To comfort those who speak in tongues

notuptome · Sep 2, 2015

There is one baptism of the Holy Spirit when we are saved. Jesus breathed upon the disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit in John 20. In Acts 2 we Peter filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking to those assembled.

One baptism unto salvation but many fillings for power to minister for the Lord. Many times even in a single day we can and ought to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

When we sin the Holy Spirit is grieved and when we confess and repent the Holy Spirit fills us again. We are cleansed just like when Jesus washed the disciples feet. Not saved again but the dirt of sin washed from our feet as we sojourn through this vile world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

PeacefulWarrior · Sep 2, 2015

ladylynn said:

These twelve men (Acts 19:7) were born again (see note 2 at John 3:3 and note 5 at John 3:7). Otherwise, they would not have been called disciples (see note 8 at John 8:31). It was certain that they were not the Pharisees’ or anyone else’s disciples except the disciples of Jesus, or else Paul would not have asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost since they had believed. He would have known that people cannot receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost until they have first believed on Jesus (see note 27 at John 14:17).Therefore, these men had believed (Acts 19:2) in Jesus, but they were not operating in the power of the Spirit that came through the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2, see note 1 at Acts 18:24). This shows that Christians can be born again without having the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from being born again (see note 6 at Acts 2:4).They heard about the Spirit baptism, believed, were re-baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19:5), and then immediately received the baptism of the Holy Ghost with gifts of the Holy Spirit evident (Acts 19:6). This proves that there does not have to be a waiting period or tarrying for the Holy Ghost (see note 4 at Luke 24:49).

I've gotta run. I'll read more when I return. Thanks for your willingness to share, Lynn!

And thanks to everyone else who has positively contributed!

ladylynn · Sep 2, 2015

Apollos was a Jew, born at Alexandria (see note 4 at Acts 6:9) in Egypt. Special mention is made of Apollos’ powerful ability to communicate and his knowledge of the Scriptures; therefore, his skills must have been very impressive.Apollos knew only the baptism of John the Baptist (Acts 18:25, see note 2 at Acts 19:3). This would imply that he received his revelation of the Messiah from John the Baptist but somehow missed the ministry of Jesus Himself, or if exposed to the ministry of Jesus, he left before the establishment of the church on the Day of Pentecost. It is possible, since Apollos was from Alexandria, that he was in Jerusalem for one of the feasts when he heard the message and believed, then went back home, thus missing the complete Gospel.Regardless, it is clear Apollos was preaching that Jesus was the Christ. The thing that was missing was he was not aware of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. This can be seen by the disciples Paul encountered on his third missionary journey in Ephesus (Acts 19:1-7). These twelve men were believers in Jesus, but they had never heard of the Holy Ghost. When Paul asked them unto what they were baptized, they answered, “unto John’s baptism” (Acts 19:3). This no doubt reflects that they were converts of Apollos during his ministry in Ephesus, before Aquila and Priscilla instructed him.Therefore, it can be supposed that part of the instruction that Aquila and Priscilla gave Apollos was about the baptism of the Holy Ghost (see note 6 at Acts 2:4). It is also possible that Aquila and Priscilla shared Paul’s revelation of grace with Apollos (Acts 18:27). It is to Apollos’ credit that such a powerful man was willing to humble himself and receive instruction (Proverbs 9:9).When Apollos decided to head into Achaia (see note 11 at Acts 18:12), the disciples at Ephesus sent a letter to the brethren there, exhorting them to receive Apollos and his ministry (Acts 18:27). Apollos was used mightily to preach the Gospel (Acts 18:28), insomuch that many of the Corinthians formed a sect around his teachings (1 Corinthians 3:4).Despite the fact that some of the Corinthians used Apollos’ teachings to cause a division in the church and discredit Paul, there is no indication that Paul and Apollos ever had a problem with each other or their teachings. To the contrary, Paul greatly urged Apollos to return to Corinth to instruct the brethren (1 Corinthians 16:12), and he instructed Titus to help Apollos with anything he needed for his journey (Titus 3:13).

I hope this gives some clarity. I'm still learning about this myself. No matter how long we are saved we are always learning. No one has "arrived" to know it all. It is very interesting to me how very much many of us are like Apollos and so many strong preachers and teachers who are saved and following the Lord do not know or believe in the baptism of the HolySpirit since we already have Him when we got saved. That's what I couldn't figure before reading and learning on this subject. How come no one in my Baptist upbringing never taught about this?? I was never a big reader of Acts since we were always taught that it was the establishing of the church and it's over with. So I just skimmed over it with the idea that since they didn't share all things in common and today we all live in our own houses and are not responsible for each other anymore like back then., so must the other things like tongues and healings etc..

