What does the Law REALLY say?

[Dan_473]

Torah is the teaching and instructions of the written law (and some oral) that is contained in the first five books of the OT scribed by Moses for the people that were delivered from Egypt and the generations that would follow in the promised land. Does anyone have a problem with this simple understanding of the Torah and its application?

I think that's a good understanding and application... for me, another application is studying it to gain wisdom...

 

[JaumeJ]

Torah does not define or translate as law, though it may include the law.
Below is part of the Webster dictionary definition. Google it, and you will find more information. One may refer to the entire Bible, Oldand New Testaments as Torah, and in so doing would be emplying the word properly.
1
: the body of wisdom and law contained in Jewish Scripture and other sacred literature and oral tradition
2
: the five books of Moses constituting the Pentateuch

3
: a leather or parchment scroll of the Pentateuch used in a synagogue for liturgical purposes

 

[Elin]

I have witnessed those who earnestly desire to please the Father in
obeying Him as taught by Jesus Christ being called arrogant or as feeling superior by others who teach mercy has replaced the Father's commandments.

Keeping in mind that the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers
are the teachings of Jesus Christ (2Co 12:3-9).

 

[Elin]

While out on an errand I realized one part of my earlier post may be misconstrued due to my own ambiguity, but I assure all, I believe the same as always. Of course
the laws of punishment and death are replaced by mercy,

The moral laws of punishment and death for criminality are not replaced by mercy.

 

[Elin]

People have often misunderstood what is meant by the term 'law' in the Bible. They sometimes think it means just the ten commandments or the first five books of the Bible attributed most closely with Moses. However, the entire Bible is inspired by God, and
the entire word of God is what is meant by the term 'law' when the Bible uses it. That is why the blessed (saved) man in Psalm 1 meditates on the law day and night and why it is his delight. It is the entire word that he is allowed to meditate on, the law of God. Further, Psalm 119 uses the term 'law' interchangeably with words like precepts, word, statutes, testimonies, commandments. These are other terms used to describe the Bible as well.
Further, it is good to remember that the Bible is written in parable form (Palm 78:2, Mark 4) so that meanings are often in need of interpretation further than just the surface text.
Further, it is also good to remember what Hebrews 7:19 reminds us:For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. The better hope is Jesus. The Bible (law) makes nothing perfect by itself. Indeed, the Bible illustrates that humans just don't measure up to God's perfection as individuals. Thank God for Jesus who makes up the difference for us out of his great love. It is Jesus himself through whom we draw nigh unto God.

Actually, the NT shows several different names which meant all of Scripture:
the Law;
the Law and the Prophets;
the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms.

 

[Elin]

It seems the Children of Israel who did actually study "the Law" were aware of this you have posted. What many people either do not know or deliberately ignore is something very basic which deals directly with your grace-filled understanding, and that is that
the word, torah, does not mean law, it means teaching,

Is all of the Torah the OT Scriptures?

 

[Elin]

And yet Jesus told His disciples to follow it.

Keeping in mind that Jesus was born and lived under the law,
as did those to whom he preached.

What he said during his earthly ministry reflects that.

But that is not all Jesus said (2Co 12:4-9).

We have the rest of the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) in the NT writers.

 

[cfultz3]

Matthew 5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

If God still requires us to be righteous, then maybe we should start looking into what is righteous before God.........

 

[KohenMatt]

Keeping in mind that Jesus was born and lived under the law,
as did those to whom he preached.

What he said during his earthly ministry reflects that.

But that is not all Jesus said (2Co 12:4-9).

We have the rest of the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) in the NT writers.

Absolutely Jesus' words come through the rest of the NT. I'm just pointing out that He told His disciples to follow the Law in particular until heaven and earth pass away.

 

[KohenMatt]

LOANS, BUSINESS, AND THE TREATMENT OF SLAVES - Part 1 of 4

230 Deuteronomy 15:2 - Not to demand payment of debts after 7th year Shmitah.
And this is the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth ought unto his neighbour shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD'S release.


231 Deuteronomy 15:9 - Not to refuse loan to poor because 7th year Shmitah is near.
Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.


232 Deuteronomy 15:7 - Not to deny charity to the poor.
If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:


233 Deuteronomy 15:13 - Not sending a Hebrew bondman away empty-handed.
And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty:


234 Exodus 22:25 - Not demanding payment from a debtor known unable to pay.
If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.


235 Leviticus 25:37 - Not lending to another Jew at interest.
Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.


236 Deuteronomy 23:20 - Not borrowing from another Jew at interest.
Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.


237 Exodus 22:25 - Not participating in an agreement involving interest.
If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.


238 Leviticus 19:13 - Oppress not an employee by delaying paying his wages.
Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.


239 Deuteronomy 24:10 - Not taking a pledge from a debtor by force.
When thou dost lend thy brother any thing, thou shalt not go into his house to fetch his pledge.


240 Deuteronomy 24:12 - Not keeping a poor man's pledge when he needs it.
And if the man be poor, thou shalt not sleep with his pledge:


241 Deuteronomy 24:17 - Not taking any pledge from a widow.
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:


242 Deuteronomy 24:6 - Not taking one's business utensils in pledge.
No man shall take the nether or the upper millstone to pledge: for he taketh a man's life to pledge.

