HSfilled lady - I have addressed all the Biblical support in many posts in another thread, which people are trying to superseded with this one. I am beginning to think that not one person has read them.
I discussed the issue of authority, or authentein in post #7 in
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...1-tim-2-12-speaking-woman-not-teach-have.html
So for those who missed it.
"Well, this is the kind of doctrinal error that comes out of using English as the basis for your beliefs.
The word in 1 Tim. 2 translated as "authority" in some versions, is a called a hapax legomen.
That means it only occurs ONCE in the whole Bible. So your other comparisons are not valid.
The word is "authentein" in Greek - αύθενείν. Some translators put it as
"To act on one's authority, to exercise authority, to have mastery, to be dominating."
But all these definitions come from non-Biblical sources and there is nothing to compare in the Bible to see how Paul is using the word.
Contemporaneous sources (writings that were written as the same time as the Bible) also say this word could be "murderer, ruler or master." In fact, it is probably actually a vulgar form of another word, autodikein (to take justice into one's own hand.).
Really, you have to look at the context in which 1 Timothy was written. Paul was writing to Timothy who was in Ephesus. Now Paul had already had big problems with the silversmiths in Ephesus, in Acts 19. Because Artemis, a fertility goddess was who they worshiped, and the silversmiths were making big money off the tourist statues and paraphernalia they were hawking, and they did NOT want to see Jesus and the unseen God taking over.
The priestesses of Artemis were pretty wicked women, and there was a cult of them who "ruled over men", subjected them to humiliation and slavery and assigned them female tasks." Now we do not know if it was these women, but their worship practices were pretty undignified, including temple prostitution. Worship was noisy and frenzied.
It is likely some of these women either became Christians, or more likely tried to infiltrate the church, and carried their worship into the services. I don't think that kind of thing should be tolerated by women or men.
I think many scholars would probably lean to "domineering" as the way to translate this verse.
It would be strange to think that Paul, who appointed Phoebe as a deacon, and Junia as an apostle, and said,
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
would suddenly start making statements that should apply to the church for all time, which were totally contrary to his statements in other books.
So my thought, is read in context, this verse is instructing Timothy not to let the ex-priestesses dominate and take over the church.
If you want to check this out further, I suggest the book "I Suffer Not a Woman" by Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger. It gets very deeply into the Ephesus culture AND the Greek.
However, I do like you basis premises that women should be allowed to preach. Just back it up a bit with the Greek and you will be really contributing to the future, (I hope!) of the church."
And post # 19 in the same thread.
"Cobus, Junia was a WOMAN. Here is a link to the latest research on both the gender and whether she was an apostle or not.
Junia, A Female Apostle
Translation bias is a big issue, and even John Piper and Wayne Grudem, who are complementarians can find no cases of the name Junia being a man in all concurrent and ancient Greek writings or in the Bible because it is a hapax logemen.
As for Phoebe (please spell it correctly) being a servant, I say Amen! to that. Because ALL the deacons were servants. The word in Greek is dikonos διάκονος, which means, according to Strong's #1249:
servant/attendant/teacher/pastor/deacon/deaconness/minister/servant.
It is the same word, used in 1 Tim 3:10, 13; Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim 3:8, 12.
All these verses the word is translated as "deacon" according to Strong's.
This is a blatant example of translational bias. If Paul had wanted to say "servant" he would have used the word "doulos" or slave/servant. This word is used in other places. But when referring to the office of DEACON, Paul always used diakonos. But since King James and many translators following believed women could not be in leadership, nor be deacons, they only used the word "servant" once - and that is in the case of Phoebe, a woman. Pure and simply a bad translation. If it is deacon in all the other places it should be deacon in the case of Phoebe.
And the plural form of diakonos in 1 Tim 3:8-11 could likely be deaconness, simply because the plural of the word in Greek, means both women and men.
Nor is anyone here addressing the OP's original topic, which was the use of the word "authority" in 1 Tim 2:11-12, which is actually authentein in Greek, and does NOT mean authority, but rather "domineering". Which no Christian should be.
Cobo you are either Southern Baptist or Catholic, and if SBC, then we must learn from the sad "twisted" example of Texas. Such horrid things going on in my former denomination, that many have left that denomination, or formed their own state conventions. The take over of the SBC was engineered and planned and documented. The result is that women who were experts, and more qualified than men have been fired, men who did not agree with the extreme right wing stance of the Paige Patterson and his henchmen have been forced to sign documents they did not agree with, if they were close to retirement, or leave and form new Seminaries.
How sad that mis-translations of the Bible have resulted in women being relegated to being barefoot and pregnant, instead of being able to be part of the movement to spread the gospel. Dating back to SBC missionary Lottie Moon in the 18th century, who fought to be allowed God's call to China, and led thousands to the Lord, she was not allowed to preach to men in that country.
The result was the men would stand outside and listen and many were converted. One man became an evangelist as a result of Lottie Moon's ministry, and led 10,000 people to the Lord.
Thinking strictly from a numbers point of view. If God wants the gospel to go forth into all the word, (Matt. 28:18-20), then why would he exclude over 50% of the population of the world from being able to preach and teach the word of God.
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore andmake disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" Matt. 28:18-20
"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsand teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ," Eph. 4:11-12
I am not seeing any qualifications for gender in either scripture.
Saying women cannot be in authority is an example of misogyny at its worst. No wonder the spread of the gospel has been slowed down in the last century, and North America is not a leader in missions anymore, but instead are paying the price for wrong doctrine, and wrong use of the Biblical text."
And Post #20
Just an addendum for those who don't read links. This is part of the text of my link, early in my last post.
"Junia was a female apostle. This is the preferred view. The evidence is authoritative, compelling, diverse, and objective. Junia has been demonstrated to be a woman based on the testimony of early manuscripts, recorded statements of various church leaders through the 12th century, and research performed by many other scholars attesting to the name Junia or Julia existing in ancient times.The evidence for a male reading was based on later manuscripts subject to the interpretations of scribes who thoughtIounian was a male and to the statement by one early church leader who was also mistaken as to the correct gender of Prisca. Computer-generated searches could find no example of a male Junias in ancient times nor is there any evidence proving that Junias was ever a contracted form of a longer name.
Junia and Andronicus were apostles. Numerous contemporary and past scholarship, lexical definitions, grammatical construction, and scriptural examples all provide the strongest support that episemoi en toisapostolois, naturally meant they were "outstanding among the apostles," just as Chrysostom so elegantly declared."
Bait and switch is NOT going to work with me, and I thank you for your interest! Or pretending to be stupid, and that you cannot compete with my training. Perhaps people should ask God and he will show you the material that is out there for the egalitarian view on women teaching in the church.
I have a list of scholarly books and can cite them, if anyone needs to check more sources.
