WHAT ABOUT THE THEIF ON THE CROSS??

[cronjecj]

Sure, I see what your saying, great passages you brought out.
]Me too, Im glad to see someone making that connection. The Old and New covenants really have a beautiful harmony with each other. But still the Bible clearly shows that baptism is essential to salvation, of course not baptism alone.

Think about this if the thief was baptized with water prior his crucifixion with Jesus but did not acknowledge Christ it would not have helped him in any way whatsoever..

but, lets say if the thief were not baptized with water prior his crucifixion with Jesus but indeed acknowledge Christ would God denied him access to His kingdom (paradise)??

thus, baptism is essential for the walking in newness of life.

In the Old Testament period, baptism was a ritual of conversion to Judaism. Pagans would become proselytes through this ritual by self-baptizing themselves to become part of the Jewish people. So it was an Identification with the people of God.


"In the name of Jesus" distinguishes the Christian baptism from all others at that time. This is not referring to the formula said over a person, but indicated a confession in Christ which was made publicly. To be baptized in Jesus' name was the command to the hearers of the Gospel. Does this contradict Matt. 28:19 of being baptized in the Trinitarian formula? No, Jesus is the sole representative of the triune God in bodily form. We are told there is no other name by which one is to be saved. He alone is the fullness of the Godhead (bodily.)

 

[cronjecj]

to be continued from previous post..

Dear Freem3, i got this from the Jesus is savior website... (little lengthy but worth the read)

His name was used to represent the Godhead to the hearers of the Gospel, distinguishing it from the other baptisms of their day. Church history and tradition shows the Trinitarian form, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, was the method of baptism (MT.28). There are two major ordinances in the New Testament, baptism and the Lord's supper. In the Old Testament, the major ordinances were circumcision and the Passover. The Passover was changed to the Lord's supper and points back to the death of Christ and His future return. It is a memorial which we take until He comes, identifying with His death and second coming. While the Old Testament circumcision was of the flesh, the New Testament circumcision is of the heart, an internal renewal by the Spirit, a cutting away of the sins of the flesh. (Col. 2:11,13 ; Phil. 3:3). Mistakes are made when one uses an ordinance which is a symbol and makes it an actual occurrence of grace. People misplace faith in the ordinances to get what they symbolize. Take, for example, the Catholic view of the Lord's supper as being able to impart grace; the same as with baptism. In the third century, believers started to baptize their children before any confession of faith. They related this to the rite of circumcision, which was applied to sons at eight days old, so similarly, baptism was applied to children. Yet it is by faith and God's grace one is saved. No work of man or any kind of Biblical ritual can impart grace. Salvation is neither a creed, a doctrine, nor ordinance. It is found only in a person - Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and that was done for us.
Almost every covenant had a sign or token along with it. For Noah, it was the rainbow; for Abraham, it was circumcision; for Moses, it was the Sabbath; and for the new covenant of grace, it is baptism by water. None of these were the covenant itself but a token of one's entry into a covenant with God. All were visible means for the participants in it. Baptism is to identify with a person, a group of people, or the message. As Christians this has been practiced as an ordinance. It is a symbol and witness of the change of ownership that has taken place for us. We identify with the Lord Jesus, His message, and the body of believers. It is a symbol of my old life being dead (I was crucified and buried with Christ and raised up to newness of life). This new life takes place at the cross by His death and resurrection, not when I'm immersed in water. Those who heard John's and Jesus' message and believed, were obedient to be baptized in water as the visible sign of their repentance. It is a symbol, not the substance.
Some References of Baptism and Faith used in the New Testament Books:

Book of the Bible
Water Baptism Faith Mentioned Mark 6 19 John 1 95 Acts 9 53 Romans 1 35 1 Corinthians 1 (good), 5(negative) 17 Galatians 1 22 Ephesians 0 10 Philippians 0 6 Colossians 1 5 Hebrews 0 43 1 John 0 6​

Book of the Bible
Water Baptism Faith Mentioned Mark 6 19 John 1 95 Acts 9 53 Romans 1 35 1 Corinthians 1 (good), 5(negative) 17 Galatians 1 22 Ephesians 0 10 Philippians 0 6 Colossians 1 5 Hebrews 0 43 1 John 0 6

This is by no means an exhaustive comparison, yet, this shows the overall usage of both baptism and faith. The Bible teaches that by God's grace; through faith the means, salvation is given. Over 240 times, faith (belief) is the only required condition for salvation. The book of John which teaches who Jesus is and how one can be saved mentions salvation by belief (faith) 95 times. The basic Biblical principle of interpretation (hermeneutics) is that we don't ever interpret the major portion of Scripture by the lesser. A natural example: The branches of a tree never interpret the trunk. The trunk is what upholds the branches. It is the main strength that gives life to those that extend out from it. If we look at the book of Acts which shows the practices of early Christianity we find some very revealing facts...

