Valley of Decision.... It's time to make a choice!

[notuptome]

If you chose to save yourself, you didn't need salvation. Christ saved those who are lost.

Parroting another nontruth. I chose to receive Christ as my Savior because it was revealed to me that I could not save myself. Gods word made clear that there were no works I could do, no acts of attrition I could render that would efface my sin.

Gods word by the Holy Spirit made clear the weight of sin I bore. I have felt the heavy conviction of sin. I have seen the perfect righteousness of Christ and how far short of it I fall. I have seen the awful penalty that sin carries.

I did not save myself but the mercy of God offer to me salvation by grace which I accepted by faith in the Savior Shrist.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

But free will is not a New Covenant biblical concept. It becomes a false doctrine when people teach it as biblical truth.

Adam clearly demonstrated his will in the garden when he chose to follow Eve and partake of the forbidden fruit. Eve was deceived but Adam made a conscious choice. Men choose to sin everyday. Men have the ability to choose Christ or choose to reject Christ and continue in their self will.

It is not Gods will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Men refuse to repent by choice not by nature.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

He was only partly right ... has it occurred to you how much if he was wrong (which he was mostly) how he has maligned the nature of God.

There is no way around the fact that if God selects those He wants leaving others no choice...then he is a morally ambiguous God.

And Calvin as clever as he was did not follow his own dogma to is moral logical conclusion......
which is not good.

As well you you are listening to a man whose lens was completely shaped by St Augustine and Augustine did not get much right either having been influenced by the Roman church which definitely did not get much right.

If God whose name is Jealous is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires .How would that make Him a morally ambiguous God?

 

[Dave-L]

Parroting another nontruth. I chose to receive Christ as my Savior because it was revealed to me that I could not save myself. Gods word made clear that there were no works I could do, no acts of attrition I could render that would efface my sin.

Gods word by the Holy Spirit made clear the weight of sin I bore. I have felt the heavy conviction of sin. I have seen the perfect righteousness of Christ and how far short of it I fall. I have seen the awful penalty that sin carries.

I did not save myself but the mercy of God offer to me salvation by grace which I accepted by faith in the Savior Shrist.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Where you miss it, is your choice was a misguided response to Christ giving you the new birth. In the NT, believers were baptized in place of today's going forward and choosing to believe. You must already believe (have salvation according to Christ) or you would never "choose" to believe.

 

[Dave-L]

Adam clearly demonstrated his will in the garden when he chose to follow Eve and partake of the forbidden fruit. Eve was deceived but Adam made a conscious choice. Men choose to sin everyday. Men have the ability to choose Christ or choose to reject Christ and continue in their self will.

It is not Gods will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Men refuse to repent by choice not by nature.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Adam was under God's law. Law depends on free will. The OT is full of Law and Free Will. But grace is not law. And you turn the gospel into law and grace into works if your response determines salvation. Grace means your response is the result of Christ saving you.

 

[notuptome]

Where you miss it, is your choice was a misguided response to Christ giving you the new birth. In the NT, believers were baptized in place of today's going forward and choosing to believe. You must already believe (have salvation according to Christ) or you would never "choose" to believe.

You are misguided. You assume that your self righteousness has entitled you to special treatment. You are misguided into believing that you are what you are not. When you stop seeing yourself and begin to look upon Christ your self absorption will dissipate and you will see yourself as God sees you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dave-L]

You are misguided. You assume that your self righteousness has entitled you to special treatment. You are misguided into believing that you are what you are not. When you stop seeing yourself and begin to look upon Christ your self absorption will dissipate and you will see yourself as God sees you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You need to give God the glory in salvation. You chisel him out of it and take it for yourself believing in free will salvation.

 

[notuptome]

Adam was under God's law. Law depends on free will. The OT is full of Law and Free Will. But grace is not law. And you turn the gospel into law and grace into works if your response determines salvation. Grace means your response is the result of Christ saving you.

Really? Adam had only one prohibition everything else was given for Adam to enjoy. Adam was not tempted no was Adam beguiled, Adam choose. All else is to deny Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Parroting another nontruth. I chose to receive Christ as my Savior because it was revealed to me that I could not save myself. Gods word made clear that there were no works I could do, no acts of attrition I could render that would efface my sin.

Gods word by the Holy Spirit made clear the weight of sin I bore. I have felt the heavy conviction of sin. I have seen the perfect righteousness of Christ and how far short of it I fall. I have seen the awful penalty that sin carries.

I did not save myself but the mercy of God offer to me salvation by grace which I accepted by faith in the Savior Shrist.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I do not see offers to be saved as a new creation . I see it more as a commandment.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house

Not if you believe you will be saved being saved is the result of His work .it is the work of God that we can believe. Not of ourselves.

It becomes how do we define faith .What the scripture mean when it says no faith?

He must do the first work and give us His faith.

