Dagallen said:

What a joke dagallen! You just said, " I have no interpretation of my own because I have no desire to write my own gospel." If that's true then why are you telling me what Philippians 2:1-11 means, what Luke 2:49 mens and what John 14:28 means? And how in the world did you determine that my question is loaded? Actually I ask you two question so is the second question about John 10:30 loaded as well?

And btw, Jesus is the only physical manifestation of God His Father and when Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus Christ is the exact representation of His Father's nature it means Jesus Christ is God. Of course you can prove me wrong by giving me an example of a son that does not share the same nature as it's father. Why do you think Jesus Christ is the "One and Only" Son of God as in there are no others according to John 3:16.

And one more thing! If Jesus Christ is the "Savior" as you said how come God says at Isaiah 43:11 this? "I, even I am the Lord; AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." Are there now two saviors? Or is God lying? How do you explain that dagallen?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Dagallen · Jul 31, 2017

bluto said:

What a joke dagallen! You just said, " I have no interpretation of my own because I have no desire to write my own gospel." If that's true then why are you telling me what Philippians 2:1-11 means, what Luke 2:49 mens and what John 14:28 means? And how in the world did you determine that my question is loaded? Actually I ask you two question so is the second question about John 10:30 loaded as well?

And btw, Jesus is the only physical manifestation of God His Father and when Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus Christ is the exact representation of His Father's nature it means Jesus Christ is God. Of course you can prove me wrong by giving me an example of a son that does not share the same nature as it's father. Why do you think Jesus Christ is the "One and Only" Son of God as in there are no others according to John 3:16.

And one more thing! If Jesus Christ is the "Savior" as you said how come God says at Isaiah 43:11 this? "I, even I am the Lord; AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." Are there now two saviors? Or is God lying? How do you explain that dagallen?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Everything I posted comes from scriptures, I did not write the scriptures, so its not my interpretation, show me anything I just posted, that's not scriptures ?

jaybird88 · Jul 31, 2017

bluto said:

Look jaybird, I understand completely the point you are trying to make. You think I'm making excuses because in your mind I'm not answering your specific question the way you want it answered. I said the other gods issue regarding the Shema is one application. There are other things that you are not familar with in the Shema. All you see is that the verse explicitly says there is but one God, period. And this is true, there is only one God.

But what your not understanding because you don't do your homework and you probably did not completely and throughly read the following site I posted. https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/jewishness-and-the-trinity/
If you had read I want to ask you a question for a change. In the Hebrew language there are two words used for our English word, "one." There is the Hebrew word, "yachid" which means an absolute one. Then there is the Hebrew word for "one" which is "echad" and it means a "composite one. Guess which word for "one" is used in the Shema at Deuteronomy 6:4?

It's echad, not yachid. So why did the writer Moses under the influence of the Holy Spirit choose to use echad? I'll give you an example of a composit unity and how the word echad is used at Genesis 2:24, "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall become ONE flesh." In other words, there are two persons in this verse but they are as "ONE"

Now, to bring this point even further I'm going to ask you this question? It says the following at Genesis 17:1, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, THE LORD APPEARED TO ABRAM AND SAID TO HIM, "I AM GOD ALMIGHTY." Walk before Me and be blameless." As you can see it specifically says that the Lord God Almighty appeared to Abram/Abraham.

My question is this? Since the "One God Almighty" appeared to Abraham just like the verse states and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit "CANNOT" be seen according to the Scriptures then who appeared to Abraham? And btw, I know what your thinking? God did not appear to Abraham in a vision or even a dream. He appeared physically to Abraham.

PS: This is also all tied to that word "echad" which is a composite unity.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Jews today just like in the days of Jesus and the 12 never believed echad meant 3 in 1, to them it meant one. thats why they refer to the Most High as He and never a they. no where in scripture is the Most High refereed to as they. you only find this in doctrine outside scripture.
the Essenes were a very messianic sect of Jews in the days of Jesus and the 12, they wrote lots of theology, and in all that writing there is no mention of a trinity.

fredoheaven · Aug 1, 2017

Dagallen said:

ho,ho! this comment above is not part of the scriptures...

valiant · Aug 1, 2017

jaybird88 said:

The disciples were still in formation of their understanding in the Gospels. And how do you know what the believed echad to say? In fact it meant a composite one.

