Two things God wants for you.

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JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
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#21
"not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God" ... Which means it's not the water that is doing the work. It is the submission (in faith) to what God has ordained.

Just like in the old testament it was never the blood of bulls and goats that was doing the work. It was the faith and willing submission to God that connected them to what those actions were about.

Also, it wasn't the physical removal of a piece of flesh (circumcision) that suddently made them worthy... It was submission to that God-established act (by faith) that brought them into the covenant.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
what was the requirement of circumcision in the Old Testament?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
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#22
There is a significant group of Christians who either believe in:
  1. the necessity of water baptism to get saved, or
  2. the necessity immediately after you are saved, otherwise you may not be saved since you are disobeying a direct commandment from the risen Lord, which to me amounts to pretty much the same as the first belief.
Verses like Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 feature heavily in both beliefs.

The dispensationalist view towards water baptism is clear: Jesus was on Earth to fulfill the promise of a kingdom to the Jews, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:17).

Under that Kingdom, all Jews are supposed to accept Jesus as their King, and then be priests that will spread the message of the King to every nation.

This was prophesied in many OT prophets, some examples would be

Zechariah 8 explains

3 “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.’

Later on, in the chapter in Zechariah 8:20-23 New Living Translation (NLT)

20 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: People from nations and cities around the world will travel to Jerusalem. 21 The people of one city will say to the people of another, ‘Come with us to Jerusalem to ask the Lord to bless us. Let’s worship the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. I’m determined to go.’ 22 Many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord of Heaven’s Armies and to ask for his blessing. 23 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”

A similar prophecy was given in Micah Chapter 4 (NLT)
In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.

Finally, the same prophecy was given in the book of Isaiah chapter 2:2

In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.

So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus as the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.

So in order for Jews to fulfill the role of priests, all of them must be water baptized. This was not a requirement before John and Jesus came on Earth, but because both of them came in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, water baptism became required as part of the salvation process.
Mark 16:16, He that "believeth" and is baptized shall be "saved" (delivered, but not eternally because they are already eternally secure). The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) cannot believe in the things of the Spirit until he has been born again. These spoken about in Mark 16:16 would have to be already born again of the Holy Spirit. Those in Acts 2:38 were also those who were already born again of the Spirit. The natural man's stony heart can not be pricked (verse 37) to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law. The scriptures will never harmonize unless you first understand the difference in eternal deliverance and timely deliverance.
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
810
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#23
Hi Kelby, the Bible makes it clear that no OT saint was ever saved by the sacrificed blood of bulls and goats (as you just said). Since we know that's true, what is it then that atones for their sins and satisfies the wrath of the Father against them (because another thing that the Bible makes clear is that, "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" .. Hebrews 9:22; 10:4?

Thanks!

~Deut
Indeed, without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Baptism would be of no value without Jesus shedding his blood. The cross (+burial and resurrection) is what JESUS needed to do to make it active. Being baptized is what WE need to do if we want to be joined to that activity and receive the benefits of it... as Romans 6:3-5 is saying:

Romans 6:3-5 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

If we refuse to be planted in the likeness of his death, we also give up the right to be in the likeness of his resurrection. That's why the enemy tries so hard to turn people away from baptism. If people understand that being baptized correctly gives us the right to be in the likeness of his (Jesus') resurrection, more people would make it into the kingdom of God.

So Satan suggests it is something man-made. He suggests it serves some less important purpose. He suggests it is not for remission of sins (which the bible says it is), etc, etc.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
810
326
63
#24
Could you clarify what you mean by (washing away)I wasn’t sure why (washing away) was put In parenthesis.Some say that man should physically wash as a sign to the world and good conscience to GOD that he has changed some say that man HAS to physically wash/baptize before he can have his sins forgiven?🙂
I put "washing away" in parenthesis as a reminder of what remission means. I also use parenthesis to designate an offshoot from the main point of a sentence, or to clarify a specific point within the sentence.

As for clarifying what I mean by "washing away" I mean that we go down into the water with our sins...and we come up without them. Much like Jesus went down into death with the sins of the world on him...and came up out of death without those sins.

As for how that works...Beats me. I just know that God established baptism for that purpose, and we are to submit to it if we'd like to be in the likeness of his resurrection.

I hope that is a little clearer...even if at this time you may believe differently.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
810
326
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#25
Before we go too much further discussing baptism (I really appreciate the comments I've read so far...up to #18 ) I want to point out that baptism is only 1 of TWO things God wants us to have.