You said he gave you the faith to chose to receive Christ as your Savior because it was revealed to you that you could not save yourself.

How is salvation a offer and not work faith that worked in you to both will and perform His good pleasure?

Sounds to me he gave you the desire as a will and the power to work it out . Philippians informs us we should believe as he empowers us without murmuring

 

[notuptome]

You need to give God the glory in salvation. You chisel him out of it and take it for yourself believing in free will salvation.

Now you are just revealing your lack of discretion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dave-L]

Really? Adam had only one prohibition everything else was given for Adam to enjoy. Adam was not tempted no was Adam beguiled, Adam choose. All else is to deny Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if we have free will?

 

[Dave-L]

Now you are just revealing your lack of discretion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Who is saved? The one who gives God full glory for saving them? Or the one who tries to split the glory with him?

 

[garee]

Really? Adam had only one prohibition everything else was given for Adam to enjoy. Adam was not tempted no was Adam beguiled, Adam choose. All else is to deny Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Why the distinction between tempted and beguiled?

Adam ate and died. Eve ate and died. The letter of the law death was applied to both.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

He was only partly right ... has it occurred to you how much if he was wrong (which he was mostly) how he has maligned the nature of God.

There is no way around the fact that if God selects those He wants leaving others no choice...then he is a morally ambiguous God.

And Calvin as clever as he was did not follow his own dogma to is moral logical conclusion......
which is not good.

As well you you are listening to a man whose lens was completely shaped by St Augustine and Augustine did not get much right either having been influenced by the Roman church which definitely did not get much right.

I think Calvin took Augustine too far. The results of Calvin and his teaching is clear during the Geneva theocracy.
That being said I disagree with Arminius as well.

This is how I understand it to be, and it's fine if anyone wants to disagree, I'm no authority.
I believe the grace of God is for every person, and the great commission plays a role in his grace. That faith comes by hearing God's word. Because the Spirit of God inhabits his word, when a man hears it, the Spirit convicts of the truth, and gives power to believe. The hearer is either compelled by the truth or musters from his flesh the strength to reject. That the will of the man either gives way or hardens. But if that will gives way it is not an act of the will but an act against the will because the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I compare it to meeking a horse. On day the horse is out in the fields running wild. Then the horse is run into a coral, that horse continues to run inside that corral, round and round the perimeter. The trainer will step in and redirect that horse until it finally gives both eyes and ears to him, and then he stops the pressure and stands still. Invariably that horse will stop running and face the man in the center. This back and forth will continue until eventually the train will have a saddle on the horse and will be riding him round and round in that corral the end result is that horse becomes a beloved friend to the rider.
I know for those that know nothing of training horses this probably makes little sense. But I see the whole process as a picture of our salvation and our maturation or sanctification.
When the training is done you can walk into the pasture with a saddle and bridle and the horse will walk right up to you and stand for you to put a bit in his mouth, and the saddle on his back.
I had a horse one time that I could stand shoulder to shoulder with him, if I walked forward he walked forward, if I walked backward he walked backward, if I stepped left or right he did also. We call it hooked on in horse training speak.

 

[garee]

Who is saved? The one who gives God full glory for saving them? Or the one who tries to split the glory with him?

When the Son of man Jesus was faced with that kind of idea being accused of being the unseen Good Master not born of this world in the holy place of the hidden glory He gave full glory to the father not seen . He informs us his flesh( temporal corrupted) it profits for nothing.

He dared not to stand in the holy place as a abomination of desolation .One is good not seen. We walk by His faith as it does work in us. .

Mark 10:16-18 King James Version (KJV) And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

God is not a man as us. He defines the us in him.

 

[EleventhHour]

If God whose name is Jealous is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires .How would that make Him a morally ambiguous God?

I am not saying he is morally ambiguous, I am saying that the belief that God arbitrarily selects some for salvation makes morally ambiguous.
And that He has the right to do so is true since He is sovereign, but it still makes morally ambiguous in that framework, that is why the framework is wrong.
Sovereignty is more complex than absolute control.....but too many of the Calvinist framework tend to fall into very narrow definitions.

 

[Dave-L]

I think Calvin took Augustine too far. The results of Calvin and his teaching is clear during the Geneva theocracy.
That being said I disagree with Arminius as well.

