What are the Consequences of Falling from Grace?

[Goodnewsman]

let me respectfully, give you guys some advice. when two people start discussing "scriptures" please, please, please answer the questions that's being asked.

sir you did just like JOHN146 respond to my post with how wrong I am and never once "tell me" or show me how "wrong I am"

i'm not trying to be disrespectful, but have you ever been wrong before? (I have, more times than I care to admit, in fact)

many people are like the man who refuses to believe there is a sky, but at the same time he wont lift up his head.

while i'm at it.....another thing you HYPER-GRACE/UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SECURITY believers chap my hid with is this:
if somebody agrees with you, I've noticed "its brother this, brother that", but the moment somebody doesn't agree with you, and believe's you can "leave your salvation" many of you start accusing me of "not really being born again"

do y'all not see how double minded that is.

if I was at your church as a 19 year old boy weeping my way through to salvation, you would have rejoiced with me. I didn't know the scripture as I do now. what little I do know has come from 20 yeas of studying. so know you will take me back to that altar and tell me the reason I don't believe like you, is that I never really was born again to begin with.

another thing that gets my goat: many of you believe like I do, your to scared to admit it. I've worked with good Baptist brother's who came to work saying "man we had revival, 2 deacons and one preacher got saved" I said "WHAT, I DIDNT THINK YOU COULD LEAVE YOUR SALVATION"

can you guess there reply "oh they said they never was saved to begin with"

brethren, we are ALL capable of FALLING, right? so with this mentality in view "HOW DOES ANY OF US KNOW, THAT WE KNOW, THAT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED?"

I think our differences are where each of us draws the line between what defines a REAL CHRISTIAN and what defines a Counterfeit Christian; plus we totally differ on at what point in time we draw that line. You apparently draw that line at the Second Coming, While I draw that line at the very moment HE wrote our names in the Book of Life, before the foundation of the World.

Here is why I am sure of eternal security in CHRIST, and why I think your misunderstandings are treading on very thin ice:

Mark 9:41-42 (NASB)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

So how do we know who is for real, and who is not a real Christian?

By their fruit you WILL KNOW THEM. And just in case you do not know, meeting real NEEDS of others, is good fruit. While, focusing on SELF only is BAD FRUIT.

 

[brmicke]

This is quite easy - just stick to biblical terms and then let the bible define those terms. If we call ourselves saved we are saved from something.

John the Baptist gave us the answer to this - we are saved from God's wrath against sin.

Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 3:7 He said therefore to the multitudes that went out to be baptized of him, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
(ASV)

We have eternal life is we believe in Christ Jesus.

The terms eternal life and saved are not referring to the same concept.

God's wrath is revealed against all ungodliness (rm 1:18) that includes Christians who act in an ungodly manner (Heb 10:26).

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

God scourgeth everyone He accepts so the scourging or wrath is common to everyone. They experience the wrath and are scourged but if the keep the faith during the trials or scourging they do not lose their eternal life.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
(ASV)

If a person is scourged they are not saved from God's wrath but experience it. So we know we all experience it because we all have sinned. Big deal endure it and receive the reward -

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Notice the progression in Hebrews --

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
(ASV)

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Prety clear cut - losing salvations means to expect discipline but does not refer in any way to losing eternal life - the two terms/concepts ("saved" and "eternal life") when mixed together lead to this confusion.

Brian

 

[VCO]

let me respectfully, give you guys some advice. when two people start discussing "scriptures" please, please, please answer the questions that's being asked.

sir you did just like JOHN146 respond to my post with how wrong I am and never once "tell me" or show me how "wrong I am"

i'm not trying to be disrespectful, but have you ever been wrong before? (I have, more times than I care to admit, in fact)

many people are like the man who refuses to believe there is a sky, but at the same time he wont lift up his head.

while i'm at it.....another thing you HYPER-GRACE/UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SECURITY believers chap my hid with is this:
if somebody agrees with you, I've noticed "its brother this, brother that", but the moment somebody doesn't agree with you, and believe's you can "leave your salvation" many of you start accusing me of "not really being born again"

do y'all not see how double minded that is.

if I was at your church as a 19 year old boy weeping my way through to salvation, you would have rejoiced with me. I didn't know the scripture as I do now. what little I do know has come from 20 yeas of studying. so know you will take me back to that altar and tell me the reason I don't believe like you, is that I never really was born again to begin with.

another thing that gets my goat: many of you believe like I do, your to scared to admit it. I've worked with good Baptist brother's who came to work saying "man we had revival, 2 deacons and one preacher got saved" I said "WHAT, I DIDNT THINK YOU COULD LEAVE YOUR SALVATION"

can you guess there reply "oh they said they never was saved to begin with"

brethren, we are ALL capable of FALLING, right? so with this mentality in view "HOW DOES ANY OF US KNOW, THAT WE KNOW, THAT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED?"