So at some point we'll probably move towards talking about what it means to actually receive the Holy Ghost.. assuming you feel the Holy Ghost is important enough that we should seek to know the truth about it and not just rely on what others have told us, just in case they are blind leaders of the blind.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
810
326
63
#26
There is a significant group of Christians who either believe in:
  1. the necessity of water baptism to get saved, or
  2. the necessity immediately after you are saved, otherwise you may not be saved since you are disobeying a direct commandment from the risen Lord, which to me amounts to pretty much the same as the first belief.
Verses like Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 feature heavily in both beliefs.

The dispensationalist view towards water baptism is clear: Jesus was on Earth to fulfill the promise of a kingdom to the Jews, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:17).

Under that Kingdom, all Jews are supposed to accept Jesus as their King, and then be priests that will spread the message of the King to every nation.

This was prophesied in many OT prophets, some examples would be

Zechariah 8 explains

3 “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.’

Later on, in the chapter in Zechariah 8:20-23 New Living Translation (NLT)

20 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: People from nations and cities around the world will travel to Jerusalem. 21 The people of one city will say to the people of another, ‘Come with us to Jerusalem to ask the Lord to bless us. Let’s worship the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. I’m determined to go.’ 22 Many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord of Heaven’s Armies and to ask for his blessing. 23 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”

A similar prophecy was given in Micah Chapter 4 (NLT)
In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.

Finally, the same prophecy was given in the book of Isaiah chapter 2:2

In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.

So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus as the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.

So in order for Jews to fulfill the role of priests, all of them must be water baptized. This was not a requirement before John and Jesus came on Earth, but because both of them came in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, water baptism became required as part of the salvation process.
I like your post with only a few comments.

It seems important to point out that Jerusalem and Zion and other things mentioned in the old testament may be referring to the SPIRITUAL items rather than the physical. For example, I don't think God meant that his Mount Zion would become taller than Mount Everest before these things could be fulfilled. I'm remembering that the scribes and Pharisees could quote the prophecies foretelling Jesus the messiah, but they were looking too much fleshly and failed to recognize when Jesus was fulfilling those same prophecies right in front of them.

The Jews indeed WERE saved before spreading that blessing to the Gentiles. And indeed, once they'd received it, those from all nations and tongues began to be drawn towards this spiritual mountain of the Lord. One only needs to read Acts chapter 2 to see this begin to happen. And truly the NT salvation of the Lord was given to the Jews first (the original disciples of Jesus) and these Jewish disciples were sent out into all the world as kings and priests to share this gospel to the Gentiles also.


This last paragraph is a change of pace, but although I agree in the necessity of baptism, I don't see how your earlier paragraph's showed a necessity for water baptism to be brought in at that time. Nonetheless....

Love in Jesus,
Kelby :)
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
810
326
63
#27
Those that Jesus died for, their sins were washed as white as snow by Jesus's death on the cross. Baptism is a commandment he tells us to do to signify that we understand his death, burial and resurrection, the same commandment he gave us to take the sacraments and wash each others feet in helping us to remember him. There is a deliverance in being baptized but it is not eternal.
Here are a few challenge questions perhaps to cause you to question the validity of some of the doctrines you currently believe:

1. Did not Jesus die for ALL? And if their sins were washed as white as snow simply by his death on the cross, what need is there for belief or repentance OR baptism?

I contest that belief, repentance and baptism are the avenues by which we gain access to what he did on the cross. Without them, we remain separated from those things he did for us.

2. Do you really believe that Peter would have been eternally OK if he remained steadfast in his refusal to allow Jesus to wash his feet?

Remember, Jesus said regarding this action "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me". And if it was so important that even Peter would be cut off from Jesus if he didn't submit to it, how do you now refer to these things as simply "helping us to remember" instead of seeking out WHY they were so important?

John 13:8 KJV
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me
.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
810
326
63
#28
what was the requirement of circumcision in the Old Testament?
Hi JamOn,

Circumcision is the removal of excess skin around the end of a male's sexual organ. If you're wanting more detail than that, I would refer you to a Google or Wikipedia search. As for the details of how, when, who, etc...I'd refer you to reading the first several books of the Old Testament.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
1,487
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#29
Indeed, without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Baptism would be of no value without Jesus shedding his blood. The cross (+burial and resurrection) is what JESUS needed to do to make it active. Being baptized is what WE need to do if we want to be joined to that activity and receive the benefits of it... as Romans 6:3-5 is saying:

Romans 6:3-5 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


If we refuse to be planted in the likeness of his death, we also give up the right to be in the likeness of his resurrection. That's why the enemy tries so hard to turn people away from baptism. If people understand that being baptized correctly gives us the right to be in the likeness of his (Jesus') resurrection, more people would make it into the kingdom of God.