But He is one. God is one, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Their ideas about the Messiah were totally wrong.

valiant · Aug 1, 2017

Dagallen said:

while Jesus was here on earth Jesus addressed His Father as His God because as a man He was His God. But He never spoke of OUR God.

valiant · Aug 1, 2017

Dagallen said:

Then stop giving us your interpretation.

making Him essentially God. Indeed He did not think it robbery to be equal with God. He was given the Name above every Name,, the Name of Yahweh

Because they were one in mind, heart and purpose.

Because He was on earth as a man.

But the Father is NOT the whole of the only God. The Son is also the only God, and so is the Spirit. God is one in Threeness.

But else where He could say, 'I and My Father are one', 'He that has seen Me has seen the Father'. 'That all may honour the Son, AS THEY HONOUR THE FATHER'.

so IT IS or interpretation,

It is you who do that,

God has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, who is the outshining of His glory, and the express image of His Substance. THAT make Him to be God..

Read John 14-16.

Muzungu256 · Aug 1, 2017

i love valiant.......... he brings an image of a british Sir who just quotes someone and replies "nope" with authority and it sticks hahaha............ this is great btw i agree with u brother valiant.

garee · Aug 1, 2017

The whole work of salvation is in respect to two attributes working together in perfect harmony and submission as if there were two persons. God is not a person as us. He is not a created being. The Son of man said of own flesh it profit for nothing.

It is used as a demonstration of a work that was finished from the foundation of the world as the Lamb of God .Again it was a demonstration not the actual work which was finished from the foundation. If we make it into the actual work then we are not walking by faith…. the eternal, but would be walking by sight…. the temporal

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

It would seem the problem is when men try to make God into a man as us. Rather than a God who uses human terms to express he is one entity (Spirit) described by two attributes (Father and a Son). Humans in that respect take two entities’ or two spirits to make a father as if he was a Son. Or a son as if he was a Father.

God is not divided. He remains without father or mother beginning of days or end of spirit life. God cannot die just as he cannot be born.

The voice from heaven was the Spirit of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit that dwelt in the Son of man in that sense the Son of Man who lived in a body of death heard the inward voice . It was recorded for our understanding. You could say God was speaking out loud as if he was speaking to his own self. God communing with a representive of God like self talk for our benifit .

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Son of man trusting his inward strength as if it was his literal father.The food the disciples knew not of . The Spirit of God performing the will of God.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. Luk 22:42

Dagallen · Aug 1, 2017

valiant said:

Then stop giving us your interpretation.

making Him essentially God. Indeed He did not think it robbery to be equal with God. He was given the Name above every Name,, the Name of Yahweh

Because they were one in mind, heart and purpose.

Because He was on earth as a man.

But the Father is NOT the whole of the only God. The Son is also the only God, and so is the Spirit. God is one in Threeness.

But else where He could say, 'I and My Father are one', 'He that has seen Me has seen the Father'. 'That all may honour the Son, AS THEY HONOUR THE FATHER'.

so IT IS or interpretation,

It is you who do that,

God has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, who is the outshining of His glory, and the express image of His Substance. THAT make Him to be God..

Read John 14-16.

You are the one who gives your own interpretation, who died and made you a God of interpretation ?

FeedtheMachine · Aug 1, 2017

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

For what it's worth; the simplest yet weirdest way I have heard someone describe the "Trinity" was likening God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit to an egg. You have an eggshell, egg white and a yoke...it is an egg. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit (these three are one) = God.

trofimus · Aug 1, 2017

Dagallen said:

Can you interpret this for me?

----

"Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." (Acts 20:28)

"...Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
(Phil 2:5-6)

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Col 2:9)

-----

Thanks in advance.

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