Trinity vs. Oneness

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Are you Trinitarian, or Sabellian (Oneness, usually, Oneness Pentecostal)?

  • Trinitarian

    Votes: 45 77.6%
  • Sabellion

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • What's the difference?

    Votes: 7 12.1%

  • Total voters
    58
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
And besides this, if we would just listen and let the Holy Spirit teach us, we would find continuing and astounding revelations from scripture. I am constantly amazed at the things He reveals as He takes differing scriptures and makes a hidden truth obvious.

In Christ,
I agree VW it is the spirit who teaches us the truth of God's word and the closer we come tho God, the more we rely on the HS the more REAL truth we learn

But I believe the people at those Nicean Councils were mainly looked to as scholars/theologians and recocnised for their academic knowledge NOT for being full of and being led of the HS

And the HS WILL NOT contradict plain scripture. When that happens it CANNOT be the HS leading anyone
 
Last edited:
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
And besides this, if we would just listen and let the Holy Spirit teach us, we would find continuing and astounding revelations from scripture. I am constantly amazed at the things He reveals as He takes differing scriptures and makes a hidden truth obvious.

In Christ,
Yes. I've spent many years constantly praying for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him. The Spirit shall teach us all things, and will guide us into all truth. It is the spirit of his mouth.

See my upcoming thread, if you're interested.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Okay, now I got what you meant. Thought that would be it, but I try to not make assumptions.

The Father is God, and He sits on the throne of heaven. Everything, every single thing is subject to Him, because He caused it all to exist, and in fact holds it all together by His power. There is nothing and no one who is even close to Him in power and knowledge and wisdom. By any measure, He is immeasurable.

Agreed


Jesus is His express image in bodily form. And just for grins, the Father has given all authority to Jesus, for the express purpose that all might honor Jesus just as they will honor the Father.
Agreed

The Holy Spirit is separate from God, but it is not separate. As the Spirit of God, he goes where the Father wills,
agreed

and is the manifestation of God in the spiritual plane. This is how God can live in us, how we can have the mind of Christ, how we can be the children of God.
And here is where confusion sets in, and where I think we separate, but can not know, because I do not understand what you mean by this.

Just for fun. God can live in us because he is omnipresent, We can have the mind of Christ, because the Holy Spirit, who is in us, Can teach us so we understand. We are children of God because the Father declared it. The son did the work, The HS teaches us, But the father declares it. This is not an act of the spirit.


But the Spirit is more than this. He is in some real way God's heart. He is extremely sensitive to God's will, and to our thoughts and feelings.
The Spirit, having an intimate knowledge of the father, Knows Gods heart, and can share this with us. You do not live an eternity with someone and no know them.


And I am always reminded that one may speak against the Father, or against the Son, and it will be forgiven. But if one speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, in this life, or in the next life.
It is the Holy Spirits Job to teach us, and help us understand the gospel. If we reject the Gospel as taught by him, we call him a liar, if we try to change his gospel, and make it another one, we again call him a liar.

One of the definitions of blasphemy is to dissent, or to disagree with what someone has said. This is the unforgivable sin.

remember, the OT "inspired by the HS" prophesied that the promised one would be known by his miracles. The pharisees were giving credit not to God, but to Satan, (this calling the HS a liar) And Jesus said they "were in danger of" committing blasphemy (they could still change their mind)

We all are, or were in a state of disagreeing with the HS. Jesus is showing that we can change our mind (repent) and agree with the holy spirit. Scripture also states God is patient, and willing that NON should parish, He gives us until the day we die to repent. One who dies having never repented are those who died never having repented of this sin, and thus are beyond forgiveness.


Jesus came into this world last time as a man. This time which is drawing near, He is coming as something more than a man, He is coming as King and Lord and God, to rule and reign on the throne of the world. And every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess Him Lord and God to the glory of the Father.

Anyway, that is the God I know.

In Christ,
Again, I agree
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0





And here is where confusion sets in, and where I think we separate, but can not know, because I do not understand what you mean by this.