So Satan suggests it is something man-made. He suggests it serves some less important purpose. He suggests it is not for remission of sins (which the bible says it is), etc, etc.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Hello again Kelby, since the blood of bulls and goats saved* no one in OT times, 1. what was the purpose of the sacrifices and 2. what is it then that actually does atone for their sins (and satisfies the wrath of the Father against them)?

*(my question about OT saints that you replied to above did not concern Christian water baptism for obvious reasons).

Thanks :)

~Deut
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
3,501
1,402
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#30
Hi JamOn,

Circumcision is the removal of excess skin around the end of a male's sexual organ. If you're wanting more detail than that, I would refer you to a Google or Wikipedia search. As for the details of how, when, who, etc...I'd refer you to reading the first several books of the Old Testament.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
sure thing I’ve checked out what the OT says the reason for circumcising and appears to be this.

here’s what I’ve read

Gen 17
12Generation after generation, every male must be circumcised when he is eight days old, including those born in your household and those purchased from a foreigner—even those who are not your offspring. 13Whether they are born in your household or purchased, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.

14But if any male is not circumcised, he will be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”


you mentioned this below in one of your post maybe I am misreading what your saying as it was the submission that brought them into covenant or maybe I’m misreading that after eight days the circumcised male child was brought into the covenant by the circumcise.
.
.
Also, it wasn't the physical removal of a piece of flesh (circumcision) that suddently made them worthy... It was submission to that God-established act (by faith) that brought them into the covenant.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,089
566
113
#31
I like your post with only a few comments.

It seems important to point out that Jerusalem and Zion and other things mentioned in the old testament may be referring to the SPIRITUAL items rather than the physical. For example, I don't think God meant that his Mount Zion would become taller than Mount Everest before these things could be fulfilled. I'm remembering that the scribes and Pharisees could quote the prophecies foretelling Jesus the messiah, but they were looking too much fleshly and failed to recognize when Jesus was fulfilling those same prophecies right in front of them.

The Jews indeed WERE saved before spreading that blessing to the Gentiles. And indeed, once they'd received it, those from all nations and tongues began to be drawn towards this spiritual mountain of the Lord. One only needs to read Acts chapter 2 to see this begin to happen. And truly the NT salvation of the Lord was given to the Jews first (the original disciples of Jesus) and these Jewish disciples were sent out into all the world as kings and priests to share this gospel to the Gentiles also.


This last paragraph is a change of pace, but although I agree in the necessity of baptism, I don't see how your earlier paragraph's showed a necessity for water baptism to be brought in at that time. Nonetheless....

Love in Jesus,
Kelby :)
During the 1000 years millennial reign of Jesus, after he return to earth again, you don’t think he will be ruling from Jerusalem in a physical kingdom, sitting on David’s throne?

It could have happened way earlier, before we were born, if the events in acts 7 turned out differently.

The sad thing was, the Jewish leaders at the Sanhedrin rejected their king there and then. We gentiles benefited from their rejection though as Paul states in romans 11:11
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,531
407
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#32
Here are a few challenge questions perhaps to cause you to question the validity of some of the doctrines you currently believe:

1. Did not Jesus die for ALL? And if their sins were washed as white as snow simply by his death on the cross, what need is there for belief or repentance OR baptism?

I contest that belief, repentance and baptism are the avenues by which we gain access to what he did on the cross. Without them, we remain separated from those things he did for us.

2. Do you really believe that Peter would have been eternally OK if he remained steadfast in his refusal to allow Jesus to wash his feet?

Remember, Jesus said regarding this action "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me". And if it was so important that even Peter would be cut off from Jesus if he didn't submit to it, how do you now refer to these things as simply "helping us to remember" instead of seeking out WHY they were so important?

John 13:8 KJV
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me
.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
First, let me ask you a question. In the church you attend, do they wash each others feet in communion? They do in the church that I attend. Your number one question; No Jesus did not die for all mankind. John 6:38 makes that plainly clear that Jesus died only for those that God gave him, and it was not all mankind. because Jesus said that he would not lose any that he died for, but raise them all up at the last day. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern the things of the Spirit until he has been regenerated (Eph 2), therefore, he will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he thinks is foolishness. If he ever hears the word preached about spiritual things, he will not understand them. Only God's sheep (those that have been born again) can hear and understand the preached word. Every commandment God gives us is given as instructions for born again children of God telling them how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. There are scriptures in the bible telling born again children how they were saved, but I don't find a commandment of God telling them to get saved eternally. If you have one, let me know book, chapter and verse, and I will try to explain it to you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,315
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#33
It could have happened way earlier, before we were born, if the events in acts 7 turned out differently.

