What does the Law REALLY say?

BradC · Sep 23, 2014

To be a believer filled with the righteousness of God you must be led by the Spirit and when the believer is led of the Spirit they are not under the law. That is what your Bible says in (Gal 5:18), do you reckon on that or do you play games with it? That is the righteousness that passes that of the scribes and Pharisees that we look for and it comes through Christ by the Spirit. The law is all that is contained within the Torah.

Many do not want to reckon on being led of the Spirit because they want to remain under the law and abide in the righteousness associated with it according to the flesh which is contrary to the Spirit. When a believer is filled with the Spirit they are not involved with keeping the law but they are filled with the Spirit of holiness (Rom 1:4) through grace and truth and the fruit thereof and against this there is no law given to dictate our behavior and obedience. We do not walk in the light of the NT commandments through keeping the law, we walk in the light of those commandments through the Holy Spirit quickening us according to the word and the doctrine we have received and been taught.

Psalm 119 is not remotely possible in the flesh without the Spirit. Trying to conform your obedience to any part of the law in the flesh is legalism and unwise, but walking by faith being led and filled by the Spirit transforms and renews us continually in the wisdom and knowledge of Christ Jesus. The words that Christ speaks unto us is Spirit and life, not the law or the letter that kills (John 6:63, 2 Cor 3:6), for the law came by Moses through the ministration of angels (Acts 7:53, Gal 3:19) but the life of grace and truth came by our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:16,17). Keeping the law will always strengthen sin (1Cor 15:56) and that is why Christ crucified sin and the flesh with all of its affections and lusts (Gal 5:24) and put us under grace. We should be rejoicing daily that Christ removed all men from being under the law and put us under grace that our hearts could be established in grace, for that is a good thing (Heb 13:9)!

just-me · Sep 23, 2014

BradC said:

Paul was lead by the spirit which I'm sure you agree with.
Acts 24:10-14
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak , answered , Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11 Because that thou mayest understand , that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship .
12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people , neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

There is a clear difference between seeking righteousness by the works of the law, and believing all things that are written in the law. If I believe as Paul did, it doesn't make me under the condemnation of the law. Neither him or I ever wanted to go back to our old nature and be condemned just because we esteem the law as spiritual, holy, just and good. Why was Paul labeled by the Jewish sect of that time? It was because he properly defined the truth in the law. He never preached against what he believed. Please let us believe as Paul did without assumptions of fleshly/carnal self justification innuendos.
You wrote, "walking by faith being led and filled by the Spirit transforms and renews us continually in the wisdom and knowledge of Christ Jesus."

I agree. This is something else Paul said concerning the law and faith. They work in coordination with each other by the indwelling Spirit of God that gives us the capability to do His will.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31)

God bless.

JaumeJ · Sep 23, 2014

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to just-me again. It does not get much better......excellent.

just-me said:

Paul was lead by the spirit which I'm sure you agree with.
Acts 24:10-14
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak , answered , Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11 Because that thou mayest understand , that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship .
12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people , neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

There is a clear difference between seeking righteousness by the works of the law, and believing all things that are written in the law. If I believe as Paul did, it doesn't make me under the condemnation of the law. Neither him or I ever wanted to go back to our old nature and be condemned just because we esteem the law as spiritual, holy, just and good. Why was Paul labeled by the Jewish sect of that time? It was because he properly defined the truth in the law. He never preached against what he believed. Please let us believe as Paul did without assumptions of fleshly/carnal self justification innuendos.
You wrote, "walking by faith being led and filled by the Spirit transforms and renews us continually in the wisdom and knowledge of Christ Jesus."

I agree. This is something else Paul said concerning the law and faith. They work in coordination with each other by the indwelling Spirit of God that gives us the capability to do His will.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31)

God bless.

Alligator · Sep 23, 2014

Alligator said:

KohenMatt said:

Yes, Christ came to fulfill the law (the Law of MOSES which He lived under), and He did that when He died on the cross. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail regarding the old Law. If we were still under the old Law, we would be required to make animal sacrifices.

cfultz3 · Sep 23, 2014

BradC said:

Yes, we are not under THE Law, we are under God's Law, which God Himself said He wrote on our hearts, the same Law Paul said he DELIGHTED in. Do you reckon we Christians walk without law? No! Then consider the Law of the Spirit.