Just for fun. God can live in us because he is omnipresent, We can have the mind of Christ, because the Holy Spirit, who is in us, Can teach us so we understand. We are children of God because the Father declared it. The son did the work, The HS teaches us, But the father declares it. This is not an act of the spirit.
I think that I will have to disagree with this statement, the underlined part. Jesus is teaching Nicodemus, and He tells him of the kingdom of heaven, and how one must be born of the Spirit in order to enter the kingdom. And in John's letter to the church, we see how the seed of God is in us. We are born of God, by the Holy Spirit, not because God declared it. We have the new nature placed in us, along with the Spirit's indwelling presence, which has nothing to do with God's omnipresence. He is in us not like He is in the rest of creation. Other wise, there would be no giving of the Spirit.

I have heard this before, and I wonder at where this came from.

In His love and peace,
vic
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest


I think that I will have to disagree with this statement, the underlined part. Jesus is teaching Nicodemus, and He tells him of the kingdom of heaven, and how one must be born of the Spirit in order to enter the kingdom.
Yes, And how is one "born of the spirit"?

And in John's letter to the church, we see how the seed of God is in us. We are born of God, by the Holy Spirit, not because God declared it. We have the new nature placed in us, along with the Spirit's indwelling presence,
Non of this is possible unless we are declared "Justified" One who is not justified (declared innocent) by the father is still dead in their sin, and has no new life.

which has nothing to do with God's omnipresence. He is in us not like He is in the rest of creation. Other wise, there would be no giving of the Spirit.
Satan can not be in me, and in someone else. No angel can be with me, and someone around the world. For neither is omnipresent.

The HS can be in me, while in the guy next to me, and in someone on the other side of the earth because he is omnipresent, without omnipresence. The HS could only be in one person at a time.
I have heard this before, and I wonder at where this came from.

In His love and peace,
vic[/quote]

well now you have a taste of where it came from.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest


I think that I will have to disagree with this statement, the underlined part. Jesus is teaching Nicodemus, and He tells him of the kingdom of heaven, and how one must be born of the Spirit in order to enter the kingdom.
Yes, And how is one "born of the spirit"?
And in John's letter to the church, we see how the seed of God is in us. We are born of God, by the Holy Spirit, not because God declared it. We have the new nature placed in us, along with the Spirit's indwelling presence,
Non of this is possible unless we are declared "Justified" One who is not justified (declared innocent) by the father is still dead in their sin, and has no new life.

which has nothing to do with God's omnipresence. He is in us not like He is in the rest of creation. Other wise, there would be no giving of the Spirit.
Satan can not be in me, and in someone else. No angel can be with me, and someone around the world. For neither is omnipresent.

The HS can be in me, while in the guy next to me, and in someone on the other side of the earth because he is omnipresent, without omnipresence. The HS could only be in one person at a time.


[/quote]I have heard this before, and I wonder at where this came from.

In His love and peace,
vic[/quote]

well now you have a taste of where it came from.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
Yes, And how is one "born of the spirit"?


Non of this is possible unless we are declared "Justified" One who is not justified (declared innocent) by the father is still dead in their sin, and has no new life.



Satan can not be in me, and in someone else. No angel can be with me, and someone around the world. For neither is omnipresent.

The HS can be in me, while in the guy next to me, and in someone on the other side of the earth because he is omnipresent, without omnipresence. The HS could only be in one person at a time.
I have heard this before, and I wonder at where this came from.

In His love and peace,
vic[/quote]

well now you have a taste of where it came from. [/quote]

It don't fly. If this is true, then the Holy Spirit was with you always, and in you always. I don't think that you will agree to this.

We are justified by faith. But we are made righteous by birth. Let me quote for you a little word from John:

No one who practices sin is born of God, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious.