You just gave an excellent example of why we question if you are born again. He said you will KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. Good Fruit is lifestyle characteristics that come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and we are not seeing it in you.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

And the fact that you do not KNOW that you are Saved, presents yet another big question mark. WE KNOW BECAUSE WE KNOW HIM INTIMATELY AND PERSONALLY. PLUS THIS:

1 John 2:3-6 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

[VCO]

You just gave an excellent example of why we question if you are born again. He said you will KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. Good Fruit is lifestyle characteristics that come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and we are not seeing it in you.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

And the fact that you do not KNOW that you are Saved, presents yet another big question mark. WE KNOW BECAUSE WE KNOW HIM INTIMATELY AND PERSONALLY. PLUS THIS:

1 John 2:3-6 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

In addition, the Gospel we teach and believe is when it comes to Salvation, CHRIST DID IT ALL, HE SAVED US AND HE KEEPS US.

The Gospel you teach is ANOTHER GOSPEL, NOT THE SAME AS WE TEACH AND BELIEVE.
You teach CHRIST DID NOT DO IT ALL, we have to do our part to KEEP SALVATION, or we lose it.

So what does the Bible say about those who would teach another gospel?

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be seduced from a complete and pure devotion to Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!

Galatians 1:6-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ ⌊and are turning⌋ to a different gospel—
[SUP]7 [/SUP] not that there is another ⌊gospel⌋, but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the good news about the Messiah.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him!

I am sorry to be so blunt, but you wanted a straight answer as to why we question if you are born again. But what do you expect when you come teaching a different gospel.

We can however show you our love, by calling to you to COME. But until you do, I do not see where the Scriptures allow us to call you one of the Brethren.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

So we question, DID the Holy Spirit begin that good work in you, or was it just YOU going through the motions.

 

[Goodnewsman]

I think you just sit down at your computer and start typing "stuff" randomly, off top of your head or something.
WERE HAVE YOU EVER READ THAT I DIDNT "KNOW" THAT I WAS SAVED??????

YOU ARE THE ONE THAT KEEPS TELLING ME THAT I LOST MY SALVATION, ALL THE WHILE ARGUEING THAT A PERSON CANT LOSE THEIR SALVATION.........WHICH DO YOU BELIEVE?

I'M AS CONFUSED AS A TERMITE IN A YOYO WITH YOU SIR.

You just gave an excellent example of why we question if you are born again. He said you will KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. Good Fruit is lifestyle characteristics that come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and we are not seeing it in you.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

And the fact that you do not KNOW that you are Saved, presents yet another big question mark. WE KNOW BECAUSE WE KNOW HIM INTIMATELY AND PERSONALLY. PLUS THIS:

1 John 2:3-6 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

[VCO]

. . . we are ALL capable of FALLING, right? so with this mentality in view "HOW DOES ANY OF US KNOW, THAT WE KNOW, THAT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED?"

THAT IS YOUR OWN STATEMENT, AND NOW YOU ARE FLIP FLOPPING, LIKE A SEASONED DEMOCRATIC POLITIAN.


Whereas we KNOW absolutely that HE SAVED US AND THAT HE IS THE ONE WHO IS HOLDING ON TO OUR SALVATION.

BUT much more than that, Our inner personal LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST is extremely REAL, and we REALLY DO "KNOW HIM" personally. HE IS IN US and WE ARE IN HIM, is the REALITY that assures us that HE IS HOLDING OUR SALVATION ABSOLUTELY SECURE.

Hebrews 13:5-8 (NRSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have; for he has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you."
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So we can say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can anyone do to me?"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 14:15-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

Matthew 19:29 (ASV)
[SUP]29[/SUP] And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life.

An inheritance is a FREE GIFT, not something you work for and EARN.

John 5:24 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life.
He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.