I was wrong on all counts. It's my responsibility to help my brothers and sisters and to be responsible for helping them. And also learn about the gifts for the church as well. All are just as important. Yes, we have the Bible but we need the gifts just as much as we need to help each other and allow the Lord to transform us through His Word., just like they did in the early church.

Angela53510 · Sep 2, 2015

So much rhetoric on this thread. Like not fearing God. Or being afraid of the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, a term which does not actually appear in the Bible.

I will state once again. I was a Pentecostal for 15 years. I spoke in tongues. I thought I was doing what God required, but I learned it was a man-made doctrine. I also learned, after a friend honestly spoke in an unknown tongue (Arminian) and 27 people got saved from those 4 words, that was the REAL tongues, not the nonsense I had been doing and everyone else.

To say nothing of the shallowness of the doctrine, the lack of transformation in people's lives, including the leadership. God challenged me to step out of my Pentecostal box and actually read the Bible to see if it was true. Not just gloss over the pages like I had been doing. And I found my church was out of order. So I left, stopped babbling and I have never once regretted that decision.

Why? Because I have grown more in both the fruits and the gifts than I ever did in those long boring dry spiritual years in churches, large and small, which emphasized tongues and gifts, instead of fruits and transformation. After 10 years, I went to Seminary, where I studied even more deeply and confirmed what God had already told me.

As for not having the Holy Spirit or the gifts because you refuse to babble, time to check the Scriptures. And to learn what the gifts really are, and how they are used to edify the body, not self. And notice that Paul talks about languages in 1 Cor. 12, but not everyone has it!! That is another thing that points to lie of "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues," In this day and age, I think tongues is the rarest of all the gifts, given to evangelists to win people to Christ in their own language.

"Based on the gift each one has received, use it to serve others, as good managers of the varied grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, it should be as one who speaks God’s words; if anyone serves, it should be from the strength God provides, so that God may be glorified through Jesus Christ in everything. To Him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen." 1 Peter 4:10-11

"3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.4 Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are different activities, but the same God activates each gift in each person. 7 A demonstration of the Spirit is given to each person to produce what is beneficial:
8 to one is given a message of wisdom
through the Spirit,
to another, a message of knowledge
by the same Spirit,
9 to another, faith by the same Spirit,
to another, gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 to another, the performing of miracles,
to another, prophecy,
to another, distinguishing between spirits,
to another, different kinds of languages,
to another, interpretation of languages." 1 Cor. 12:3-10

"For by the grace given to me, I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he should think. Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one. 4 Now as we have many parts in one body, and all the parts do not have the same function, 5 in the same way we who are many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another. 6 According to the grace given to us, we have different gifts:If prophecy,
use it according to the standard of one’s[ faith;
7 if service, in service;
if teaching, in teaching;
8 if exhorting, in exhortation;
giving, with generosity;
leading, with diligence;
showing mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:3-8

As far as a second baptism beyond water baptism, the Bible doesn't support this. Certainly not by comparing the blood and water that came out of Christ's side! That is stretching the Biblical text beyond recognition! That is eisegesis not exegesis.

One baptism!

"Therefore I, the prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk worthy of the calling you have received, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, accepting one another in love, 3 diligently keeping the unity of the Spirit with the peace that binds us. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope at your calling— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:1-6

ladylynn · Sep 2, 2015

notuptome said:

I was of the same mind until I began to look into the book of Acts more carefully than I did before. I was saved back in 1982 but never knew anymore about the HolySpirit. We were taught He was part of the Godhead but to be a silent part sort of speak. So we never looked into Him much at all. We were admonished to avoid such teachings of the HolySpirit.

Now since learning about how the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ... I have been learning about grace and how it applies to the believer every day even after Eph.2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith....

There is more to the Gospel (good news) than we first learned. For instance, I no longer believe that I'm not cleansed completely every day since accepting Jesus. As far as the east is from the west., so far has He taken my sin.
Jesus Christ took all my sins past present and future so that there is nothing between God and me because of Jesus. The veil was torn in two. We have full access to the Father through the Son. When I'm seen, it's in Christs gift of righteousness. We are the righteousness of God in Christ.

Romans 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And so, as this truth of grace comes into my heart, it's been a journey learning about the gifts He has for all of us. I never asked and have been asking and have received. I want all the Lord has for me. There are great and many precious promises.

ember · Sep 2, 2015

KennethC said:

well what I am saying is you do not somehow loose the Holy Spirit!