The sad thing was, the Jewish leaders at the Sanhedrin rejected their king there and then. We gentiles benefited from their rejection though as Paul states in romans 11:11
neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.


Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.
(Acts 1:16-17)
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
(Acts 2:23-24)
Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
(Acts 3:17-18)
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,089
566
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#34
neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.


Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.
(Acts 1:16-17)
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
(Acts 2:23-24)
Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
(Acts 3:17-18)
You are quoting the wrong verses since Peter was still appealing to the Jews to accept their Messiah. The offer of the kingdom was still valid in Acts 3.

A more suitable passage would be Romans 9.

But even so, I would rather not think like a Calvinist here. The leaders had a legitimate choice to make in Acts 7, just like Adam and Eve had in the Garden.

Of course, once they made that choice, we can look back and say God knew they would have made that choice from the beginning of time. It does not mean he caused that choice though.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,315
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#35
You are quoting the wrong verses since Peter was still appealing to the Jews to accept their Messiah. The offer of the kingdom was still valid in Acts 3.

A more suitable passage would be Romans 9.

But even so, I would rather not think like a Calvinist here. The leaders had a legitimate choice to make in Acts 7, just like Adam and Eve had in the Garden.

Of course, once they made that choice, we can look back and say God knew they would have made that choice from the beginning of time. It does not mean he caused that choice though.
i don't think you understand what these verses are saying or why i cited them.

you said "it could have happened" if only .. . . .
i said:


neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.

and i showed from the beginning of Acts the apostles understood - the scripture makes clear - that there was no accident. there was no failure. there was God's purpose, having been long ago foretold, being fulfilled.

The Son of Man must suffer many things,
and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be killed, and be raised the third day!
(Luke 9:22)
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,089
566
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#36
i don't think you understand what these verses are saying or why i cited them.

you said "it could have happened" if only .. . . .
i said:


neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.

and i showed from the beginning of Acts the apostles understood - the scripture makes clear - that there was no accident. there was no failure. there was God's purpose, having been long ago foretold, being fulfilled.

The Son of Man must suffer many things,
and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be killed, and be raised the third day!
(Luke 9:22)
You have a habit of replying to my discussion with another, without even knowing what the discussion topic was about.

The verses you refer to in Acts talks about the Crucifixion of Christ.

I am talking about Acts 7, where the Jewish nation, represented by the Sanhedrin, rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah and King for the final time, thus God caused all Israel to be blinded for a temporary time, which is still in force today.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,315
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#37
You have a habit of replying to my discussion with another, without even knowing what the discussion topic was about.

The verses you refer to in Acts talks about the Crucifixion of Christ.

I am talking about Acts 7, where the Jewish nation, represented by the Sanhedrin, rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah and King for the final time, thus God caused all Israel to be blinded for a temporary time, which is still in force today.

i don't think you understand what these verses are saying, how they are related to the rejection of God as their king, or why i cited them.

you said "it could have happened" if only .. . . .
i said:

neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.

and i showed from the beginning of Acts the apostles understood - the scripture makes clear - that there was no accident. there was no failure. there was God's purpose, having been long ago foretold, being fulfilled.

they have rejected Me from being king over them.
(1 Samuel 8:7)
The Son of Man must suffer many things,
and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be killed, and be raised the third day!
(Luke 9:22)
by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God
(Acts 2:23)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,315
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#38
I am talking about Acts 7, where the Jewish nation, represented by the Sanhedrin, rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah and King for the final time, thus God caused all Israel to be blinded for a temporary time, which is still in force today.

try Isaiah 6:9 and Mark 4:12
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,089
566
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#39
i don't think you understand what these verses are saying, how they are related to the rejection of God as their king, or why i cited them.

you said "it could have happened" if only .. . . .
i said:

neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.

and i showed from the beginning of Acts the apostles understood - the scripture makes clear - that there was no accident. there was no failure. there was God's purpose, having been long ago foretold, being fulfilled.

they have rejected Me from being king over them.
(1 Samuel 8:7)
The Son of Man must suffer many things,
and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be killed, and be raised the third day!
(Luke 9:22)
by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God
(Acts 2:23)
You are still being Calvinistic about this without admitting it.

Why did Jesus bother to stand up in acts 7:55, if the Sanhedrin did not legitimately have the free choice to decide whether or not to accept Stephen preaching?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#40
try Isaiah 6:9 and Mark 4:12
add to it Isaiah 35:5, 42:18-19, & 43:8.
read Jeremiah 5:21 and Ezekiel 12:2, and then Matthew 13:13.
God didn't speak before the Sanhedrin - but don't you remember what He confided to the Gentile Pilate? what He hid from Israel? what was not revealed by flesh and blood?