NOTICE HE SAYS, we already have that eternal life. So what part of ETERNAL do you not understand?
Since this body will die, HE is obviously talking about our human spirit, when the Holy Spirit births our human spirit to life, it is ETERNAL LIFE, therefore HE certainly is talking about our ETERNAL SALVATION.

Hebrews 5:9 (ASV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey Him the author of eternal salvation;


CAN'T you see how your false theology of losing your Salvation, CONTRADICTS what the Scriptures actually Say in the above verses.

 

[Goodnewsman]

Is that the reason your bible is so small? do you just pull out what you want it to say to try to prove your point?

why would you try to take a portion of my post out of context to prove your hypocrisy?

here let me copy & paste it in it's context:
another thing that gets my goat: many of you believe like I do, your to scared to admit it. I've worked with good Baptist brother's who came to work saying "man we had revival, 2 deacons and one preacher got saved" I said "WHAT, I DIDNT THINK YOU COULD LEAVE YOUR SALVATION"

can you guess there reply "oh they said they never was saved to begin with"

brethren, we are ALL capable of FALLING, right? so with this mentality in view "HOW DOES ANY OF US KNOW, THAT WE KNOW, THAT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED?"

again believing the way you do, how do you know if your saved?????? that was a question to you

THAT IS YOUR OWN STATEMENT, AND NOW YOU ARE FLIP FLOPPING, LIKE A SEASONED DEMOCRATIC POLITIAN.


Whereas we KNOW absolutely that HE SAVED US AND THAT HE IS THE ONE WHO IS HOLDING ON TO OUR SALVATION.

BUT much more than that, Our inner personal LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST is extremely REAL, and we REALLY DO "KNOW HIM" personally. HE IS IN US and WE ARE IN HIM, is the REALITY that assures us that HE IS HOLDING OUR SALVATION ABSOLUTELY SECURE.

Hebrews 13:5-8 (NRSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have; for he has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you."
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So we can say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can anyone do to me?"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 14:15-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

Matthew 19:29 (ASV)
[SUP]29[/SUP] And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life.

An inheritance is a FREE GIFT, not something you work for and EARN.

John 5:24 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life.
He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.


NOTICE HE SAYS, we already have that eternal life. So what part of ETERNAL do you not understand?
Since this body will die, HE is obviously talking about our human spirit, when the Holy Spirit births our human spirit to life, it is ETERNAL LIFE, therefore HE certainly is talking about our ETERNAL SALVATION.

Hebrews 5:9 (ASV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey Him the author of eternal salvation;


CAN'T you see how your false theology of losing your Salvation, CONTRADICTS what the Scriptures actually Say in the above verses.

 

[ForthAngel]

brethren, we are ALL capable of FALLING, right? so with this mentality in view "HOW DOES ANY OF US KNOW, THAT WE KNOW, THAT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED?"

By being a five point Calvinist? Did I win?

 

[VCO]

By being a five point Calvinist? Did I win?

Wrong, by being non-denominational conservative evangelical who only believes in three of the Calvinist's five points.

In other words by Genuinely KNOWING HIM, intimately and personally.

 

[VCO]

Is that the reason your bible is so small? do you just pull out what you want it to say to try to prove your point?

why would you try to take a portion of my post out of context to prove your hypocrisy?

here let me copy & paste it in it's context:
another thing that gets my goat: many of you believe like I do, your to scared to admit it. I've worked with good Baptist brother's who came to work saying "man we had revival, 2 deacons and one preacher got saved" I said "WHAT, I DIDNT THINK YOU COULD LEAVE YOUR SALVATION"

can you guess there reply "oh they said they never was saved to begin with"

brethren, we are ALL capable of FALLING, right? so with this mentality in view "HOW DOES ANY OF US KNOW, THAT WE KNOW, THAT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED?"

again believing the way you do, how do you know if your saved?????? that was a question to you

What you do not understand still, is that if you possess all of the Bible College and Seminary degrees that exist, and you came through the WRONG GATE, you STILL ARE NOT SAVED AND NEVER HAVE BEEN.

As for interpretation of Scripture, we do it the Berean WAY. That means we use every verse between Gen. 1:1 and Rev. 22:21. We check out EVERY BIBLE TEACHER, by comparing Verses on the same subject, letting SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, knowing GOD DID NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF. Any time you think you found a contradiction, it is you who made the ERROR in interpretation of at least one or or possibly even both verses, NOT GOD.

