Verse for "once saved always saved"?
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Nor has anyone shown me a verse that says that once a person is saved that he will never in the future be lost. The verses above (Rom 8:39,40) say that "we" can never be separated from God's love. Who is "we"? Are all "unbelievers" separated from God's love? All valid questions to ask and interpret: but the verses do not clearly state the "eternal security doctrine"
Even if you take the exact words of Kenneth Wuest (which as any commentary must be seen as the fallible words of a man): "present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement" -- this says that salvation persists through the present moment - NOT indefinitely into the future. To try to say that Ephesians 2:8 directly teaches eternal security (even using the Greek periphrastic tense) - well - I just don't see it:
It does teach "security of the believer" but not of the unbeliever.
It does teach "security of the believer" but not of the unbeliever.
Think carefully about your answer for a bit: "How can we lose something we did nothing to gain?" In real life this happens all the time: someone gains an inheritance, or is given an anonymous gift, but they can just as quickly lose it! You ask a rhetorical question in an attempt to make a point, but your opening premise is faulty.
This is why my question is: Can anyone give a verse that states clearly "once saved always saved"?
This is why my question is: Can anyone give a verse that states clearly "once saved always saved"?
G
It is not the periphrastic tense. It is the periphrastic PERFECT. It is the use of 2 verb forms in a statement because the writer cannot get all of the information included in one verb form. And it a very forceful statement.
The perfect tense of "having been saved" gives us the eternal security of the believer. You have been saved with the result that it continues on FOREVER.
The perfect tense of "having been saved" gives us the eternal security of the believer. You have been saved with the result that it continues on FOREVER.
F
The problem with this topic, that I have found, is that Justification and Sanctification are being mixed up. Being justified, or made right with God through the blood of Jesus Christ, isn't something we can earn. However, being sanctified, or made holy in our lifestyle, takes the power of God through the Holy Spirit and our own free will to accomplish, hence our works.
Faith and Works complete the whole picture.
Faith and Works complete the whole picture.
S
I was replying to "HisHolly's" quote which was........."If you continue.. His work is a finished work but ours is not". The work is finished for us by Christ. That's why it's good news. There is nothing left for us to "do" for salvation because Jesus did it all. If people are learning from the Spirit and not the flesh, the fact that there is nothing left we can do should communicate to us we can never lose it. GOD saves us, we don't save ourselves.
[h=1]Galatians 3:3[SUP] - [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/h]
[h=1]Galatians 3:3[SUP] - [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/h]
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The difference is that the unchanging GOD give the gift of free justification (rom 3.24.-25), free eternal life (Rom 6.23), and free salvation (eph 2.8-9) - HIS salvation to all who believe truly,
verses
'All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from Heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent
Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day,' (John 6.37-39)
But you do not believe (My Father's works) because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and none shall pluck them from My hand. My Father who gave them to Me is greater than all, and no one IS ABLE to pluck them out of the Father's hand. I and my Father are one (John 10.27-30).
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being accounted as righteous by His grace FREELY through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith by His blood (Rom 3,23-25).
'Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come behind in no gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,who will also confirm you unto the end, that you might be unreproveable in the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (1 Corinth 1.6-8). (and this the corinthian church!)
'By grace you are saved, through faith, and that (gracious act) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God and not of doings, lest any man should boast, for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them' (Eph 2.8-10).
'Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ' (Phil 2.6).
'Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our doings, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but now has been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel (2 Tim 1.9).
I am not ashamed, for I know Him Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that Day (2 Tim 1.12).
But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and His love towards man appeared, not by works done in righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which He poured out upon us richly through Christ Jesus our Saviour, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3.4-7).
Wherein God, being minded to show more abundantly unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His Counsel, interposed with an oath, that by two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie we may have a strong encouragement who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us, which we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and entering into that within the veil, whither as a forerunner Jesus entered for us, having become a High Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek (Heb 7.7-20).
Wherefore He is able to save to the uttermost them that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them (Heb 7.25).
He has perfected for ever those who are being sanctified (Heb 10.14)
verses
'All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from Heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent
Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day,' (John 6.37-39)
But you do not believe (My Father's works) because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and none shall pluck them from My hand. My Father who gave them to Me is greater than all, and no one IS ABLE to pluck them out of the Father's hand. I and my Father are one (John 10.27-30).
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being accounted as righteous by His grace FREELY through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith by His blood (Rom 3,23-25).
'Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come behind in no gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,who will also confirm you unto the end, that you might be unreproveable in the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (1 Corinth 1.6-8). (and this the corinthian church!)
'By grace you are saved, through faith, and that (gracious act) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God and not of doings, lest any man should boast, for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them' (Eph 2.8-10).
'Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ' (Phil 2.6).
'Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our doings, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but now has been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel (2 Tim 1.9).
I am not ashamed, for I know Him Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that Day (2 Tim 1.12).
But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and His love towards man appeared, not by works done in righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which He poured out upon us richly through Christ Jesus our Saviour, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3.4-7).
Wherein God, being minded to show more abundantly unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His Counsel, interposed with an oath, that by two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie we may have a strong encouragement who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us, which we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and entering into that within the veil, whither as a forerunner Jesus entered for us, having become a High Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek (Heb 7.7-20).
Wherefore He is able to save to the uttermost them that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them (Heb 7.25).
He has perfected for ever those who are being sanctified (Heb 10.14)
You do not get saved over night and conformed into the full image of Christ, so that you can pretty much walk into eternity. I don't think so.
Getting saved is a process. It's the dismantling of the natural mind, so that Christ may grow within the soul.
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Rom 8:29
Getting saved is a process. It's the dismantling of the natural mind, so that Christ may grow within the soul.