Instances where baptism is mentioned in the book of Acts: Acts 2:37-41; 8:5-13; 8:37, 38; 9:1-18, 22; 10:43,48; 16:14, 30-34; 18:8; and 19:5 (a total of 9 times, which are always attached to faith)​

Instances where baptism is not mentioned: Acts 2:47; 4:4; 5:14; 6:7; 9:35, 42; 11:21, 24; 12:24; l3:12, 43, 48; 14:1, 7,22,27; 16:5; 17:4, 12, 34; 19:17-20; 26:18 28:23, 24 (a total of 22 times there are conversions with faith and no hint of baptism)​

This does not mean they disposed of the rite of baptism. What it does indicate is that salvation is found outside the practice of baptism. Nowhere does it say "to be baptized to be saved" by itself. However you will find faith separate from baptism for salvation. The greater context in scripture always teaches salvation occurs before baptism. No one followed Jesus to be saved, nor were they baptized to be saved. If they were pronounced saved by their faith before baptism then baptism is clearly not part of the gospel.
Christ offered himself as salvation to the people. Mary when found with the child said she rejoiced in "God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). Simeon likewise in Luke 2:29-30 said as he held the baby Jesus, "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation." Salvation is never referred to as a "rite" or an "ordinance" -salvation is a Person. This is what makes Christianity different from religion, it is not by works.


Peace.

 

[feedm3]

[FONT=&quot]That’s the problem man¸ stop listening to man and listen to the Bible. I have tried contacting David J. Stewart ( he writes a lot of articles on that site) and no response. I have broken down his articles and Biblically refuted him online. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now I read this lengthy article because you said it was worth it, so hopefully you will read my rebuttal, because im telling you it is worth it (and not that lengthy).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

His name was used to represent the Godhead to the hearers of the Gospel, distinguishing it from the other baptisms of their day. Church history and tradition shows the Trinitarian form, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, was the method of baptism (MT.28). There are two major ordinances in the New Testament, baptism and the Lord's supper. In the Old Testament, the major ordinances were circumcision and the Passover. The Passover was changed to the Lord's supper and points back to the death of Christ and His future return. It is a memorial which we take until He comes, identifying with His death and second coming. While the Old Testament circumcision was of the flesh, the New Testament circumcision is of the heart, an internal renewal by the Spirit, a cutting away of the sins of the flesh. (Col. 2:11,13 ; Phil. 3:3). Mistakes are made when one uses an ordinance which is a symbol and makes it an actual occurrence of grace.

[FONT=&quot]It does not matter how it was used in the Old Testament, we are under the New Testament and if this is what COMMANDED then we must obey it in order to obtain salvation[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

People misplace faith in the ordinances to get what they symbolize. Take, for example, the Catholic view of the Lord's supper as being able to impart grace; the same as with baptism. In the third century, believers started to baptize their children before any confession of faith. They related this to the rite of circumcision, which was applied to sons at eight days old, so similarly, baptism was applied to children. Yet it is by faith and God's grace one is saved. No work of man or any kind of Biblical ritual can impart grace.

[FONT=&quot]Actually the only way to receive grace is through righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Righteousness can only be obtained through obedience Rom 6:16.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Therefore, grace cannot be obtained through belief alone.[/FONT]

Salvation is neither a creed, a doctrine, nor ordinance. It is found only in a person - Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and that was done for us.

[FONT=&quot]What does the “third century believers” have to do with what is written in the New Testament?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Almost every covenant had a sign or token along with it. For Noah, it was the rainbow; for Abraham, it was circumcision; for Moses, it was the Sabbath; and for the new covenant of grace, it is baptism by water.

[FONT=&quot]Ok, lets pretend this true, in this instance, this sign of baptism “washes away our sins”.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If this is the case, how can we be saved before this is done?[/FONT]

None of these were the covenant itself but a token of one's entry into a covenant with God. All were visible means for the participants in it. Baptism is to identify with a person, a group of people, or the message.