David did pray that God would not take His Holy Spirit from him because of his sin...God took the innocent result of that sin

There are always consequences...sin is death

ember · Sep 2, 2015

yeah Angela ok...we get it...you were duped etc etc

that is not the testimony of myself and others here though

myself? I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT! and praying in tongues...my experience is IN LINE WITH SCRIPTURE so I guess you had bad teachers

you know, the emphasis is not on the gifts...it is on our Lord Jesus Christ...so I don't know why you keep repeating all this negativity...that may all be so for you....but not at all so for 10s of thousands

and please do not think I want to argue with you it is just that you keep repeating how awful your experience was...it really needs to be understood that is not the norm for the genuine thing

respectfully

ember · Sep 2, 2015

your understanding here is not really spot on

tongues are also for prayer and the edification of the individual...as scripture attests...edification does not mean self glorification ...God knows, I certainly do not self glorify...I can do that with other things in church long before I use tongues but I don't....I am not a fake nor a phony and I can say that with all my heart

you know, it is the constant dripping of unmet expectations that sometimes seems to be the problem with people who refuse to even give consideration to what others testify

I dunno....but the whole word of God is true and not just the parts we believe

ladylynn · Sep 2, 2015

ember said:

Remember David was not under the new covenant and he did not have the sealing of the HolySpirit like we do now under the new covenant. The HS came and went back then before Christ died on the cross. The comforter HS came and stayed when Jesus left. (He resides IN us) We are new covenant believers unlike those before us.

A totally different covenant with totally different consequences. For instance where David paid for His sin and its consequences from God., we under the new covenant of grace do not have God's hand of judgment for our sin on us. Jesus took it. David suffered God's direct judgment but God showed mercy and did not kill David as the law said., but allowed Him to live yet the child died., and the sword never left his house.

We will suffer the consequences of our sinful wrong doing and stupidity just by living here on earth. But that is not God's direct judgment on us., but what we do suffer is the natural progression of wrong behavior brought by it's own problems just as right behavior brings it's own positive outcome. If you lie, people call you a liar and don't have a good opinion of you. If you are honest, people will trust you and have a good opinion of you.

So many Christians are accepting judgment as if it is from God when all along it is the accuser of the brethren. The HolySpirit convicts of righteousness (to the believer). John 16:8 There is therefore now NO condemnation for us. Rom.8:1

Angela53510 · Sep 2, 2015

I see lots of talk here about "experiences" and believing the whole Bible. But not a single Scripture posted, except LadyLynn when she cobbled together a bunch of references (which is certainly a better way than no verses at all!) trying to prove the "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit.

And if the verses I posted are wrong, then please feel free to refute them with the Bible, not experiences!

I have to wonder if someone renamed this forum "The Experience Discussion Forum" and I didn't notice when it happened!

ladylynn · Sep 2, 2015

Angela53510 said:

I see lots of talk here about "experiences" and believing the whole Bible. But not a single Scripture posted, except LadyLynn when she cobbled together a bunch of references (which is certainly a better way than no verses at all!) trying to prove the "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit.

And if the verses I posted are wrong, then please feel free to refute them with the Bible, not experiences!

I have to wonder if someone renamed this forum "The Experience Discussion Forum" and I didn't notice when it happened!

ladylynn · Sep 2, 2015

I see our dear Angela does not lack for sharing her experiences with us too!!

Note post 604 (one of mannnny)

ember · Sep 2, 2015

Angela53510 said:

that's not fair Angela...I have posted many scriptures concerning the topic of this thread...just do a search on my posts...I think you know that

further, you think it fair to discuss YOUR opinion via personal experience...I mean...let's get real here

ember · Sep 2, 2015

ladylynn said:

yup... just so

thinking of it, David got in trouble a number of times...numbering Israel...the incident with the ark when someone touched it and they died and David was angry at God

He is so human! he is a wonderful example of God's grace, mercy and love...God chose this guy...so He had alot invested in Him but we see that no matter how much we may want to do what is right, it does not always come to that conclusion

true...however and this regretfully, there is an awful lot of baring false witness going on in the Christian world today...church to church...family to family...and of course let the reader finish the sentence..

Extremely important to recognize who the actual accuser is!

we could go on about that one all night

ladylynn · Sep 2, 2015

ember said:

Yes, but it gives us the opportunity to show the grace God has gifted to us and give it out. The understanding that people are so human like you said and how God's grace, mercy and love is invested in us as well even when we fall flat on our faces like David and he didn't live under grace but instead a covenant of law.. So giving out the grace God is putting in us and investing in us when we feel our human temper rise or our pride get spiked is the right move right?