This is how I understand it to be, and it's fine if anyone wants to disagree, I'm no authority.
I believe the grace of God is for every person, and the great commission plays a role in his grace. That faith comes by hearing God's word. Because the Spirit of God inhabits his word, when a man hears it, the Spirit convicts of the truth, and gives power to believe. The hearer is either compelled by the truth or musters from his flesh the strength to reject. That the will of the man either gives way or hardens. But if that will gives way it is not an act of the will but an act against the will because the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I compare it to meeking a horse. On day the horse is out in the fields running wild. Then the horse is run into a coral, that horse continues to run inside that corral, round and round the perimeter. The trainer will step in and redirect that horse until it finally gives both eyes and ears to him, and then he stops the pressure and stands still. Invariably that horse will stop running and face the man in the center. This back and forth will continue until eventually the train will have a saddle on the horse and will be riding him round and round in that corral the end result is that horse becomes a beloved friend to the rider.
I know for those that know nothing of training horses this probably makes little sense. But I see the whole process as a picture of our salvation and our maturation or sanctification.
When the training is done you can walk into the pasture with a saddle and bridle and the horse will walk right up to you and stand for you to put a bit in his mouth, and the saddle on his back.
I had a horse one time that I could stand shoulder to shoulder with him, if I walked forward he walked forward, if I walked backward he walked backward, if I stepped left or right he did also. We call it hooked on in horse training speak.

The dead human spirit cannot "hear" the word. Only the born again spirit can.

 

[EleventhHour]

I think Calvin took Augustine too far. The results of Calvin and his teaching is clear during the Geneva theocracy.
That being said I disagree with Arminius as well.

This is how I understand it to be, and it's fine if anyone wants to disagree, I'm no authority.
I believe the grace of God is for every person, and the great commission plays a role in his grace. That faith comes by hearing God's word. Because the Spirit of God inhabits his word, when a man hears it, the Spirit convicts of the truth, and gives power to believe. The hearer is either compelled by the truth or musters from his flesh the strength to reject. That the will of the man either gives way or hardens. But if that will gives way it is not an act of the will but an act against the will because the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I compare it to meeking a horse. On day the horse is out in the fields running wild. Then the horse is run into a coral, that horse continues to run inside that corral, round and round the perimeter. The trainer will step in and redirect that horse until it finally gives both eyes and ears to him, and then he stops the pressure and stands still. Invariably that horse will stop running and face the man in the center. This back and forth will continue until eventually the train will have a saddle on the horse and will be riding him round and round in that corral the end result is that horse becomes a beloved friend to the rider.
I know for those that know nothing of training horses this probably makes little sense. But I see the whole process as a picture of our salvation and our maturation or sanctification.
When the training is done you can walk into the pasture with a saddle and bridle and the horse will walk right up to you and stand for you to put a bit in his mouth, and the saddle on his back.
I had a horse one time that I could stand shoulder to shoulder with him, if I walked forward he walked forward, if I walked backward he walked backward, if I stepped left or right he did also. We call it hooked on in horse training speak.

Yes I agree.
I absolutely agree that the grace of God is for everyone and not just for a select few, and He works in everyone's life, and yes some suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[EleventhHour]

The dead human spirit cannot "hear" the word. Only the born again spirit can.

I really do not think this is true... one does not have to be born again to respond to truth, but certainly the Spirit of God is at work.
The point is to not rely on human wisdom, but rather the truth of the scripture, human wisdom does not understand the cross.
However, people can a do become like children and are able to lay down preconceived ideas.

 

[garee]

I think Calvin took Augustine too far. The results of Calvin and his teaching is clear during the Geneva theocracy.
That being said I disagree with Arminius as well.

This is how I understand it to be, and it's fine if anyone wants to disagree, I'm no authority.
I believe the grace of God is for every person, and the great commission plays a role in his grace. That faith comes by hearing God's word. Because the Spirit of God inhabits his word, when a man hears it, the Spirit convicts of the truth, and gives power to believe. The hearer is either compelled by the truth or musters from his flesh the strength to reject. That the will of the man either gives way or hardens. But if that will gives way it is not an act of the will but an act against the will because the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I compare it to meeking a horse. On day the horse is out in the fields running wild. Then the horse is run into a coral, that horse continues to run inside that corral, round and round the perimeter. The trainer will step in and redirect that horse until it finally gives both eyes and ears to him, and then he stops the pressure and stands still. Invariably that horse will stop running and face the man in the center. This back and forth will continue until eventually the train will have a saddle on the horse and will be riding him round and round in that corral the end result is that horse becomes a beloved friend to the rider.
I know for those that know nothing of training horses this probably makes little sense. But I see the whole process as a picture of our salvation and our maturation or sanctification.
When the training is done you can walk into the pasture with a saddle and bridle and the horse will walk right up to you and stand for you to put a bit in his mouth, and the saddle on his back.
I had a horse one time that I could stand shoulder to shoulder with him, if I walked forward he walked forward, if I walked backward he walked backward, if I stepped left or right he did also. We call it hooked on in horse training speak.

Good example. Reminded me of the Jeremiah parable that defines the proper order of repenting comforting one self having the assurance of where we are being led. The two turnings as one work of the owner . First he turn us puling on the reigns to hear the command and in turn we can follow him .

Not sure as a city person but do you think it would be more work to turn a horse unaccustomed to the bit and reigns or a yoked bullock ?

Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James Version (KJV) And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.
Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.