[FONT=&quot]Yet the Bible tells us that it:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Washes away sin – Acts 22:16[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frees us from sin – Rom 6:3-f.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Puts us IN to Christ – Gal 3:27.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Adds us to Christ church – Acts 2:38, 47.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Does is more than a “token”, a “token” does none of these things.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As Christians this has been practiced as an ordinance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I do not read anywhere of this being an ordinance practiced by Christians, but commanded to Christians, and we read they obeyed.[/FONT]

It is a symbol and witness of the change of ownership that has taken place for us. We identify with the Lord Jesus, His message, and the body of believers. It is a symbol of my old life being dead (I was crucified and buried with Christ and raised up to newness of life). This new life takes place at the cross by His death and resurrection, not when I'm immersed in water. Those who heard John's and Jesus' message and believed, were obedient to be baptized in water as the visible sign of their repentance. It is a symbol, not the substance.
Some References of Baptism and Faith used in the New Testament Books:
Book of the Bible
Water Baptism Faith Mentioned Mark 6 19 John 1 95 Acts 9 53 Romans 1 35 1 Corinthians 1 (good), 5(negative) 17 Galatians 1 22 Ephesians 0 10 Philippians 0 6 Colossians 1 5 Hebrews 0 43 1 John 0 6

Book of the Bible
Water Baptism Faith Mentioned Mark 6 19 John 1 95 Acts 9 53 Romans 1 35 1 Corinthians 1 (good), 5(negative) 17 Galatians 1 22 Ephesians 0 10 Philippians 0 6 Colossians 1 5 Hebrews 0 43 1 John 0 6

This is by no means an exhaustive comparison, yet, this shows the overall usage of both baptism and faith. The Bible teaches that by God's grace; through faith the means, salvation is given. Over 240 times, faith (belief) is the only required condition for salvation.

[FONT=&quot]You not get a valid interpretation by counting how many times faith is mentioned without baptism.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Most of the letters in the Bible were written to Christians, would it make sense to keep repeating baptism to already baptized believers?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I Pet 3:21 mentions baptism, but NOT faith or repentance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Should I count this to see if we do not need faith or repentance?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of course not, I know other passages tell me I Must have faith, that means I know I need them both, as well as the passages that ONLY mention repentance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Would you take a recipe for making Peanut butter cake and count how many time peanut butter is mentioned, and how many times only butter is mentioned to determine if you only need regualar butter or peanut butter?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is a foolish way to interpret the Bible. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You really need to read what the Bible says, and ask yourself common sense questions like [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who was being written, Christians or non-Christians?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Could they have already been baptized? See Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27(both were churches indicating they were already baptized – see how those in Acts 2: were added to the church Acts 2:38, 47)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]

 

[cronjecj]

[FONT=&quot]That’s the problem man¸ stop listening to man and listen to the Bible. I have tried contacting David J. Stewart ( he writes a lot of articles on that site) and no response. I have broken down his articles and Biblically refuted him online. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now I read this lengthy article because you said it was worth it, so hopefully you will read my rebuttal, because im telling you it is worth it (and not that lengthy).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It does not matter how it was used in the Old Testament, we are under the New Testament and if this is what COMMANDED then we must obey it in order to obtain salvation[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Actually the only way to receive grace is through righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Righteousness can only be obtained through obedience Rom 6:16.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Therefore, grace cannot be obtained through belief alone.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What does the “third century believers” have to do with what is written in the New Testament?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Ok, lets pretend this true, in this instance, this sign of baptism “washes away our sins”.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If this is the case, how can we be saved before this is done?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yet the Bible tells us that it:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Washes away sin – Acts 22:16[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frees us from sin – Rom 6:3-f.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Puts us IN to Christ – Gal 3:27.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Adds us to Christ church – Acts 2:38, 47.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Does is more than a “token”, a “token” does none of these things.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As Christians this has been practiced as an ordinance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I do not read anywhere of this being an ordinance practiced by Christians, but commanded to Christians, and we read they obeyed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You not get a valid interpretation by counting how many times faith is mentioned without baptism.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Most of the letters in the Bible were written to Christians, would it make sense to keep repeating baptism to already baptized believers?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I Pet 3:21 mentions baptism, but NOT faith or repentance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Should I count this to see if we do not need faith or repentance?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of course not, I know other passages tell me I Must have faith, that means I know I need them both, as well as the passages that ONLY mention repentance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Would you take a recipe for making Peanut butter cake and count how many time peanut butter is mentioned, and how many times only butter is mentioned to determine if you only need regualar butter or peanut butter?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is a foolish way to interpret the Bible. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You really need to read what the Bible says, and ask yourself common sense questions like [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who was being written, Christians or non-Christians?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Could they have already been baptized? See Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27(both were churches indicating they were already baptized – see how those in Acts 2: were added to the church Acts 2:38, 47)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]

Ok cut to the chase here man,

On the contrary baptism can only do good for a christian for it is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 (KJV)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Every christian should get baptized with water i agree here a 100% because it is beneficial to the believer to have a good conscience toward God.