God is a spirit, and His children are born as spiritual beings. Yes, we inhabit fleshly bodies which contain nothing good in them. And no, the spiritual children we are does not sin. And the working out of our salvation is to grow into this spiritual being, dying from the physical being, thus becoming more like our Father and our Lord. We do this in His presence, where we behold Him with open staring eyes. And beholding His glory, we are changed into His image, from glory to glory.

Had a taste, don't like it. Sorry.

In His peace without malice and in His love,
vic
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It don't fly. If this is true, then the Holy Spirit was with you always, and in you always. I don't think that you will agree to this.
Actually quite the opposite. Without justification, the HS could never be in anyone. I do not see how you could come up to this conclusion.

We are justified by faith. But we are made righteous by birth. Let me quote for you a little word from John:

No one who practices sin is born of God, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious.

We are made righteous, and newly born because of justification. If one is not justified, they are dead because of sin. Without forgiveness there can be no new birth


God is a spirit, and His children are born as spiritual beings. Yes, we inhabit fleshly bodies which contain nothing good in them. And no, the spiritual children we are does not sin. And the working out of our salvation is to grow into this spiritual being, dying from the physical being, thus becoming more like our Father and our Lord. We do this in His presence, where we behold Him with open staring eyes. And beholding His glory, we are changed into His image, from glory to glory.
This still does not show how what I said was false.

Had a taste, don't like it. Sorry.

In His peace without malice and in His love,
vic
If your not justified, Your not born again, and have no means of being born again. Your still dead in your sin.

Had a taste of that. Do not want it again. Thank God because of his son, I do not have to be like this again!
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
Actually quite the opposite. Without justification, the HS could never be in anyone. I do not see how you could come up to this conclusion.



We are made righteous, and newly born because of justification. If one is not justified, they are dead because of sin. Without forgiveness there can be no new birth




This still does not show how what I said was false.



If your not justified, Your not born again, and have no means of being born again. Your still dead in your sin.

Had a taste of that. Do not want it again. Thank God because of his son, I do not have to be like this again!
There are two ways of looking at salvation, and scripture provides us with both. One is the legal aspect, and the other is the family aspect. Both are true, but one must lead to the other, but I believe that one cannot be justified without the work of the Holy Spirit in their heart. Neither can one become righteous without this new birth. (Many misunderstand the righteousness that is of faith, when the example given is Abrahan believing what God said to him.)

Again, Paul writes this about us:

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him, through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death is no longer master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so, consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Much that Paul wrote is easy to misunderstand. Peter warned of this in his letter. The simple truth is that we are part of a plan, which has been God's plan from the very beginning. He wanted companions and children and worshipers that He could shower the riches of His love on, for eternity. To be any of these, we must be all of these. We are members of the kingdom of heaven, but we cannot even see the kingdom unless we are born of the Spirit. And the grace that Paul writes of is not some nebulous thing that cannot be explained; it is fellowship with God, which is what He has always desired from us. (God was angry with the children of Israel in the wilderness at the mountain, because they turned their backs on Him, hardening their hearts to not hear His voice.[They told Moses to not let God speak to them])

I know from the Spirit that there has been way too much emphasis put on the faith and the justification and the righteousness aspects of our salvation, to the detriment of the aspects which make us the children of God, the Holy Spirit's indwelling, and the voice of God, and entering His presence, even within the veil. Paul wrote that if we are lead by the Spirit, then we are God's children. But if not, then we are not.

When it all shakes out, I would like to think that I cared about my being God's child first and foremost, over the forensic aspect of salvation. For if we have the Spirit and hear His voice, then we know that we are His sheep, (His children,) and that He knows us. I just cannot run the risk of hearing Him say to me in that day, "I never knew you." I am afraid that many who believed to justification never knew God as Father, and never cried "Abba, Father!"

In His love,
vic
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
In case you have not figured it out yet, I ain't oneness either.

And fellowship cannot be based on the fact that we have the same doctrines. Fellowship can only be based upon the fact that we have the same Spirit, the same Lord, the same Father.