Yes, we put YOU to that same test, THUS your theology, and your teachings, and your opinions failed miserably. Therefore we ignore your teachings as FALSE TEACHINGS and FALSE DOCTRINE. If the Berean's took the time to check out Paul's teachings that way, then we are RESPONSIBLE to check out anyone teaching or trying to teach us, that very same way; especially since the Scriptures tell us that because the Berean's did so, GOD calls them more NOBLE than the THESSALONIANS:

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

 

[VCO]

. . .

again believing the way you do, how do you know if your saved?????? that was a question to you

Because HE and the Holy Spirit, most certainly IS in my heart!

That is an absolute REALITY, not a figure of speech.

He HAS BEEN CHANGING my life from the inside out and HE has worked way to many miracles in my life to EVER DOUBT HIM.

THE NIGHT I WAS SAVED, I GENUINELY, FOREVER GOT DOWN OFF THE THRONE OF MY LIFE, AND GAVE THAT THRONE TO HIM.

AND because I TOTALLY TRUST AND BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS IN HIS WORD.

 

[Goodnewsman]

I FINALLY SEE NOW, HOW YOU JUSTIFY YOUR UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SECURITY DOCTRINE.

WHEN SOMEONE BACKSLIDES AND GOES BACK TO THE WORLD YOU JUST LOOK AT EACH OTHER AND SAY "HE CAME THROUGH THE WRONG GATE"

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BACKSLIDERS THAT CAME THROUGH THE "RIGHT GATE"? OR DID YOU JUST THINK THEY CAME THROUGH RIGHT GATE, TILL THEY BACKSLID, THEN YOU HAVE TO SAY, NO THEY CAME THROUGH THE WRONG GATE

WOW!! YOU MUST BE REALLY GOOD AT CHECKING THE GATE

What you do not understand still, is that if you possess all of the Bible College and Seminary degrees that exist, and you came through the WRONG GATE, you STILL ARE NOT SAVED AND NEVER HAVE BEEN.

As for interpretation of Scripture, we do it the Berean WAY. That means we use every verse between Gen. 1:1 and Rev. 22:21. We check out EVERY BIBLE TEACHER, by comparing Verses on the same subject, letting SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, knowing GOD DID NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF. Any time you think you found a contradiction, it is you who made the ERROR in interpretation of at least one or or possibly even both verses, NOT GOD.

Yes, we put YOU to that same test, THUS your theology, and your teachings, and your opinions failed miserably. Therefore we ignore your teachings as FALSE TEACHINGS and FALSE DOCTRINE. If the Berean's took the time to check out Paul's teachings that way, then we are RESPONSIBLE to check out anyone teaching or trying to teach us, that very same way; especially since the Scriptures tell us that because the Berean's did so, GOD calls them more NOBLE than the THESSALONIANS:

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

 

[fredoheaven]

It wasn't a surprise, membership of Deacon Board is a not guarantee of salvation. A member of a deacon board may be a member of a demon board, likewise, a preacher of unrighteousness may act as Preacher of righteousness and perhaps believe in "Christian Purgatory"... A truly saved person can still backslid yet cannot lose his salvation. of course, we can know for sure in the scriptures that our spiritual salvation's intact for eternity. God bless!

 

[VCO]

I FINALLY SEE NOW, HOW YOU JUSTIFY YOUR UNCONDITIONAL ETERNAL SECURITY DOCTRINE.

WHEN SOMEONE BACKSLIDES AND GOES BACK TO THE WORLD YOU JUST LOOK AT EACH OTHER AND SAY "HE CAME THROUGH THE WRONG GATE"

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BACKSLIDERS THAT CAME THROUGH THE "RIGHT GATE"? OR DID YOU JUST THINK THEY CAME THROUGH RIGHT GATE, TILL THEY BACKSLID, THEN YOU HAVE TO SAY, NO THEY CAME THROUGH THE WRONG GATE

WOW!! YOU MUST BE REALLY GOOD AT CHECKING THE GATE

You are unbelievable. You read my posts, or at least you claim to read them; but you still have NO UNDERSTANDING of what I am telling you about our beliefs.

Backsliding is NOT the same as FALSELY CLAIMING TO KNOW HIM. They are TWO different things.

