We know Jesus is not Jehovah/YHVH

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,037
2,965
113
#21
Is Isaiah a liar? I believe him.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,590
6,287
113
#22
I explained that in #7
no you didn't.

what you did was similar to this:


the answer is 4
π
how did you get 4π for the answer?
because the answer is 4π

that's not an explanation. all you did was restate your premise.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#23
no you didn't.

what you did was similar to this:


the answer is 4
π
how did you get 4π for the answer?
because the answer is 4π

that's not an explanation. all you did was restate your premise.
The grammar shows two Jehovahs. Gen 19:24 was used along with Psalm 110:1 in the formulation of the Trinity doctrine.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,590
6,287
113
#24
Jesus is Jehovah

because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9‭, ‬13 ASV
https://bible.com/bible/12/rom.10.9-13.ASV

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered;
Joel 2:32 ASV
https://bible.com/bible/12/jol.2.32.ASV
put that together with this:

I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no Savior besides Me.
(Isaiah 43:11)

YHWH is Savior and there is no other Savior but YHWH.
Jesus of Nazareth is the Savior and there is no other.

there is One God and there is no other Jehovah.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,590
6,287
113
#25
The grammar shows two Jehovahs. Gen 19:24 was used along with Psalm 110:1 in the formulation of the Trinity doctrine.
the grammar doesn't show two Gods.

there is one God. He Himself reigned brimstone and fire down in judgement: brimstone and fire down from Himself.

the second clause reinforces the first statement by repetition, not by introducing polytheism.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#26
put that together with this:

I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no Savior besides Me.
(Isaiah 43:11)

YHWH is Savior and there is no other Savior but YHWH.
Jesus of Nazareth is the Savior and there is no other.


there is One God and there is no other Jehovah.
Jesus is Jehovah and the Father is Jehovah. They are not the same person but two different persons.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#27
the grammar doesn't show two Gods.

there is one God. He Himself reigned brimstone and fire down in judgement: brimstone and fire down from Himself.

the second clause reinforces the first statement by repetition, not by introducing polytheism.
There are not two clauses in the original. That is why it was used in the formulation of the Trinity.
 

Dartman

New member
Jul 4, 2018
8
2
1
#28
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus testimony would have you to believe differently.

If you are saying that Jesus is not God you are dead wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jesus made it very clear, he and his God ARE one, just like the believers are one with both Jesus and his God.
John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus also made it VERY clear, he did the will of his God/Father, NOT his own will ..... which created that oneness.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
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#29
the grammar doesn't show two Gods.

there is one God. He Himself reigned brimstone and fire down in judgement: brimstone and fire down from Himself.

the second clause reinforces the first statement by repetition, not by introducing polytheism.
Two different persons called Jehovah in Gen 19:24 is also confirmed here:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 ASV
https://bible.com/bible/12/jhn.1.1.ASV
 

Dartman

New member
Jul 4, 2018
8
2
1
#31
Two different persons called Jehovah in Gen 19:24 is also confirmed here:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 ASV
https://bible.com/bible/12/jhn.1.1.ASV
Logos in the Scriptures means "words, or expressed thought". John uses "logos" roughly 40 times, and it is ALWAYS consistent with the actual definition of the word. John 1:1 means EXACTLY what it says about God's words.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#32
Jesus made it very clear, he and his God ARE one, just like the believers are one with both Jesus and his God.
John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus also made it VERY clear, he did the will of his God/Father, NOT his own will ..... which created that oneness.
Jesus never said His believers and God are one. Jesus was including Himself in the language of the Shema and His audience understood He was because they next said He was making Himself God and they tried to kill Him for it. Read the context in jn 10.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,590
6,287
113
#34
There are not two clauses in the original. That is why it was used in the formulation of the Trinity.
although i do still think there is a second clause in the sentence, i don't know anywhere near enough about Hebrew to participate in such a discussion.
i think i see partly what you are getting at here -- you're not saying there are multiple gods, but that Christ and YHVH are one God, and that what we're seeing in the text of Genesis 19:24 is an inkling of that; God in two persons destroying Sodom, Christ Himself ((as the Angel of the LORD?)) on earth and Yah in heaven simultaneously?

i may be getting distracted by your use of the word Jehovah. Babel happened, after all, and we don't really all speak one language at present -- i get the feeling we may be agreeing with each other after all :)
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#35
Logos in the Scriptures means "words, or expressed thought". John uses "logos" roughly 40 times, and it is ALWAYS consistent with the actual definition of the word. John 1:1 means EXACTLY what it says about God's words.
In this context John means the Logos is a person because gk= pros is always a person when used with another person.
 

Dartman

New member
Jul 4, 2018
8
2
1
#36
Jesus is Jehovah

because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9‭, ‬13 ASV
https://bible.com/bible/12/rom.10.9-13.ASV

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered;
Joel 2:32 ASV
https://bible.com/bible/12/jol.2.32.ASV
A proper exegesis of Rom 10 includes the fact that Jesus is Jehovah's holy servant, Jehovah's anointed/Christ, and Jesus commanded us to love his God, worship his God, which defines "call upon the name of Jehovah/YHVH.
 

Dartman

New member
Jul 4, 2018
8
2
1
#37
God is not only one person. God is more than one person.
.... says no Scripture, ever.
There is only "one true God, and Jesus Christ, whom THOU hast sent".... according to Jesus himself (John 17:3)
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
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#38
although i do still think there is a second clause in the sentence, i don't know anywhere near enough about Hebrew to participate in such a discussion.
i think i see partly what you are getting at here -- you're not saying there are multiple gods, but that Christ and YHVH are one God, and that what we're seeing in the text of Genesis 19:24 is an inkling of that; God in two persons destroying Sodom, Christ Himself ((as the Angel of the LORD?)) on earth and Yah in heaven simultaneously?

i may be getting distracted by your use of the word Jehovah. Babel happened, after all, and we don't really all speak one language at present -- i get the feeling we may be agreeing with each other after all :)
Yes, God is a trinitarian monotheism not a unitarian monotheism.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#40
A proper exegesis of Rom 10 includes the fact that Jesus is Jehovah's holy servant, Jehovah's anointed/Christ, and Jesus commanded us to love his God, worship his God, which defines "call upon the name of Jehovah/YHVH.
Are you a JW?