In Christ,
Red

I don't know if you have read #997, but if you have can you not see that this is not a discussion concerning the nature of who Christ was on earth but rather whether Christ can be called God Himself(the one true God)

I believe that the Holy Spirit was on Christ while he was on earth in BODILY FORM
Can you stop to think about what that actually means?
The Father was in effect in the son through the spirit in bodily form, BUT this happened just before Christ began his public ministry, not before.

Therefore the son was a perfect reflection through the Spirit of who the Father is(hence Christ's words to Philip that you so often quote)
Anyone who saw Christ saw a true reflection of who his Father is BY THE SPIRIT IN CHRIST
And hence much else of what Christ said and did too

But he STILL drew the distinction that only the Father was the one true God

Everything the son did during his ministry was a reflection of who his Father is, for the spirit was on him in BODILY FORM
The work of the Father was being done through the son by the Spirit
So, why do you say I am possessed by the spirit of antichrist?
Because to you we have to say Christ is God Almighty, or the one true God

Well that may sound very rational given what I have just said, BUT THEN you run into trouble with much plain scripture. And this is why you CANNOT answer John 17:3

The Father was in the son, yes, but the son was not the Father, and BIBLICALLY SPEAKING the Father is the one true God

Whether or not the Father through the spirit was on Christ in bodily form which leads many to say Christ is God Himself, YOU CANNOT jump to that according to the plain words of the Bible

So it comes down to one thing IMO

Will we stand on man and our natural understanding and philosophy? Or will we stand on the plain, emphatic words of the Bible and our Saviour?

I know which I will stand on for sure

BTW

The Holy Spirit WILL NOT contradict plain scripture. So if we have a belief that means we must ignore plain statements on this subject in the Bible, or reject them our belief CANNOT be guided by the Holy Spirit, for the Bible is Spirit breathed
 
Last edited:
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There are two ways of looking at salvation, and scripture provides us with both. One is the legal aspect, and the other is the family aspect. Both are true, but one must lead to the other, but I believe that one cannot be justified without the work of the Holy Spirit in their heart. Neither can one become righteous without this new birth. (Many misunderstand the righteousness that is of faith, when the example given is Abrahan believing what God said to him.)

Again, Paul writes this about us:

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him, through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death is no longer master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so, consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Much that Paul wrote is easy to misunderstand. Peter warned of this in his letter. The simple truth is that we are part of a plan, which has been God's plan from the very beginning. He wanted companions and children and worshipers that He could shower the riches of His love on, for eternity. To be any of these, we must be all of these. We are members of the kingdom of heaven, but we cannot even see the kingdom unless we are born of the Spirit. And the grace that Paul writes of is not some nebulous thing that cannot be explained; it is fellowship with God, which is what He has always desired from us. (God was angry with the children of Israel in the wilderness at the mountain, because they turned their backs on Him, hardening their hearts to not hear His voice.[They told Moses to not let God speak to them])

I know from the Spirit that there has been way too much emphasis put on the faith and the justification and the righteousness aspects of our salvation, to the detriment of the aspects which make us the children of God, the Holy Spirit's indwelling, and the voice of God, and entering His presence, even within the veil. Paul wrote that if we are lead by the Spirit, then we are God's children. But if not, then we are not.

When it all shakes out, I would like to think that I cared about my being God's child first and foremost, over the forensic aspect of salvation. For if we have the Spirit and hear His voice, then we know that we are His sheep, (His children,) and that He knows us. I just cannot run the risk of hearing Him say to me in that day, "I never knew you." I am afraid that many who believed to justification never knew God as Father, and never cried "Abba, Father!"

In His love,
vic
I do not think you are understanding what I am saying.

Salvation is justification.it is the fact that we are justified (declared innocent of all sin) that we are declared righteous in God's eyes.

It is the fact that we are justified (declared innocent) that sin (which caused death) no longer has any power. and that which made us "dead to God" has been removed, Which makes us "alive in him"

Yes there are two aspects. Our eternal position in Christ (declared innocent) thus all condemnation is removed, and we are seen as God as righteous, even though we ourselves are unrighteous.