 

[Elin]

Absolutely Jesus' words come through the rest of the NT. I'm just pointing out that
He told His disciples to follow the Law in particular until heaven and earth pass away.

Yes, Jesus was born, lived and died under the old covenant and the law,
as did those to whom he preached.

Before his death, he gave his new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) law in Mt 22:37-39, which fulfills the law
without following all the myriad regulations and OT practices.

And after his death, he gave his new covenant revelation to Paul (2Co 12:4-9) and the other NT writers,
wherein we learn that the new covenant of Jer 31:31-34 (Heb 8:7-12) has made
the old covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13) and
has set aside the law as inoperative (Heb 7:18-19) for righteousness to salvation, for
we are saved by faith and not by law keeping.

 

[cfultz3]

I wonder, can we Christians be lascivious?

 

[Elin]

I wonder, can we Christians be lascivious?

Not for any great length of time, for God will discipline us and break us of it.

 

[just-me]

I wonder, can we Christians be lascivious?

We battle things as Paul did but I doubt this was one of them. We all have instincts but to the point of perverse motives, I don't think so.
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past , that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

 

[WomanLovesTX]

The law say's look to the cross. If the law was sufficient then why did God become a man and die on the cross?

God divorced the House of Israel and according to His own law cannot remarry her. Allow me to explain:

Jer_3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

From Isaiah we read

Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

AND WE READ GOD'S OWN LAW:

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Further we understand God's plan...

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight

Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

AND

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

A covenant is a marriage agreement. But God will not break His own law. So God's solution, which was a mystery until Jesus taught it to Paul, "God with us... Emanuel" Came to us and died for us, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (I prefer to call Him Yeshua which means Yah's Salvation). But it doesn't just end there, we too must die to our old nature and be baptized and raise up to a newness of life with Christ.

Only death of God/Yeshua/Immanuel will release us from the Old Covenant and allow us to enter into the New Covenant. God's ways are higher than ours and He is Perfect in all Righteousness.

 

[cfultz3]

We battle things as Paul did but I doubt this was one of them. We all have instincts but to the point of perverse motives, I don't think so.
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past , that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

Are you making this up or are there laws from God which says this?

 

[KohenMatt]

Yes, Jesus was born, lived and died under the old covenant and the law,
as did those to whom he preached.

Before his death, he gave his new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) law in Mt 22:37-39, which fulfills the law
without following all the myriad regulations and OT practices.

And after his death, he gave his new covenant revelation to Paul (2Co 12:4-9) and the other NT writers,
wherein we learn that the new covenant of Jer 31:31-34 (Heb 8:7-12) has made
the old covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13) and
has set aside the law as inoperative (Heb 7:18-19) for righteousness to salvation, for
we are saved by faith and not by law keeping.

If Jesus says to follow the Law until heaven and earth pass away, and the only law that existed and had been given to man was the Torah, then that would be the law He wants us to follow.

But if you want to believe otherwise, that's fine by me, but it seems like an awful lot of stretching to make a simple command make it say what you want it to say.

Thankfully though, it's not a salvation issue, and we can agree to disagree on it, without it affecting our unity in the Spirit.

 

[Alligator]

Yes, Jesus was born, lived and died under the old covenant and the law,
as did those to whom he preached.

Before his death, he gave his new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) law in Mt 22:37-39, which fulfills the law
without following all the myriad regulations and OT practices.

And after his death, he gave his new covenant revelation to Paul (2Co 12:4-9) and the other NT writers,
wherein we learn that the new covenant of Jer 31:31-34 (Heb 8:7-12) has made
the old covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13) and
has set aside the law as inoperative (Heb 7:18-19) for righteousness to salvation, for
we are saved by faith and not by law keeping.

If Jesus says to follow the Law until heaven and earth pass away, and the only law that existed and had been given to man was the Torah, then that would be the law He wants us to follow.

But if you want to believe otherwise, that's fine by me, but it seems like an awful lot of stretching to make a simple copp

mmand make it say what you want it to say.

Thankfully though, it's not a salvation issue, and we can agree to disagree on it, without it affecting our unity in the Spirit.

Jesus nailed the old law to the cross Col. 2:14; Eph. 2:15. Upon His death we are now under the NT law, the Gospel. Please provide the scripture you are referring to. The scripture is very clear that we now under grace, the law of Christ.

 

[KohenMatt]

Jesus nailed the old law to the cross Col. 2:14; Eph. 2:15. Upon His death we are now under the NT law, the Gospel. Please provide the scripture you are referring to. The scripture is very clear that we now under grace, the law of Christ.

Matthew 5:17-20
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[JaumeJ]

When you read the following scripture, please do not jump to conclusions. All who come to Jesus Christ iive by faith, for no one may justify himself by the law. Yet, it is the curse of the law that was nailed to the cross with Jesus Christ, for along with His having been made a curse for us, He also destroyed the power of the law, that is the curse of death that comes with it. Otherwise we would also be a curse, but He becomes this for us having overcome all. The law without the curse is good and still to be followed according to the teaching of Jesus Christ, according, also, to His Example, amen.



Gal 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:12
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Gal 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.