It's a pretty weak dodge for you to not answer Studier's and pretend to be substituting a better one that presupposes your own position to be true. You have a history of avoiding candidly answering questions. I'm still waiting for your personal explanation of the negative inference fallacy you deny resorting to.
Understanding God’s election
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It says ":Everything (pan: neuter singular) the Father gives Me will come to Me..."
It's unreasonable to claim that "pan" refers only to believers and not to the entire universe, including all believers and all unbelievers, and also the sum of the circumstances that came Jesus' way during His lifetime on earth, which is what pan (everything) would semantically include. It seems you are massaging and limiting the text to make it fit into your preconceptions.
It's unreasonable to claim that "pan" refers only to believers and not to the entire universe, including all believers and all unbelievers, and also the sum of the circumstances that came Jesus' way during His lifetime on earth, which is what pan (everything) would semantically include. It seems you are massaging and limiting the text to make it fit into your preconceptions.
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I think that any man drawn by the Father will definitely be raised on the last day, since "I will raise Him up" is future indicative tense. But I also believe all men will be raised up at the last day: the righteous at the beginning of the last 1000 years, and the condemned at the end of the last 1000 years - a day with the Lord being as 1000 years. And the universe (All things) will also be destroyed and raised up/recreated, at the end of the last 1000 years.
The reason it required the Father to draw men to Jesus was IMO because Jesus, without the Father working through Him to say and do remarkable things, was without form of comeliness that anyone would desire Him. It was the controversial deeds and words of Jesus fiven Him by the Father that attracted people's attention and drew them to come and watch and listen more attentively to Him.
I think this drawing process changed after the death and resurrection of Messiah, and Jesus began to draw people to Himself by working miracles and speaking through His church. "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to Myself."
The reason it required the Father to draw men to Jesus was IMO because Jesus, without the Father working through Him to say and do remarkable things, was without form of comeliness that anyone would desire Him. It was the controversial deeds and words of Jesus fiven Him by the Father that attracted people's attention and drew them to come and watch and listen more attentively to Him.
I think this drawing process changed after the death and resurrection of Messiah, and Jesus began to draw people to Himself by working miracles and speaking through His church. "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to Myself."
@GWH
What about Seth, whose image was he according to Gen 5:1-3
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
What about Seth, whose image was he according to Gen 5:1-3
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
Unsaved, natural man -those not His children - cannot know the things of the Spirit and therefore cannot be taught in order to become His children. Only those whom God had adopted as His children, can learn in order to come to Jesus. This is made clear in the following verses - that unsaved man cannot know the things of God - the spiritual things of God - unless they are of those whom God had chosen to salvation. This works in conjunction with Jhn 6:45
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
At this point, I think we've pretty much beaten this subject to death.
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
At this point, I think we've pretty much beaten this subject to death.
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Thanks for this. I'll have to think through it. You may have gathered that I'm rethinking some of my previous understandings. The Come + Faith issue being my main rethinking. I seem to recall you taking this view some time ago and my not being able to accept it then.
Apart from getting into specific eschatology, I think we agree on the resurrection of all men, so I do see that point. I also have John12 in the back of my mind while working through J5-6 again and attempting to both stay in the moment of those chapters and get the general principles still applicable (which I think you and @Cameron143 are discussing).
I think my question I'd have to think through (I have some distractions this a.m.) is related to what was going on at that time in regard to the drawing by the Father (which for one thing is different post resurrection in that Jesus is doing the drawing) and the raising. It may be a simple grasp, but I'm not focused at the moment. But the gist is that Jesus' ministry was to Israel, so was all Israel being drawn by the Father to come to Jesus? As I said earlier, we can see at least 4 groups He's dealing with in J5-6 and we can see as I recall 4 different responses. He also sent disciples out to surrounding regions. So, if all were drawn/enabled then all were given opportunity to come + believe and the raising will deal with believers and unbelievers who were all drawn by God the Father and specific to Jesus' time on earth.
Hope this makes sense. If not, then I'll try to do better later.