Then there is our condition while we remain on earth, Which you spoke of.

The condition is useless and powerless without justification.

The father has to declare us innocent, before we can receive the gifts which proceed from the fact condemnation (death) is removed. Of which are the gifts you spoke of.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
0
I expect to see two peopel in heaven. Jeesus and the Father.
It is the figure of a man surrounded by a cloud of bright shining glory. The glory cloud is the Father. The man is Jesus. They can appear as one, or two.

you should read rev.4:2--4. it gives you a glimpse how God looks like.defenetely not just a cloud; we would also look like a cloud,because we are made in his image??
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
0
I've seen a whole lot of people attack the Trinity doctrine as if God will no longer present Himself like this.
They shame people for their love of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
This is the very nature of our one God.
God will not change this ever!

New Jerusalem
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

one must ask the question: why is the doctrine of the trinity added in the teachings?? i personally think it is because of frustration; because they cant put their finger on it. praise the most high God ,when he shut the door no one can open. and when he opens the door no one can shut.

''wakeup''.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
0
Actually quite the opposite. Without justification, the HS could never be in anyone. I do not see how you could come up to this conclusion.



We are made righteous, and newly born because of justification. If one is not justified, they are dead because of sin. Without forgiveness there can be no new birth



This still does not show how what I said was false.



If your not justified, Your not born again, and have no means of being born again. Your still dead in your sin.

Had a taste of that. Do not want it again. Thank God because of his son, I do not have to be like this again!

we seem to talk a lot of born again, but do not know what born again is. first we must understand what born again is. this is the lack of knowledge: study john1:3--6. very very carefully.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
we seem to talk a lot of born again, but do not know what born again is. first we must understand what born again is. this is the lack of knowledge: study john1:3--6. very very carefully.
Born again is not hard.

We are dead because of sin. When the penalty of sin is removed, we are "made alive" in Christ. or "born again" Jesus tells nicodemus in John 3 that this life which he came to give is eternal in nature. given to all who trust him.

This is born again.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
we must be born again in spirit and in truth. most have the spirit but still working on the truth. so the seed is planted but people have not emerged out of the womb yet. For Truth is only known in part until Jesus comes again.

so like infants we continue to grow and learn in Spirit, shedding our fleshy garments of sin and past bad habits with the help of the Holy Spirit who is our comforter and guide. Our emblicial cord to God.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
0
Born again is not hard.

We are dead because of sin. When the penalty of sin is removed, we are "made alive" in Christ. or "born again" Jesus tells nicodemus in John 3 that this life which he came to give is eternal in nature. given to all who trust him.

This is born again.

what does jesus mean when he said; if you are born of the flesh, you are flesh: if you are born of the spirit you are spirit, like the wind.

you must be born of water and of spirit to enter in the kingdom.

Jesus was born of water and blood: then he was born of the spirit; then he entered the kingdom of God in heaven.

this born of water has been wrongly interpreted as babtism: am i correct? how can they go so way out of track? Jesus wasnt speaking of babtism at all??? the whole conversation with nicodemus is not about babtism,he would have known what baptism is surely.

''wakeup''.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
It has been said that salvation is justification. It has been said that salvation is the forgiveness of our sins. I believe that salvation is neither of these, that these are the acts God give us to bring us to salvation, which is grace.

Everyone seems to have their own thoughts about just what grace is, but I know for a fact that what we believe grace to be, and what we believe it's effect on us is, has everything, literally everything to do with not only the salvation we have, but the life we live for and in God in this world. And this understanding of grace is directly tied to our understanding of the Godhead.

15 years ago, the Lord gave me a word about how His grace has been misrepresented by the church and her ministers. What really struck me hardest of all is that He called it "His Grace!" He said that grace has been given in a lie, that what is presented as grace is not grace at all, and that the sinner who has been mislead would have been saved and come to know Him if grace had been given in truth. That the sinner who could have drawn close to God had he known what grace meant was lost needlessly. That he suffered defeat in his life, needlessly. That those who were still sinners at heart were led to believe that they were saved, that they had found grace, when they had not.