It fulfills something. What is that something? Yes, God's Law, the Law from Christ. That being so, and we being dead to the Law of Sin and death, then we must seek what God's Law is. Has He not spoken to us about His Law. When the LORD said to be righteous, do you think when the same Lord commanded us to love, that He did not mean to be righteous before God by acts of love? Surely, we Christians are not lawless. Surely, our Father has told us what is righteous and what is evil before His eyes so that we may walk His path without offense. Can we not all delight in that Law which Paul delighted in?

But, through this faith we do not void law, we establish law. And if we all would care to take note of the word 'through (channel of an act)' we would see that it means 'the instrument used to perform an act'. So, let us ask ourselves, 'is this faith from Christ, the faith used to void law? May it never be so. Is this Christian faith used to establish law? Yes, through this faith we establish law. That being so, then let us not use this faith to render law useless, but let us establish law, and that law is God's Law.

Should we not seek that law which this faith fulfills and by which we walk righteously before our God on His righteous path?

KohenMatt · Sep 23, 2014

Alligator said:

Right, He did come to fulfill. But in the same passage He told His disciples to follow the Law and teach others to do so as well. So somehow, practical and physical obedience to the Law fits in perfectly with Jesus fulfilling the Law.

KohenMatt · Sep 23, 2014

LOANS, BUSINESS, AND THE TREATMENT OF SLAVES - Part 2 of 4

243 Exodus 20:13 - Not abducting an Israelite.
Thou shalt not kill.

244 Leviticus 19:11 - Not stealing.
Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

245 Leviticus 19:13 - Not robbing.
Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

246 Deuteronomy 19:14 - Not fraudulently altering land boundaries / landmarker.
Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it.

247 Leviticus 19:13 - Not usurping our debts and do not defraud.
Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

248 Leviticus 19:11 - Not repudiating debts, denying receipt of loan / deposit.
Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

249 Leviticus 19:11 - Not to swear falsely regarding another man's property.
Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

250 Leviticus 25:14 - Not wronging / deceiving one another in business.
And if thou sell ought unto thy neighbour, or buyest ought of thy neighbour's hand, ye shall not oppress one another:

251 Leviticus 25:17 - Not wronging / misleading one another even verbally.
Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God.

252 Exodus 22:21 - Not harming the stranger among you verbally.
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

253 Exodus 22:21 - Not injuring the stranger among you in business / trade.
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Dan_473 · Sep 23, 2014

KohenMatt said:

AGRICULTURE Final Part

220 Leviticus 25:4 - Not to cultivate the soil in the 7th year, shemittah.
But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

221 Leviticus 25:4 - Not to prune the trees in the 7th year.
But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

222 Leviticus 25:5 - Reap not self-grown plant in 7th year as ordinary year.
That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

223 Leviticus 25:5 - Gather not self-grown fruit in 7th year as ordinary year.
That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

224 Leviticus 25:11 - Not to till the earth or prune trees in Jubilee year.
A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed.

225 Leviticus 25:11 - Reap not after-growths of Jubilee year as ordinary year.
A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed.

226 Leviticus 25:11 - Not to gather fruit in Jubilee year as in ordinary year.
A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed.

227 Leviticus 25:23 - Sell not one's Eretz Yisrael land holdings permanently.
The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

228 Leviticus 25:33 - Not to sell / change the open lands of the Levites.
And if a man purchase of the Levites, then the house that was sold, and the city of his possession, shall go out in the year of jubile: for the houses of the cities of the Levites are their possession among the children of Israel.

229 Deuteronomy 12:19 - Not to leave the Levites without support.
Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon the earth.

"The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me."
to me, this says that God owns the land... fits well with Psalm 24 "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein."

Alligator · Sep 23, 2014

KohenMatt said:

Thats right. He wanted them to follow the law as long as it was in effect.

BradC · Sep 23, 2014

just-me said:

Of course we believe what has been written under the law of Moses and the prophets, it's just that we are no longer under it anymore. That which has been prophesied by the prophets concerning Christ and his first coming has been fulfilled and we believe it. Christ took away the first that he might establish the second and put away sin that was condemned by the law. The law still condemns sin but we have an advocate, Jesus Christ our righteousness. We are not under the dictates of the law because Christ has put away sin and crucified the flesh that can not keep the holy demands of the law. The law remains the same as holy, just and good but we now we have the Spirit which they did not have before under the law, who is greater and of more glory then the law.