Apart from getting into specific eschatology, I think we agree on the resurrection of all men, so I do see that point. I also have John12 in the back of my mind while working through J5-6 again and attempting to both stay in the moment of those chapters and get the general principles still applicable (which I think you and @Cameron143 are discussing).
I think my question I'd have to think through (I have some distractions this a.m.) is related to what was going on at that time in regard to the drawing by the Father (which for one thing is different post resurrection in that Jesus is doing the drawing) and the raising. It may be a simple grasp, but I'm not focused at the moment. But the gist is that Jesus' ministry was to Israel, so was all Israel being drawn by the Father to come to Jesus? As I said earlier, we can see at least 4 groups He's dealing with in J5-6 and we can see as I recall 4 different responses. He also sent disciples out to surrounding regions. So, if all were drawn/enabled then all were given opportunity to come + believe and the raising will deal with believers and unbelievers who were all drawn by God the Father and specific to Jesus' time on earth.
Hope this makes sense. If not, then I'll try to do better later.
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As I see the arguments develop, there seems to be 2 basic groups. One faction believes that salvation results from the actions of God which illicit responses that evidence those actions have occurred. Conversely, the other faction believes God has taken actions to reveal Himself, but salvation is dependent upon the responses of the individual to the revelation of God.
I believe the first is true for a number of reasons. First, it is the only explanation that allows the whole process to be of grace. Second, it offers the best explanation of why someone opposed to God would alter that position. And third, because salvation is, in essence, a spiritual transaction that transforms an individual, it is a work only God can do.
I believe the first is true for a number of reasons. First, it is the only explanation that allows the whole process to be of grace. Second, it offers the best explanation of why someone opposed to God would alter that position. And third, because salvation is, in essence, a spiritual transaction that transforms an individual, it is a work only God can do.
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The better question would be: Since so many in the world are unwilling to believe (like the Pharisees in John 5), could this be the reason God, evidently, saw the need to give and draw men to Christ, since all that he gives will come to his Son and his Son will none and he promised to raise them up [to life] on the last day? After all, Jn 6:37 does say in part that "All the Father gives to me WILL come to me..."
Seems to me that Jn 5:40 and 6:37 are great companion verses that at once are contrasting, yet at the same time are paradoxically complementary. Whaddya think?
Now just remember something please, you were the one who brought John 5 into the Bread of Life of Discourse of the next chapter. Since you opened that door, don't be upset with me down the road if I should use any verse from chapter 5 to make and support any argument I make.
Have a good evening, sir....
Seems to me that Jn 5:40 and 6:37 are great companion verses that at once are contrasting, yet at the same time are paradoxically complementary. Whaddya think?
Now just remember something please, you were the one who brought John 5 into the Bread of Life of Discourse of the next chapter. Since you opened that door, don't be upset with me down the road if I should use any verse from chapter 5 to make and support any argument I make.
Have a good evening, sir....
I answered your post about the negative inference fallacy yesterday. I asked you to provide the specific text in John 6 to which you apply this fallacy.
And Studier's question to me did not presuppose that his own position is true?
And talking about questions: I asked you last night: Who was Isaiah's original audience in Isa 54?
And Studier's question to me did not presuppose that his own position is true?
And talking about questions: I asked you last night: Who was Isaiah's original audience in Isa 54?
And a third faction that believes God acting unilaterally makes Him an unjust tyrant/monster kidnapping people against their "free will", forcing people to act one way or another and unfair to reveal Himself in any way differently to one person than another. This faction grumbles about the sovereignty of God and has little to no understanding of the natural man vs the spiritual man.
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That sounds very new age-y. Our muscle control works through our somatic nervous system which is highly complex, sending command signals from the brain to the muscles to initiate movement, allowing us to consciously control certan body actions, and also delivering information from our senses to our brain. However, many actions are not voluntary. Your autonomic nervous system works without you thinking about it, running behind-the-scenes processes that keep you alive. Both are subdivisions of the peripheral nervous system. Saying you are controlling molecular structures like God does is pretty iffy.