But God will NOT deny a believer of Christ entrance to the kingdom of heaven should he died in a car accident on his way to be baptized.

Ultimately it is the blood of Christ that really washes away the sins of a reborn christian.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

 

[feedm3]

Every christian should get baptized with water i agree here a 100% because it is beneficial to the believer to have a good conscience toward God.

My point is we are not a christian until we get baptized, becuase we are still in our sins until we are baptized Acts 22:16.
I can choose to believe and do nothing else the Bible says, this will not save me.

But God will NOT deny a believer of Christ entrance to the kingdom of heaven should he died in a car accident on his way to be baptized.

I cant say either way because that is "going beyond what is written" which we must not do 1 Cor 4:6.

Ultimately it is the blood of Christ that really washes away the sins of a reborn christian.

Yes it is.
How do we contact the blood of Christ?
since it is the blood that washes away our sins, then whatever act the Bible tells us "washes away our sins", that is the act that puts us into contact with the blood.
So, baptism is the only act mentioned in the Bible that "washes away our sins", therefore by this act of baptism we are contacting the blood of Christ.
If not, then how?

Revelation 1:5 (KJV)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
What act do think "washed them with Christ's blood"?

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one


I am not arguing for baptism because I love getting wet so much, but because the Bible is so easy and clear that all must be baptized in order to be saved. Believing otherwise leads to so much error, and leads some to never get baptized thinking it is optional.

 

[tribesman]

Hi feedm3, I would like an input from you, if you will, on my latest reply to you in this thread. Here it goes:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/33879-what-about-theif-cross-7.html#post588690 <- link

 

[feedm3]

Hi feedm3, I would like an input from you, if you will, on my latest reply to you in this thread. Here it goes:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/33879-what-about-theif-cross-7.html#post588690 <- link

sure, I am going there now.

 

[cronjecj]

My point is we are not a christian until we get baptized, becuase we are still in our sins until we are baptized Acts 22:16.
I can choose to believe and do nothing else the Bible says, this will not save me.
I cant say either way because that is "going beyond what is written" which we must not do 1 Cor 4:6.
Yes it is.
How do we contact the blood of Christ?
since it is the blood that washes away our sins, then whatever act the Bible tells us "washes away our sins", that is the act that puts us into contact with the blood.
So, baptism is the only act mentioned in the Bible that "washes away our sins", therefore by this act of baptism we are contacting the blood of Christ.
If not, then how?

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one


I am not arguing for baptism because I love getting wet so much, but because the Bible is so easy and clear that all must be baptized in order to be saved. Believing otherwise leads to so much error, and leads some to never get baptized thinking it is optional.

What does Romans 10:9-10 mean to you?

We can't accept the one but reject the other. You love getting wet i can see that but ya only have to get wet once with water into the resurrection of Christ and a good conscience toward God so that the believers knows for sure that His sins has been washed with the blood of the Lamb. Meaning the guilt is gone.

Hi wakeup.

 

[feedm3]

Yes, I would see it that way too nowadays. If baptism now replaces circumcision as the sign and seal of the covenant, then it must consequently mean that we need baptism today as much as the old covenant Saints needed circumcision in their day. Yet, of course, baptism without faith helps nothing.

Totally agree, faith gives us the "power" or "the right" to become the sons of God, yet we can reject this by not obeying what is commanded to become such - Jn 1:12-f.

The question that follows then is if baptismal regeneration is a reality, or if baptism is literally just a sign and a seal, not being the thing itself signified?

From the examples we find in the New Testament, we see that baptism is a "seal of the covenant" but not limited just to that.
The blood of Christ is what cleanses us, the question is how do we contact His blood?
The Bible also shows us that the water, the Spirit, and the blood all agree in one - I Jn 5:8
After all, when Christ was pierced out came blood and water(Jn 19:34), they are inseparable when one is baptized by the command of the Spirit (I Cor 12:13).
Christ's blood washes away our sins, no doubt there.
The Bible also tells us baptism washes away our sins - Acts 22:16.
This is not a contradiction,but instead this shows the connection between the water and the blood.
Those who were "being saved" in Acts 2:47, were being saved by repentance and baptism(and of course faith).
Due to this they were added by the Lord to the church - 47.
Rom 6:3-f. reveals that baptism does much for an individual.
Frees us from sin, buries us with Christ, destroys the old man, and gives us newness of life.