Some of you do not believe that and that is where you have your problem. You esteem the law greater than the Holy Spirit that has been given to every believer as the earnest deposit of our inheritance along with the wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ (Eph 1:14-23). The law serves no purpose but to condemn those who transgress it, but Christ has taken away the sin that the law has condemned and buried it, never to be remembered again. When we understand the finished work that has done this through Christ, when God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself and not imputing their trespasses unto them, then we see how the law has been overruled and made inoperative by the cross and that is what the Holy Spirit reveals in the heart of man so that they can believe and be set at liberty under grace.

Many of you are not free and afraid that if you do not keep the righteousness of the law that you are not honoring God. When you do that you are not only living in unbelief as to the cross and what it has done to sin, but you are substituting your obedience to the law for what God wants to do for you though grace. You want to live by the deeds of the law instead of living and growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ. Many of you are afraid to sin by violating the law because your hearts are not established in grace. You do not understand that even when we fall we fall into the grace wherein we stand. That is being insecure about God's grace and you think you have to balance grace out by keeping the law or at least parts of it that you are able. Do you think that God is pleased and gets all happy when you keep all these things according to the law and by doing so you reject the many measures of grace that he wants to bestow on you through the Spirit, even when you fail and fall miserably as a human being because of your flesh?

cfultz3 · Sep 23, 2014

BradC said:

Of course we believe what has been written under the law of Moses and the prophets, it's just that we are no longer under it anymore. That which has been prophesied by the prophets concerning Christ and his first coming has been fulfilled and we believe it. Christ took away the first that he might establish the second and put away sin that was condemned by the law. The law still condemns sin but we have an advocate, Jesus Christ our righteousness. We are not under the dictates of the law because Christ has put away sin and crucified the flesh that can not keep the holy demands of the law. The law remains the same as holy, just and good but we now we have the Spirit which they did not have before under the law, who is greater and of more glory then the law.

Some of you do not believe that and that is where you have your problem. You esteem the law greater than the Holy Spirit that (WHO) has been given to every believer as the earnest deposit of our inheritance along with the wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ (Eph 1:14-23). The law serves no purpose but to condemn those who transgress it, but Christ has taken away the sin that the law has condemned and buried it, never to be remembered again. When we understand the finished work that has done this through Christ, when God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself and not imputing their trespasses unto them, then we see how the law has been overruled and made inoperative by the cross and that is what the Holy Spirit reveals in the heart of man so that they can believe and be set at liberty under grace.

Many of you are not free and afraid that if you do not keep the righteousness of the law that you are not honoring God. When you do that you are not only living in unbelief as to the cross and what it has done to sin, but you are substituting your obedience to the law for what God wants to do for you though grace. You want to live by the deeds of the law instead of living and growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ. Many of you are afraid to sin by violating the law because your hearts are not established in grace. You do not understand that even when we fall we fall into the grace wherein we stand. That is being insecure about God's grace and you think you have to balance grace out by keeping the law or at least parts of it that you are able. Do you think that God is pleased and gets all happy when you keep all these things according to the law and by doing so you reject the many measures of grace that he wants to bestow on you through the Spirit, even when you fail and fall miserably as a human being because of your flesh?

What does the Holy Spirit do within us? By what does He guild us with? Will you answer me about God's Law? Are we not under Christ's Law of Love which fulfills God's Law which HE HIMSELF wrote on our hearts?

Link -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/96677-what-does-law-really-say-19.html#post1701226

KohenMatt · Sep 23, 2014

Alligator said:

That's not the time frame He gave though.

The time frame was "until heaven and earth pass away."

just-me · Sep 23, 2014

BradC said:

Nowhere in scripture does it say “Christ took away the first that he might establish the second.”
All His teachings before His death were of the first. (Hebrews 9:16-17) We should be using the schoolmaster to lead others to Christ as we are extorted to fulfill the “great commission.” If we neglect it as a God given tool, we are not equipped to do our job because we don't really know what the law says if we have rejected it.

“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come , we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” (Galatians 3:24-25) Other than that, I agree with you.