These are backsliders, and the most common reason is FAILURE to feed on enough of the "Spiritual Food", which is the WORD OF GOD:

Hebrews 5:11-14 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Ephesians 4:14 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.


Proverbs 14:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied from above.

The backslider has taken his eyes off JESUS, and is beginning to focus again on SELF, and thus he slides back from Spiritual Maturity, perhaps all the way to becoming once again, a Spiritual Baby; yet they will produce some FRUIT and show some genuine LOVE for CHRIST, and LOVE for the Brethren. THEIR LOVE FOR CHRIST WILL BRING THEM TO REPENTENCE.


NOW THE COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS, who NEVER produce any good fruit, NEVER have any Genuine Love for Christ and the Brethren, and sooner or later ABANDON the Fellowship, are THESE:

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made
manifest, that none of them were of us.

Their Lifestyle is Characterized by a lack of God given Love, a lack of God given Joy, a lack of God given Peace, etc. They have NO intimate Loving Relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and Master. They put on Christianity like it was a coat, when it serves THEIR PURPOSES, and just a quickly take it off, when it does not. Their motive acting like a Christian is PURELY SELFISH; such as: "I have to earn my Salvation or KEEP my Salvation", "I want to look good to my friends and impress them", "I want to get the conservative Christian votes", "I want to rub God the right way so that HE does what I WANT", etc.

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Matthew 25:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12[/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’

1 John 2:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


It is also very easy to see that you have NO spiritual understanding of what the Parable of the Gates is all about. NO it is NOT ABOUT WATCHING GATES, it is about distinguishing true Christians from Counterfeit Christians by examining the FRUIT they are producing. That parable should ALWAYS BE READ in it's CONTEXT, because the entire Context is about the SAME SUBJECT:

ENTERING THE KINGDOM

Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


Why do you have so much trouble understanding what I am telling you? Could this be why?


1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Nikki84]

You are unbelievable. You read my posts, or at least you claim to read them; but you still have NO UNDERSTANDING of what I am telling you about our beliefs.

Backsliding is NOT the same as FALSELY CLAIMING TO KNOW HIM. They are TWO different things.

These are backsliders, and the most common reason is FAILURE to feed on enough of the "Spiritual Food", which is the WORD OF GOD:

Hebrews 5:11-14 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Ephesians 4:14 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.


Proverbs 14:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied from above.

The backslider has taken his eyes off JESUS, and is beginning to focus again on SELF, and thus he slides back from Spiritual Maturity, perhaps all the way to becoming once again, a Spiritual Baby; yet they will produce some FRUIT and show some genuine LOVE for CHRIST, and LOVE for the Brethren. THEIR LOVE FOR CHRIST WILL BRING THEM TO REPENTENCE.


NOW THE COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS, who NEVER produce any good fruit, NEVER have any Genuine Love for Christ and the Brethren, and sooner or later ABANDON the Fellowship, are THESE:

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made
manifest, that none of them were of us.

Their Lifestyle is Characterized by a lack of God given Love, a lack of God given Joy, a lack of God given Peace, etc. They have NO intimate Loving Relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and Master. They put on Christianity like it was a coat, when it serves THEIR PURPOSES, and just a quickly take it off, when it does not. Their motive acting like a Christian is PURELY SELFISH; such as: "I have to earn my Salvation or KEEP my Salvation", "I want to look good to my friends and impress them", "I want to get the conservative Christian votes", "I want to rub God the right way so that HE does what I WANT", etc.

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Matthew 25:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12[/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’

1 John 2:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


It is also very easy to see that you have NO spiritual understanding of what the Parable of the Gates is all about. NO it is NOT ABOUT WATCHING GATES, it is about distinguishing true Christians from Counterfeit Christians by examining the FRUIT they are producing. That parable should ALWAYS BE READ in it's CONTEXT, because the entire Context is about the SAME SUBJECT:

ENTERING THE KINGDOM

Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


Why do you have so much trouble understanding what I am telling you? Could this be why?


1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

I'm having a hard time with this hyper grace stuff also

 

[Goodnewsman]

let me see once again if I can make this plan for anyone who believes that in unconditional eternal security. ie LOSING SALVTAION.

Please read the parable of the sower.

Luke 8:11-15 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

i'll give it to you hear.....these in verse 12....not saved, never was saved.