As you probably know, for example presbyterianism (for the most part) would see baptism as a " badge" and an entrance to the covenant community, not necessarily conferring regeneration.
Yes and this is what alot of others teach.

When it comes to regeneration, there are two parts at work.

1. God's grace, without that we would all be doomed to hell - Rom 3:23, 6:23.
2. Man's obedience - without this part being fulfilled by us - the promises are nullified because we are breaking the agreement.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (THIS IS THE PROMISE GIVEN TO THE OBEDIENT)

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (THIS IS THE PROMISE MADE VOID DUE TO DISOBEDIENCE)
This was a warning to the Christians who received this Epistle (and still serves the same for us) that they would not be saved by faith alone.
When we choose not to repent or be baptized, or confess, then we are being disobedient.

Lutheranism as another example on the other hand would say that baptism is regenerational but that it will avail nothing aside from faith.[/QUOTE] Since faith comes from the words of the Spirit (Rom 10:17) without it would render baptism useless.

Finally, back to the actual topic. The question if whether the justified thief was baptized or not (which he most likely was, in some form, assuming he was Jewish) might actually be a secondary issue. Since this was under the old covenant, what counted most was that he was circumcised (this is, again, assuming he was jewish). Right?

Totally agree.

 

[feedm3]

What does Romans 10:9-10 mean to you?

Well lets see,
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
These passages tell me a number of things.

1. it was written to those who were already Christians - "the church at Rome."
2. They had already been baptized (no need to tell them again Rom 6:3).
3. They needed to continue to confess Christ even when there were those who were trying to bind the Law of Moses on them.
4. This continued confession would lead them to salvation (keep them saved).
5. We must all also "confess Christ" in order to be saved.

• Or I could use your method of interpretation:
• Forget who, when and why, this was being written.
• Next, notice everything it does NOT say, no mention of REPENTANCE, that must mean we do not have to do so?

Pleas explain this passage you cited:

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

• what to the words "believe unto righteousness" mean?
• First you need to understand HOW to obtain righteousness:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

• Righteousness is only obtained through obedience.
• BELIEF AND OBEDIENCE ARE SYNONYMOUS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!!!
  
• Therefore, if a man "believes unto righteous" does this not mean that a believer is expected to obey?
• SEE IF YOU DON'T JUST JERK ONE PASSAGE OUT OF CONTEXT AND READ THE BIBLE AS A WHOLE YOU WILL UNDERSTAND IT.
• YOU COULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE PASSAGES YOU CITED AND DID NOT EVEN HAVE TO LEAVE THE BOOK OF ROMANS!!

]We can't accept the one but reject the other. You love getting wet i can see that but ya only have to get wet once with water into the resurrection of Christ and a good conscience toward God so that the believers knows for sure that His sins has been washed with the blood of the Lamb. Meaning the guilt is gone.

SO THEN SALVATION COMES BY A CLEAN CONSCIENCE, OK MANY HAVE CLEAN CONSCIENCES AND STILL LIVE IN SIN, SOME DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN GOD AND HAVE "NO GUILT"

 

[cronjecj]

Well lets see,
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
These passages tell me a number of things.

1. it was written to those who were already Christians - "the church at Rome."
2. They had already been baptized (no need to tell them again Rom 6:3).
3. They needed to continue to confess Christ even when there were those who were trying to bind the Law of Moses on them.
4. This continued confession would lead them to salvation (keep them saved).
5. We must all also "confess Christ" in order to be saved.

• Or I could use your method of interpretation:
• Forget who, when and why, this was being written.
• Next, notice everything it does NOT say, no mention of REPENTANCE, that must mean we do not have to do so?

Pleas explain this passage you cited:

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

• what to the words "believe unto righteousness" mean?
• First you need to understand HOW to obtain righteousness:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

• Righteousness is only obtained through obedience.
• BELIEF AND OBEDIENCE ARE SYNONYMOUS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!!!
  
• Therefore, if a man "believes unto righteous" does this not mean that a believer is expected to obey?
• SEE IF YOU DON'T JUST JERK ONE PASSAGE OUT OF CONTEXT AND READ THE BIBLE AS A WHOLE YOU WILL UNDERSTAND IT.
• YOU COULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE PASSAGES YOU CITED AND DID NOT EVEN HAVE TO LEAVE THE BOOK OF ROMANS!!