Who knows the many experiences that drive angry people? As a Christian I've done some really stupid things and assumed things about people that were not true. I honestly thought I knew! Takes time for God to show us our motives. We all have done it even as Christians unfortunately. Now we can learn from the mistakes we have made and mingle among our fellow brothers and sisters and be less like that. Even when we are insulted and wrongfully accused and judged.

I can't tell you how many times I've typed something and cancelled it and been so glad. My annoyance just lasts a tiny bit if I don't feed it by rehearsing it. I've read a bunch of your posts and you pretty much have a handle on refusing to jump in with both feet in annoyance too in your responses to others who are not always gracious. So I know you understand what I mean. Some things are just better left unsaid or can be said better and more clearly another time. Like you wrote here:

tongues are also for prayer and the edification of the individual...as scripture attests...edification does not mean self glorification ...God knows, I certainly do not self glorify...I can do that with other things in church long before I use tongues but I don't....I am not a fake nor a phony and I can say that with all my heart

you know, it is the constant dripping of unmet expectations that sometimes seems to be the problem with people who refuse to even give consideration to what others testify

I dunno....but the whole word of God is true and not just the parts we believe

I appreciate your kindness and understanding in this post for instance. And btw, also agree with what you said about the edification far from being self glorification. I've also been reading about how it not only helps us in our prayer and worship, but also our health for our physical selves too. Each person is different but like many people I've experienced a peace and calmness with the Lord. And since I'm new to this gift, I've only used it in prayer all by myself or while driving.

convallaria · Sep 3, 2015

ladylynn said:

Hi Ladylynn,

I totally agree the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a separate experience subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit at our new birth. It is powerful and personal and often accompanied by tongues and prophecy, and also the demonstration of other giftings. Mine was a few years after I was saved, when I was alone in my room at home. I experienced all the burden of my troubles taken literally on the shoulders of Jesus. I felt alive in every nerve ending to the power of God. I found that the experience catupulted me forward into a greater level of faith immediately so that I was propelled into ministry.

There is a teaching out there that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the same as baptism in water, or at the same time. This accounts for why many claim to be baptized in the Holy Spirit without having had any personal Holy Spirit experience. I feel it is dangerous because it stops people seeking what God wants them to have.

Blessings, Con

Angela53510 · Sep 3, 2015

ladylynn said:

Funny! In post #604 I counted 4 Bible passages. I put them in red so you can know it is the Bible, and not my opinions or experiences.

I do confess to giving my testimony somewhere in one of these threads. But then, I was asked by convallaria to give it, although sadly, she made no comment or acknowledgment of the mighty way God has been working in my life

Angela53510 · Sep 3, 2015

convallaria said:

So show us the verses that show there are two separate experiences. (I notice you used the word experience FOUR times in your short post!) Because what I find in the Bible is ONE baptism.

"4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:4-6

Some people just keep using the word "experience" instead of refuting Scripture with Scripture. And there is an important reason to use Scripture - because it is the perfect standard that has been given to us. All our "experiences" and "opinions" need to be weighed in light of Scripture, not the doctrinal statement of the Assemblies of God, or other charismatic type churches.

The problem is you have heard this repeated over and over in these churches so many times, it starts to become true without testing it against the Bible. Convallaria, please start posting some Bible verses to support your claims. Your opinions and experiences mean nothing to me. So much idle chit chat.

But passages from the Bible - now that is a totally different story.. I await, ready and willing to learn.

PS. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. That is when we are sealed. Water baptism is the outward confession of our faith, and it is a remembrance in which we participate because Jesus did, and because it reminds us of what he did on the cross for us. No saving value and not the time when the Holy Spirit comes into our lives.

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," Eph. 1:13

wattie · Sep 3, 2015

Angela53510 said:

So show us the verses that show there are two separate experiences. (I notice you used the word experience FOUR times in your short post!) Because what I find in the Bible is ONE baptism.

"4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:4-6

Some people just keep using the word "experience" instead of refuting Scripture with Scripture. And there is an important reason to use Scripture - because it is the perfect standard that has been given to us. All our "experiences" and "opinions" need to be weighed in light of Scripture, not the doctrinal statement of the Assemblies of God, or other charismatic type churches.

The problem is you have heard this repeated over and over in these churches so many times, it starts to become true without testing it against the Bible. Convallaria, please start posting some Bible verses to support your claims. Your opinions and experiences mean nothing to me. So much idle chit chat.

But passages from the Bible - now that is a totally different story.. I await, ready and willing to learn.