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Rom 8:29
You do not get saved over night and get conformed into the full image of Christ, so that you can pretty much walk into eternity. I don't think so.
Getting saved is a process. It's the dismantling of the natural mind, so that Christ may grow within the soul.
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Rom 8:29
So, I don't believe it happens overnight. Why do you have to be conformed into the image of his Son, if you are already in the image of God ? Or are you? The spiritual image of your carnal/natural mind is in the image of the Serpent. And we know that from what happened in the garden of Eden. So that is the reason, that sinful/enmity of our minds have to be converted.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" Romans 8:7
Getting saved is a process. It's the dismantling of the natural mind, so that Christ may grow within the soul.
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Rom 8:29
So, I don't believe it happens overnight. Why do you have to be conformed into the image of his Son, if you are already in the image of God ? Or are you? The spiritual image of your carnal/natural mind is in the image of the Serpent. And we know that from what happened in the garden of Eden. So that is the reason, that sinful/enmity of our minds have to be converted.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" Romans 8:7
S
When Jesus said "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life", shouldn't that be enough for anyone to conclude that upon "belief" (trust in, reliance, dependence on) they have everlasting life? This is God the Son telling you if your faith is in Him for salvation, you have everlasting life!
John 3:36[SUP] - [/SUP]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Why is this question even necessary? Because people are ignorant of scripture! I don't mean that in an ugly way, I'm just saying that some have never actually been saved, and the "natural man" cannot understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). If someone could not understand that this verse answers the question, the next question needed to be asked of themselves is "have I ever believed salvation was by grace through faith in Christ alone? Or am I trusting in myself in some way in addition to the work Jesus completed for me?"
John 3:36[SUP] - [/SUP]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Why is this question even necessary? Because people are ignorant of scripture! I don't mean that in an ugly way, I'm just saying that some have never actually been saved, and the "natural man" cannot understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). If someone could not understand that this verse answers the question, the next question needed to be asked of themselves is "have I ever believed salvation was by grace through faith in Christ alone? Or am I trusting in myself in some way in addition to the work Jesus completed for me?"
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G
If we just use one of the many verses that teach eternal security, lets just stick to Eph 2:8 for now. A few things have been brought up about that specific verse already. And we may glean some wisdom from your 20 years of knowledge of the Greek and your teaching it.
the periphrastic Perfect of "having been saved" teaches eternal security dogmatically.
Having been saved in the past, with the result that it continues on forever, at any present time in the believers life they remain saved.
Can you show us how this is wrong?
the periphrastic Perfect of "having been saved" teaches eternal security dogmatically.
Having been saved in the past, with the result that it continues on forever, at any present time in the believers life they remain saved.
Can you show us how this is wrong?
Ah, this was more what I expected when I started this post: some powerful Scripture verses!
Comments:
(1) Please let's not minimize these promises to those who are believing in Jesus Christ.
(2) I am not going to try to give a Biblical response to all these verses: as I said earlier - this has been done before many times and with a little searching you can find answers on both sides of the issue for all these verses.
(3) So who is right? "eternal security" or not? That is not my point here or my question. My question is: does a verse clearly say "once saved, always saved'?
(4) I don't see that any of the above verses say that once a person is saved he can never lose his salvation:
Examples: John 10:27-30 - It is the "sheep" that he gives eternal life to. Who are the sheep? those who believed at a point in time in the past? or those who are at that moment believing? What is eternal life? if it is defined as "living forever" then I believe unbelievers would also have "eternal life" (if you believe hell is forever)
I Cor. 1:6-8; Phil 2:6; and others - The issue on some of these verses is to who is the promise given?
Heb. 10: 14 - so is a blatant unbelieving sinner (who previously believed) "being sanctified by God"? I think that is at least a question open to discussion - so I don't think this verse clearly says that all who were saved cannot be lost.
For many (all!) of the verses I see beautiful truths, but I don't see a clear "once saved always saved" statement:
Example: Titus 3:4-7 - beautiful powerful truths, but I don't see anything even close to "once a person is saved, he is not able to lose his salvation:
Comments:
(1) Please let's not minimize these promises to those who are believing in Jesus Christ.
(2) I am not going to try to give a Biblical response to all these verses: as I said earlier - this has been done before many times and with a little searching you can find answers on both sides of the issue for all these verses.
(3) So who is right? "eternal security" or not? That is not my point here or my question. My question is: does a verse clearly say "once saved, always saved'?
(4) I don't see that any of the above verses say that once a person is saved he can never lose his salvation:
Examples: John 10:27-30 - It is the "sheep" that he gives eternal life to. Who are the sheep? those who believed at a point in time in the past? or those who are at that moment believing? What is eternal life? if it is defined as "living forever" then I believe unbelievers would also have "eternal life" (if you believe hell is forever)
I Cor. 1:6-8; Phil 2:6; and others - The issue on some of these verses is to who is the promise given?
Heb. 10: 14 - so is a blatant unbelieving sinner (who previously believed) "being sanctified by God"? I think that is at least a question open to discussion - so I don't think this verse clearly says that all who were saved cannot be lost.
For many (all!) of the verses I see beautiful truths, but I don't see a clear "once saved always saved" statement:
Example: Titus 3:4-7 - beautiful powerful truths, but I don't see anything even close to "once a person is saved, he is not able to lose his salvation:
G
I am just a babe in Christ and it is amazing to me how many 30,40,50,60 year olds don't even have their salvation figured out yet.
And the majority of them aren't really looking to see if they themselves will lose salvation. Its the other guy, so they have a scale to feel justified. That is my observation anyway.
And the majority of them aren't really looking to see if they themselves will lose salvation. Its the other guy, so they have a scale to feel justified. That is my observation anyway.