[SUP]13 [/SUP] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

did you notice verse 13????? "for a while they believed" and "in a time of temptation, fell away"

how can you fall away from something if you never had it??? nonsense

You are unbelievable. You read my posts, or at least you claim to read them; but you still have NO UNDERSTANDING of what I am telling you about our beliefs.

Backsliding is NOT the same as FALSELY CLAIMING TO KNOW HIM. They are TWO different things.

These are backsliders, and the most common reason is FAILURE to feed on enough of the "Spiritual Food", which is the WORD OF GOD:

Hebrews 5:11-14 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Ephesians 4:14 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.


Proverbs 14:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied from above.

The backslider has taken his eyes off JESUS, and is beginning to focus again on SELF, and thus he slides back from Spiritual Maturity, perhaps all the way to becoming once again, a Spiritual Baby; yet they will produce some FRUIT and show some genuine LOVE for CHRIST, and LOVE for the Brethren. THEIR LOVE FOR CHRIST WILL BRING THEM TO REPENTENCE.


NOW THE COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS, who NEVER produce any good fruit, NEVER have any Genuine Love for Christ and the Brethren, and sooner or later ABANDON the Fellowship, are THESE:

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made
manifest, that none of them were of us.

Their Lifestyle is Characterized by a lack of God given Love, a lack of God given Joy, a lack of God given Peace, etc. They have NO intimate Loving Relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and Master. They put on Christianity like it was a coat, when it serves THEIR PURPOSES, and just a quickly take it off, when it does not. Their motive acting like a Christian is PURELY SELFISH; such as: "I have to earn my Salvation or KEEP my Salvation", "I want to look good to my friends and impress them", "I want to get the conservative Christian votes", "I want to rub God the right way so that HE does what I WANT", etc.

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Matthew 25:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12[/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’

1 John 2:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


It is also very easy to see that you have NO spiritual understanding of what the Parable of the Gates is all about. NO it is NOT ABOUT WATCHING GATES, it is about distinguishing true Christians from Counterfeit Christians by examining the FRUIT they are producing. That parable should ALWAYS BE READ in it's CONTEXT, because the entire Context is about the SAME SUBJECT:

ENTERING THE KINGDOM

Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


Why do you have so much trouble understanding what I am telling you? Could this be why?


1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Goodnewsman]

why I don't believe in unconditional eternal security:

John 8:30-31 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] As he spake these words, many believed on him.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

did you notice Jesus spoke to belivers and said "IF, IF, IF, IF" YE CONTIUE.......(Do I need to repost the definition of the word "if" if--something that may or may not happen")

even though they had believed, they must continue....

let me see once again if I can make this plan for anyone who believes that in unconditional eternal security. ie LOSING SALVTAION.

Please read the parable of the sower.

Luke 8:11-15 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

i'll give it to you hear.....these in verse 12....not saved, never was saved.


[SUP]13 [/SUP] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

did you notice verse 13????? "for a while they believed" and "in a time of temptation, fell away"

how can you fall away from something if you never had it??? nonsense

 

[Goodnewsman]

why I don't believe in unconditional eternal security:

John 8:30-31 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] As he spake these words, many believed on him.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

did you notice Jesus spoke to belivers and said "IF, IF, IF, IF" YE CONTIUE.......(Do I need to repost the definition of the word "if" if--something that may or may not happen")

even though they had believed, they must continue....

 

[John146]

why I don't believe in unconditional eternal security:

John 8:30-31 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] As he spake these words, many believed on him.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

did you notice Jesus spoke to belivers and said "IF, IF, IF, IF" YE CONTIUE.......(Do I need to repost the definition of the word "if" if--something that may or may not happen")

even though they had believed, they must continue....

What did these people believe? The death, burial and resurrection? Nope, it had not happened yet. You can't apply this doctrine to the body of Christ which did not start until after the resurrection.

 

[Goodnewsman]

another reason I don't believe the nonsense of these "wolves in sheep's clothing" preaching "once saved, always saved"
John 3:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

notice the word "believeth" in verse 16 & 18??? notice its "present tense" believeth- means (is believing)

he didn't say "he that believed" but rather "he that believeth" present tense

DID YOU USE TO BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUSE? ACCORDING TO YOUR DOCTRINE, IF YOU EVER "BELIEVED" YOU CANT STOP BELEVING!!!!!!

SERIOUSLY, DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUSE????