Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil and being Joint Heirs with Christ.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

JohnR7

Active member
Dec 30, 2019
806
174
43
why is God filling the ark with animals of every kind if only a comparably very small area of the world is being destroyed?
This is why you need to read your Biology book. The animals on Noah's ARK are the Animals we read about in the Bible. They come from the bio diverse eco system that was located in the Tigris - Euphrates River valley. People are part of an eco system. That is what Noah saved on the ARK. The whole Eco System needed for him and his family to survive.

This is a lot easier with the plants. There are people at the University of Jerusalem with a PhD in Botany that are experts on the domestication of the wild plants in the Middle East. There are experts on the domestication of the animals also. We have selective breeding and we have natural selection.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,401
7,503
113
If we go to Cheddar England we find the descendants of Cheddar man from around 10,000 years ago. So it is pretty obvious that Noah's flood did not kill the people that were living in Cheddar England at the time.
i don't necessarily subscribe to a 6,000 year timeline of the earth. the Bible telescopes genealogies. i have no idea how long Adam lived in the garden before he sinned or how his age should be counted. do we start from his creation or from the fall? i hardly even know how to count at all - it is not a given that time has always progressed at the same rate, and the scripture makes it clear that God has absolute control over the passage of it, and doesn't look at the passage of time like we do: but He regards it in a radically different way.

an example is the calendar that the Hebrews use. twelve 30-day months. now, we ought to ask ourselves, why is this God's calendar if it doesn't make a full year? is God bad at math? nope lol. so did the earth *used to have* a 360 day year? and why aren't the periods of the moon and sun in sync? these are supposed to be the things God ordained for us to tell time with. why two clocks that don't agree with each other? what does that tell us about time? have they always been this way? we observe that they are changing. the lengths of days and years and phases of the moon aren't constant from cycle to cycle.

God's eternal qualities are clearly seen by what is made. what does nature tell us about time? what does the observable nature of time tell us about God? and what does it tell us about what we really know about setting dates for the future or the past?
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
3,643
1,429
113
When I was in Manila the food vendors cooked them on a stick and people ate them.
Yea maybe it’s because I’m to American eating at the big yellow arches or something probably that is a no brainer then again when I was a child I ate Raisin Bran like three times a day, my parents had a hard time getting me to eat different things, even today of greens I only like green beans, peas lettuce and I acquired the taste for broccoli after many years of completely disliking them I don’t know what changed but I seem to like them now.
 

JohnR7

Active member
Dec 30, 2019
806
174
43
a person driving a car with a 6-figure price tag isn't necessarily any better of a driver than someone in a $350 beater.
They are most likely a better student so that they are able to get a better paying job. 20% of the people make more then $100,000 a year. I have a friend who has a step daughter that is complaining about having to wash dishes for min wages. They are trying to get her to take classes at the college so she can get a better job but she does not want to do that either. My son is working on a degree in computer engineering and he has no empathy for people that are not willing to work hard to get a education so they can get a good paying job. He is already getting paid $20 an hour and he is still in school. Doing stuff he was doing anyways. They gave him a gopro camera and they wanted him to work on making training films. He is not allowed to talk to the people on the assembly line directly because they would be asking him question about what they are going to automate next and who is going to be out of a job. That could cause a lot of disruption.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
3,643
1,429
113
They are most likely a better student so that they are able to get a better paying job. 20% of the people make more then $100,000 a year. I have a friend who has a step daughter that is complaining about having to wash dishes for min wages. They are trying to get her to take classes at the college so she can get a better job but she does not want to do that either. My son is working on a degree in computer engineering and he has no empathy for people that are not willing to work hard to get a education so they can get a good paying job. He is already getting paid $20 an hour and he is still in school. Doing stuff he was doing anyways. They gave him a gopro camera and they wanted him to work on making training films. He is not allowed to talk to the people on the assembly line directly because they would be asking him question about what they are going to automate next and who is going to be out of a job. That could cause a lot of disruption.
That’s not always correct better student gets the better job, levels of IQ range vastly among people.
 

JohnR7

Active member
Dec 30, 2019
806
174
43
i don't necessarily subscribe to a 6,000 year timeline of the earth. the Bible telescopes genealogies. i have no idea how long Adam lived in the garden before he sinned or how his age should be counted.
The geneologies are VERY easy to follow from Adam to Abraham. Any grade school student could do the math. "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth." (Genesis5:3) Also we have Bishop Usshers book that has all of this information. The Bishop used all the resources available to him at the time he wrote his book. John Lightfoot published a similar chronology at about the same time.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,401
7,503
113
the one difference I do see is animals where never mentioned as created in the likeness of God.

Man Being made in the image and likeness of God means that human beings are like God not saying we are gods but God is a spiritual being. so if man was the only creation that is in that likeness then man in my opinion seems to be the only ones who depart earthly life in a spiritual way.

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)
when i put that together with Genesis 2 & 7 describing all animals in the same way as 'living souls' and having the same 'breath of life' it convinces me that we are not different in those basic senses of having an eternal existence before God and a dualistic basic nature, with a physical body made of dust that returns to dust, and a spiritual essence that returns to God.

at the same time, we are made after His image, and given dominion over all the other living souls. so there's obviously a difference, and God has made us in some divine measure 'above' them, but below angels. it's a funny thought, what did angels think about mankind when they watched us being created? do they have souls? do angels have something else we don't have, and did they debate amongst themselves speculating about whether we do or not? and how much more shall we be, when Christ returns and fully redeems us! we don't even know what we truly are; we're like seeds planted in dust.

i have no idea whether a zebra and a mongoose aren't similarly subjected to bondage in creation, under sin, and will one day be fantastically renewed. when Balaam's donkey was talking to him, the Bible speaks about him as tacitly having personhood. it doesn't say something was added to him, just that the Lord opened his mouth. it reads to me like all the things he said, and what he knew about right and wrong, he was already thinking just didn't have the means to communicate it. Solomon writes about this saying 'the righteous regard the life of their animals' - why do they do this? what is righteous about it? what does it mean, 'regard' and what does it mean, 'life' ? we know that to God, 'life' is a lot more than just the physical body.


it's a lot to think about, that there is so much of it scarcely knowable for us, at least at present. o_O


 

JohnR7

Active member
Dec 30, 2019
806
174
43
That’s not always correct better student gets the better job, levels of IQ range vastly among people.
There are exceptional people with high IQ's. They grade on a curve so actually that makes it even harder for the people that have to work hard to get a good education. IQ is in itself on a bell curve so that most people are normal. With a few that are high and a few that are low.
 

JohnR7

Active member
Dec 30, 2019
806
174
43
we are made after His image,
" God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness," (Genesis1:26) US means Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Just like we are body, mind & soul. In Hebrew body, heart and soul. Just as the star is made up of two triangles to represent this .
 

Attachments

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
3,643
1,429
113
There are exceptional people with high IQ's. They grade on a curve so actually that makes it even harder for the people that have to work hard to get a good education. IQ is in itself on a bell curve so that most people are normal. With a few that are high and a few that are low.
Yes I think the average is around 100 but there are other things that effect the use of IQ Emotional intelligence (EI) plays apart on learning I think. If a person has a high IQ but emotionally wrecked they probably would have a hard time using that smartness.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
3,643
1,429
113
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)
when i put that together with Genesis 2 & 7 describing all animals in the same way as 'living souls' and having the same 'breath of life' it convinces me that we are not different in those basic senses of having an eternal existence before God and a dualistic basic nature, with a physical body made of dust that returns to dust, and a spiritual essence that returns to God.

at the same time, we are made after His image, and given dominion over all the other living souls. so there's obviously a difference, and God has made us in some divine measure 'above' them, but below angels. it's a funny thought, what did angels think about mankind when they watched us being created? do they have souls? do angels have something else we don't have, and did they debate amongst themselves speculating about whether we do or not? and how much more shall we be, when Christ returns and fully redeems us! we don't even know what we truly are; we're like seeds planted in dust.

i have no idea whether a zebra and a mongoose aren't similarly subjected to bondage in creation, under sin, and will one day be fantastically renewed. when Balaam's donkey was talking to him, the Bible speaks about him as tacitly having personhood. it doesn't say something was added to him, just that the Lord opened his mouth. it reads to me like all the things he said, and what he knew about right and wrong, he was already thinking just didn't have the means to communicate it. Solomon writes about this saying 'the righteous regard the life of their animals' - why do they do this? what is righteous about it? what does it mean, 'regard' and what does it mean, 'life' ? we know that to God, 'life' is a lot more than just the physical body.

it's a lot to think about, that there is so much of it scarcely knowable for us, at least at present. o_O
Looking how the Hebrew uses the word soul can mean different things and not always a eternal state so there’s that too I think careful examination of how the word was used in scripture for it’s mentioned in a verity of ways.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
3,643
1,429
113
Then there’s this if animals have eternal souls am I going to see the animals I ate for food, Bible says it’s ok to eat them Jesus even ate a lamb. how can these animals that we kill and eat be in heaven. do we apologize to them for eating them on earth in heaven. or do we consume their souls when we eat an animal
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,401
7,503
113
Then there’s this if animals have eternal souls am I going to see the animals I ate for food, Bible says it’s ok to eat them Jesus even ate a lamb. how can these animals that we kill and eat be in heaven. do we apologize to them for eating them on earth in heaven. or do we consume their souls when we eat an animal
it's clear God's original order before sin entered the world was for us to eat plants. they're not called 'living souls' like we and the animals are. the fact that God gave Noah all living things as food after the flood is amazing, and i don't fully comprehend what it means, what the implications are, why He chose to do this at that time, but i believe that since God gave it - and in the person of Christ continued in it, even eating fish after being resurrected, then He has provisioned in the order of spiritual things for it just as He did in the flesh. maybe this is part of the bondage to corruption that all creation is under -- i for one do not believe there was death on earth before sin; i think Romans 5:12 doesn't leave any room for it. which makes the worldview JohnR7 is teaching in this thread contradictory to scripture. but in death having entered the world, and decay, the world hasn't ceased to operate it was changed, corrupted but functional. God ordered it all with mercy. Native Americans would thank an animal for giving itself when they took it, hunting - it could be that while we as humans would value our life in the flesh over an animals, an animal does not, and doesn't hate us when its body is taken to feed ours - that this is part of man having dominion over the earth. perhaps it is an image of Christ giving His body for us every time we eat -- every time we eat anything. what do i know, i have only lived in earth a very short time, and i know i sure am an ignorant & rambling fool!

i don't think anyone is eating anyone's soul by consuming their flesh. the flesh is not the spirit. i look at the flesh as an interface between the spirit and the physical world -- like, you don't hurt the people you talk to on the phone by turning it off or even smashing it. you only affect the ability for them to communicate.
guess we'd need to go into why God gave laws against eating things that still have the blood in them and against eating blood -- even if you are eating someone while they are alive i don't think you're consuming their spirit.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
3,643
1,429
113
it's clear God's original order before sin entered the world was for us to eat plants. they're not called 'living souls' like we and the animals are. the fact that God gave Noah all living things as food after the flood is amazing, and i don't fully comprehend what it means, what the implications are, why He chose to do this at that time, but i believe that since God gave it - and in the person of Christ continued in it, even eating fish after being resurrected, then He has provisioned in the order of spiritual things for it just as He did in the flesh. maybe this is part of the bondage to corruption that all creation is under -- i for one do not believe there was death on earth before sin; i think Romans 5:12 doesn't leave any room for it. which makes the worldview JohnR7 is teaching in this thread contradictory to scripture. but in death having entered the world, and decay, the world hasn't ceased to operate it was changed, corrupted but functional. God ordered it all with mercy. Native Americans would thank an animal for giving itself when they took it, hunting - it could be that while we as humans would value our life in the flesh over an animals, an animal does not, and doesn't hate us when its body is taken to feed ours - that this is part of man having dominion over the earth. perhaps it is an image of Christ giving His body for us every time we eat -- every time we eat anything. what do i know, i have only lived in earth a very short time, and i know i sure am an ignorant & rambling fool!

i don't think anyone is eating anyone's soul by consuming their flesh. the flesh is not the spirit. i look at the flesh as an interface between the spirit and the physical world -- like, you don't hurt the people you talk to on the phone by turning it off or even smashing it. you only affect the ability for them to communicate.
guess we'd need to go into why God gave laws against eating things that still have the blood in them and against eating blood -- even if you are eating someone while they are alive i don't think you're consuming their spirit.
Well no doubt I was rambling on with that thought lol. it’s complex, like what you mentioned earlier about sea life, dolphins are in the top 5 smartest animals on earth been known to save people from shark attacks.

And about the flood some scripture says not destroyed by water all life, can’t wrap my head around what about sea life the sea sponge deep ocean life isn’t really effected by how much rain falls neither are whales or any aquatic life probably the more the marry as far as sea life concerns
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,401
7,503
113
Looking how the Hebrew uses the word soul can mean different things and not always a eternal state so there’s that too I think careful examination of how the word was used in scripture for it’s mentioned in a verity of ways.
that's true that you can't just substitute 'soul' for 'nephesh' everywhere. sometimes it is really obvious that it's got a different, but related meaning. context and the way the word is used should tells us that.

but the context in Genesis 2 and the language in Genesis 2 is identical, God made the living 'nephesh' He breathed life into man made from dust and man became a living 'nephesh' -- it's same context, same sentence structure, same words, same word forms. we're talking about the creation of living beings, and the Bible uses the same vocabulary to describe them.

i really think the kjv put soul in one place and creature in another in Genesis 2 for no other reason but the person translating it did not believe animals have souls. so instead of going wow, the Bible actually says that? he went, nah, that can't be right. i'll change it in English. there's nothing about the context that says it should be translated differently unless you take for granted this assumption that an animal has no spirit or soul, and force that view onto the text of the scripture as it was written.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,401
7,503
113
The geneologies are VERY easy to follow from Adam to Abraham. Any grade school student could do the math. "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth." (Genesis5:3) Also we have Bishop Usshers book that has all of this information. The Bishop used all the resources available to him at the time he wrote his book. John Lightfoot published a similar chronology at about the same time.
we see telescoping in the genealogies in scripture. we know generations are skipped. knowing that generations are omitted from the record, we have no idea how many. Usher assumed there were none or at most only a couple missing decades. but even when the Bible is listing generations and counting them it may be omitting some. Matthew does. so i know when he, a Jew, lists generations, his primary purpose isn't to be comprehensive.
so how do i know Usher's assumption is valid? i don't. and it is possible his calculation could be off by an indefinite amount.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,401
7,503
113
They are most likely a better student so that they are able to get a better paying job. 20% of the people make more then $100,000 a year. I have a friend who has a step daughter that is complaining about having to wash dishes for min wages. They are trying to get her to take classes at the college so she can get a better job but she does not want to do that either. My son is working on a degree in computer engineering and he has no empathy for people that are not willing to work hard to get a education so they can get a good paying job. He is already getting paid $20 an hour and he is still in school. Doing stuff he was doing anyways. They gave him a gopro camera and they wanted him to work on making training films. He is not allowed to talk to the people on the assembly line directly because they would be asking him question about what they are going to automate next and who is going to be out of a job. That could cause a lot of disruption.
i'm sorry that's laughable argument dude.

i have an IQ in the 170's and a drug dealer makes more money than me. someone who makes pornography makes more money than me. people who play sports professionally or work in hollywood have ridiculous salaries - how are they 'smarter' because they have more money? what someone gets paid varies wildly and isn't explained by how smart you are. not everyone even wants to make a lot of money. maybe all i want to do is not worry about bills, enjoy what i do, and be home often. maybe i like washing dishes. not everyone who has a lot of money got it because of any intelligence or wisdom of their own. not everyone poor is dumb and lazy.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
3,643
1,429
113
that's true that you can't just substitute 'soul' for 'nephesh' everywhere. sometimes it is really obvious that it's got a different, but related meaning. context and the way the word is used should tells us that.

but the context in Genesis 2 and the language in Genesis 2 is identical, God made the living 'nephesh' He breathed life into man made from dust and man became a living 'nephesh' -- it's same context, same sentence structure, same words, same word forms. we're talking about the creation of living beings, and the Bible uses the same vocabulary to describe them.

i really think the kjv put soul in one place and creature in another in Genesis 2 for no other reason but the person translating it did not believe animals have souls. so instead of going wow, the Bible actually says that? he went, nah, that can't be right. i'll change it in English. there's nothing about the context that says it should be translated differently unless you take for granted this assumption that an animal has no spirit or soul, and force that view onto the text of the scripture as it was written.
Yea you may have something there i can’t say for sure they don’t I can only speculate, our own fate is probably the most important if animals are in heaven then that would be the icing on a cake no doubt I would like to see my old friend the stray cat again :) I’ve long forgiven the children that did that to my cat it was very mean and stupid thing to do.

I was just reading up on dolphins and their cognitive capacity is second only to humans and their neocortex is more convoluted than humans their amazing animals, I hope there a new sea for them or a spiritual ocean I don’t know what to say about those creatures.

What Koko did for apes, Flipper did for dolphins. The hit 1960s television series brought home to millions of Americans the sight of a dolphin displaying eerily acute intelligence. Turns out that like the other animal species in this gallery, dolphins possess large brains relative to their body size with a neocortex that is more convoluted than a human's. Experts say that this puts dolphins just behind the human brain when it comes to cognitive capacity. At the same time, the dolphin's brain cortex feature the same convoluted folds that are associated with human intelligence.

After listening to marine animal researchers present this evidence at a conference in 2010, Thomas White, a professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University was moved to declare that dolphins should be considered "non-human persons" who qualify for "moral standing as individuals."


https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/natures-5-smartest-animal-species/5/
 
Mar 23, 2016
3,264
843
113
this stuff, dude, it's beyond us. to God everything is alive but to us, we hardly have eyes to see as it is.
so, so true. I wonder what we'd see if we could see at the atomic level (or sub-atomic)?

I also thought of that verse where Elijah asked God to open the eyes of his servant (2 Kings 6:17).