BradC said:

I do not esteem the law greater than the Holy Spirit for God is a Spirit, and He gave the law. The law is not condemning when a person is no longer under it's condemnation. Again I repeat the principles of scripture that says faith in Christ establishes the law in our hearts. Christ came to change us, not His Father's words written in the law.

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say , and what I should speak.” (John 12:49)

The law is not inoperative in the least unless we seek being justified by the physical works minus faith in God.

“Christ is become of no effect unto you , whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
(Galatians 5:4)

Please do not assume that I or anybody else who esteems all of God's words as relevant is pushing our Lord to the side, trying to be justified just because we like the law of God. It's like accusing Paul falling from grace just because he worshiped and believed all things that are written in the law and the prophets.

Acts:24:14. He said of himself “But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:”

BradC said:

I do fear the Lord, but not that He's going to hammer me. He chastens His own and I respect every word He has ever spoken. Jesus quoted the law 3 times to Satan. What are you afraid of? So you say everyone who esteems the law is substituting the law in place of the cross. Wow, that's a giant step of accusation seeing that Paul did the same thing I do. It is obvious that you are unable to see the spiritual reality of all scripture. You are unable and I exhort you to receive the truth via the Holy Spirit and receive the salvation of Christ in the reality that the Father and the Son has provided. You haven't the capability to see the Spiritual aspects of the law. I feel sorry for you. May God bless you with understanding.

Romans 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

There is no division between the law and the cross but there is between the carnal mind and the spiritual mind. Let Jesus take away that enmity in your heart, mind and soul.

Alligator · Sep 23, 2014

Alligator said:

KohenMatt said:

That's not what the passage says. It says, (v. 18), until heaven and earth pass away,ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE SHALL PASS FROM THE LAW TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. It was fulfilled when Christ died on the cross (Col. 2:14).

john832 · Sep 23, 2014

Alligator said:

Uh, when was this fulfilled?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We must have missed it. Man, I really wanted to see the return.

JaumeJ · Sep 23, 2014

I believe the passage from the Word does say the law remains:

(ASV)
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

(CEV)
Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen.

Mat 5:18
because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.

(Darby)
For verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass.

(DRB)
For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

(FDB)
car, en vérité, je vous dis: Jusqu'à ce que le ciel et la terre passent, un seul iota ou un seul trait de lettre ne passera point de la loi, que tout ne soit accompli.

Alligator said:

JaumeJ · Sep 23, 2014

Correction............

(ISV)
Mat 5:18
because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.

KohenMatt · Sep 23, 2014

Alligator said:

The time frame is "until heaven and earth disappear". At that time, all will be fulfilled.

New International Version
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

New Living Translation
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

English Standard Version
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

New American Standard Bible
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

King James Bible
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

See Jaume's translations as well.

Alligator · Sep 23, 2014

Alligator said:

john832 said:

,

Again, that's not what the passage says. Read it, it says heaven and earth will not pass away until all is fulfilled. It does NOT SAY at THAT time (of the second coming) all will be fulfilled.As I already stated, Christ fulfilled it when he died on the cross Col. 2:14. See He . 8:7' Heb. 8:13; EPh. 2:14-16; HEB. 10:4.

Do you make an annual trip to Jerusalem to worship, do you offer animal sacrifices? Then you apparently are not keeping the law. Christ said "I come not to destroy, but to fulfill. If Christ didn't fulfill the law when He died on the cross, then He failed in His mission.

KohenMatt · Sep 23, 2014

Alligator said:

,

Again, that's not what the passage says. Read it, it says heaven and earth will not pass away until all is fulfilled. It does NOT SAY at THAT time (of the second coming) all will be fulfilled.As I already stated, Christ fulfilled it when he died on the cross Col. 2:14. See He . 8:7' Heb. 8:13; EPh. 2:14-16; HEB. 10:4.

Do you make an annual trip to Jerusalem to worship, do you offer animal sacrifices? Then you apparently are not keeping the law. Christ said "I come not to destroy, but to fulfill. If Christ didn't fulfill the law when He died on the cross, then He failed in His mission.

So the "until heaven and earth pass away" bit means nothing to the passage, because it's just about "everything is accomplished"?

What does the Law REALLY say?

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