Jesus came to reconcile us back to God, and this coming back to God is grace. How is it written? We love God because He first loved us. But how do we know that He loves us? Because it is written down in the bible? We know that God's love is not found written down in words on a page. How did we know that our husband or wife, or our parents, or anyone who has ever loved us, how did we know that they in fact did love us? They chose to be with us and near us and to share in our lives with love that was tangible, that we could know. And God is love.

Have you experienced God's love? Then you know grace, for grace is sharing in the life of God, as He gives us of His life and glory to share in our lives. And He loves us so much that even giving Jesus for us, so that we could be born as His children after the image of Jesus, was not too high a price to pay.

Ask Him about grace, to draw close to you, to draw you close to Him. That is where our life is.

In Christ,
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
VW this is how we know we are children of God: He corrects us, gives a bath and tells us what we did wrong and need to do to grow. For correction and guidance by our Heavenly Father is what True love is about. He still loves us if we mess up but we get corrected and made perfect through confession, repentance and forgiveness.

Grace is GIVEN by God. Faith is a fruit where we SPEAK of Grace. We are not Justified until we receive the Holy Spirit and OBEY God's commands, then the Holy Spirit that resides in us justifies us. Salvation occurs when the seed of grace is planted unless the person rejects the seed/Word/Jesus, see sower with 4 different types of ground or they deny the Holy Spirit and call another sibling Demon possessed when they are really Spirit filled.


Hebrews 12
“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
Dearest sister AnandaHya,

That is not the only way we know His love. Not even by a long shot. God is not always seeking to discipline us, but when we need it for our own good, and then He is not disciplining us as did our earthly fathers, but as only He can do.

I have known the love of God as light which colored the air where I was. I have known the love of God as tears which fell on my face as I looked upon the ruin of the church. I have known the love of God that makes me sink into nothingness as He becomes everything and anything that is or ever will be.

Yes, there is discipline, but just a few paragraphs before this we find an invitation from God to enter into the holy place within the veil, through the body and the blood of Jesus. The Holy Spirit chastises with such gentleness and so softly and quietly, that we must be actively listening to even hear Him. But when we enter into the holy place within the veil, we will find the Holy God, on His throne, who will not look upon sin. And in the light of His glory, we will see ourselves truly as we are. We will die to the old creatures we are in this world. But we will find love, such as we have never known love before.

When I was delivered from the deception of false grace, I was destroyed in all my pride and knowledge and understanding. I was shown the fact of my dead life, completely worthless and useless and ugly. I became as nothing. And then I was laid even lower, because after being forgiven and joined to Christ Jesus in His crucifixion, I was shown that I would go back to what I had just been delivered from if God did not keep me free of it, if He did not keep me crucified to the old man. And I knew it for true, I still know it for the truth about me, a true if devastating judgment. I have never been more ashamed, more dejected, more rejected and despised, in my own eyes.

But then, something which I will never forget, not even into eternity, happened, that has made more of an impression on me than any other thing that God has done. He loved me, and this love was and is without limit or cost or demand in any way. He just loved me, made me feel His love, know His love, right then at the lowest point of my miserable life. Freely. I came alive in that love.

God is love. I am seeking to be perfected in love. Everything else can be left behind, but if I can become perfect in His love, I will never have any fear, ever. I will never look to myself, to see if I am in His will, to see if I am right or wrong, because if I am in His love, I am pleasing in His sight. This I know in the very depths of my spirit, and His Spirit testifies with my Spirit to the truth of this.

I understand what you are saying, but I can not go back to those basics, because I must press on to maturity in Christ, which is knowing the Father, Him who is from the beginning. And to know Him, I must seek always to become perfected in His love.

I think now you will know why I was called after John.