PS. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. That is when we are sealed. Water baptism is the outward confession of our faith, and it is a remembrance in which we participate because Jesus did, and because it reminds us of what he did on the cross for us. No saving value and not the time when the Holy Spirit comes into our lives.

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," Eph. 1:13
[/QUOTE

Looking at Acts when the church at Jerusalem was empowered, given the Holy Spirit 'in the midst' I think is actually the fulfillment of Jesus saying to the disciples he would 'baptise with fire'

Things to note about the pentecost experience in Acts:

These were already saved members of the Jerusalem church being empowered. Matthew 18 has Jesus with His disciples as the first church. How could anyone 'tell it to the church' if there was none?

So first- these are mostly already saved people who are empowered. Individuals who, like you say have the Holy Spirit in their souls.

Now here is the thing that changes the look of so many verses- in Acts at Pentecost and further in Acts you find GROUPS being empowered, given the Holy Spirit not for individual salvation but as churches being given the holy Spirit 'in the midst'

The mix up is when a group experience is made to be an individuals experience alone.

A whole church may lose the Holy Spirit from the presence of it. It no longer is a church God has.

The individuals in the church are still each one indwelled by the Holy Spirit even tho the Holy Spirit is no longer 'in the midst '

So yeah i agree with- salvation without water baptism or 'baptism of tge the Holy Spirit'

There is though a second experience of the Holy Spirit coming to be the Comforter to one of His churches. Of course not many people would actually have experienced this as it is when a church is first made by God. Probably just the pastor that planted the church might experience this unless it was started with a number of people there to begin with.

The term 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' gets bandied about and is usually associated with an individual in some ecstatic experience.

All i see in scripture is the Holy Spirit being sent to be the Lampstand for His churches. And this not being an experience for every believer but for those there when a church is first given the Holy Spirit.

And then it isnt all signs and wonders but the conviction on the church thar the Holy Spirit is among them.

convallaria · Sep 3, 2015

wattie said:

Angela53510 said:

So show us the verses that show there are two separate experiences. (I notice you used the word experience FOUR times in your short post!) Because what I find in the Bible is ONE baptism.

"4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:4-6

Some people just keep using the word "experience" instead of refuting Scripture with Scripture. And there is an important reason to use Scripture - because it is the perfect standard that has been given to us. All our "experiences" and "opinions" need to be weighed in light of Scripture, not the doctrinal statement of the Assemblies of God, or other charismatic type churches.

The problem is you have heard this repeated over and over in these churches so many times, it starts to become true without testing it against the Bible. Convallaria, please start posting some Bible verses to support your claims. Your opinions and experiences mean nothing to me. So much idle chit chat.

But passages from the Bible - now that is a totally different story.. I await, ready and willing to learn.

PS. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. That is when we are sealed. Water baptism is the outward confession of our faith, and it is a remembrance in which we participate because Jesus did, and because it reminds us of what he did on the cross for us. No saving value and not the time when the Holy Spirit comes into our lives.

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," Eph. 1:13
[/QUOTE

Looking at Acts when the church at Jerusalem was empowered, given the Holy Spirit 'in the midst' I think is actually the fulfillment of Jesus saying to the disciples he would 'baptise with fire'

Things to note about the pentecost experience in Acts:

These were already saved members of the Jerusalem church being empowered. Matthew 18 has Jesus with His disciples as the first church. How could anyone 'tell it to the church' if there was none?

So first- these are mostly already saved people who are empowered. Individuals who, like you say have the Holy Spirit in their souls.

Now here is the thing that changes the look of so many verses- in Acts at Pentecost and further in Acts you find GROUPS being empowered, given the Holy Spirit not for individual salvation but as churches being given the holy Spirit 'in the midst'

The mix up is when a group experience is made to be an individuals experience alone.

A whole church may lose the Holy Spirit from the presence of it. It no longer is a church God has.

The individuals in the church are still each one indwelled by the Holy Spirit even tho the Holy Spirit is no longer 'in the midst '

So yeah i agree with- salvation without water baptism or 'baptism of tge the Holy Spirit'

There is though a second experience of the Holy Spirit coming to be the Comforter to one of His churches. Of course not many people would actually have experienced this as it is when a church is first made by God. Probably just the pastor that planted the church might experience this unless it was started with a number of people there to begin with.

The term 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' gets bandied about and is usually associated with an individual in some ecstatic experience.

All i see in scripture is the Holy Spirit being sent to be the Lampstand for His churches. And this not being an experience for every believer but for those there when a church is first given the Holy Spirit.

And then it isnt all signs and wonders but the conviction on the church thar the Holy Spirit is among them.

Experience with God is another way of saying testimony.

To comfort those who speak in tongues

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