SO THEN SALVATION COMES BY A CLEAN CONSCIENCE, OK MANY HAVE CLEAN CONSCIENCES AND STILL LIVE IN SIN, SOME DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN GOD AND HAVE "NO GUILT"

The righteousness is Christ in us, not of ourselves that Romans speaks of.

Those who sin does not have a clean conscience, you can ask anyone here.

Salvation comes by believing in Christ (righteousness) and by believing in Christ (righteousness) you get baptized and by baptism you receive a good conscience toward God.

 

[Israel]

Malachi 3:7-14

7Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

12And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

13Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?

14Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

If this thread is still about the thieves on the cross, again I say both are saved by the blood of Christ.

 

[2knowhim]

Amen Israel

Blessings

 

[feedm3]

The righteousness is Christ in us, not of ourselves that Romans speaks of.

do you have any passages to support you words, or do you just like giving your opinion?

Those who sin does not have a clean conscience, you can ask anyone here.

Salvation comes by believing in Christ (righteousness) and by believing in Christ (righteousness) you get baptized and by baptism you receive a good conscience toward God.

Belief is not righteousness, obedience due to that belief is.
"BAPTISM DOES ALSO NOW SAVE US"
He is not saying baptism "saves us from a bad conscience"
He said "it saves us" giving us a good conscience knowing we are saved.
this is not a complicated as your trying to make it.

 

[AnandaHya]

If this thread is still about the thieves on the cross, again I say both are saved by the blood of Christ.

you can say it again as many times as you want but you have already gotten responses with scripture to show how that stance is unbibilical.

 

[Israel]

you can say it again as many times as you want but you have already gotten responses with scripture to show how that stance is unbibilical.

Then kindly show me again with scripture. It's like most of you genuinely want those who don't fit the image you carved out as being godly, to burn forever!

God CANNOT BE BOTH eternal wrath and eternal mercy! They MUST meet at some point to display the truth of God.

 

[cronjecj]

Belief is not righteousness, obedience due to that belief is. Obedience is the result of believing unto righteousness and righteousness is not of ourselves but it's Christ in us.

"BAPTISM DOES ALSO NOW SAVE US" Agree........1 Peter 3:21 - baptism also now saves.

He is not saying baptism "saves us from a bad conscience" 1 Peter 3:21 - the answer of a good conscience toward God

He said "it saves us" giving us a good conscience knowing we are saved. Yes it saves us also. After we believe we get baptized in water.

Acts 16:31 (KJV)
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You get baptized after you believe unto Christ not the other way around thus verses like the above tells you the moment you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you are saved.

 

[Israel]

The story of the cross, for those who aren't afraid of going against the flawed grain of the image police, is about the world! As demonstrated by the verses in Malachi, we are ALL thieves! We have ALL robbed from God. The thief who told Jesus to save Himself represents those majority who still walk according to the course of this world. The thief that Jesus told would be in paradise to that point, USED to walk the same course as the former. His mind now being transformed by renewal, now sees life.

 

[cronjecj]

The righteousness is Christ in us, not of ourselves that Romans speaks of.

do you have any passages to support you words, or do you just like giving your opinion?

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.

2 Corrinthians 5:21 (KJV)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV)
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Phillipians 3:9 (KJV)
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Romans 10:4 (KJV)
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[feedm3]

Acts 16:31 (KJV)
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

You get baptized after you believe unto Christ not the other way around

Of course not, why would a non-believer get baptized? Thats is not what we are discussing, I never said you get baptized then you believe.



thus verses like the above tells you the moment you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you are saved.

No they don't say "the moment you believe" those are your words. The above passage and others like it do not have to say "believe in christ, then repent, and confess, and be baptized."
Peter had to convince him to believe in Christ first, of course their belief would lead them to salvation, As we see in the following verses "after he preached the word of the Lord" they were baptized INTO Christ.
If he would have refused to baptized, he would not have been a true believer and therefore NOT saved, and would have remained IN HIS SINS.

WAS PAUL SAVED BEFORE HE HAD HIS SINS WASHED AWAY?
DID ANANIAS UNDERSTAND WHEN ONES SINS ARE WASHED AWAY?
DO WE HAVE TO BE IN CHRIST TO BE SAVED?
HOW DO WE GET IN CHRIST?
DO WE HAVE TO BE FREED FROM SIN? HOW?