What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?

[Atwood]

NewB, makes a post that has no reference to a believer who fails to get baptized. Does he think Paul would have been damned had Paul died between believing & being baptized?

really Atwood where is your understanding? are you 5 degrees below zero?

if I told you I got baptised yesterday ...you would automatically conclude I was spirit baptised because I did not mention water...there is a washing....of regeneration and there is a renewing...... of the HS

Both regeneration & renewing are done by the Spirit, not by water. It says regenerating, not resogging.

Ananias told Paul...
Acts 22:16

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized. And wash away thy sins, calling [having called] on the name of the Lord.[/QUOTE] I repunctuated your verse for you.

16 ἀναστὰς βάπτισαι. = having arisen, be baptized (arise & be baptized).
Kαὶ ἀπόλουσαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας σου ἐπικαλεσάμενος τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ. = And wash away your sins by having called on His name (And call on His name & wash away your sins in English word order.)

ἐπικαλεσάμενος = Aorist participle as indicated by the -σά aorist suffix plus the -μεν middle participle suffix. The aorist participle regularly indicates action before the main verb, literally, "having called upon His name, wash your sins away."

This is like Rom 10:13: For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, the call of faith that saves.

I take this one also as Spirit baptism, no water is mentioned. Paul was to be brought into the Church.

See the parallel passage in Acts 9


"Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name’s sake.
[Could this be said of one not water baptized; of Paul who had free will???]

17 And Ananias departed, and entered into the house; and laying his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared unto thee in the way which thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mayest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. 18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized;"

Here also no water is mentioned. Do you think that in that house there was a baptismal pool?

Do you think Paul was immediately filled with the Holy Spirit, though not yet saved because he had not been water baptized??? Or did the filling & Spirit baptism happen at the same time, immediately?

The truth remains,
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Faith in the idol of water baptism (a human work) impedes salvation.

 

[posthuman]

you change the words to suit your doctrine...it does not say washing and regeneration by the HS
[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us,(1) through the washing of regeneration and(2) renewing of the Holy Spirit,

tell me if i'm wrong here, but signing up and getting water-baptized is something "we did ourselves" -- right?

but only God by His Holy Spirit can wash, regenerate and renew us?

 

[posthuman]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

not by what we have done.
He saved us.

you ask a human and go to a human to be baptized with water.
a human baptizes you with water.
this is a human work.

God & God alone washes away our sin.
God & God alone regenerates us with new life in Christ Jesus.
God & God alone renews us through the ministration of the Holy Spirit.
these are not human works.

 

[kennethcadwell]

tell me if i'm wrong here, but signing up and getting water-baptized is something "we did ourselves" -- right?

but only God by His Holy Spirit can wash, regenerate and renew us?

Posthuman you are right that it is something we do, but it was also something that was commanded by Jesus and also He mentioned this as something that true believers will do. If you truly believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will walk as He said we should walk.

 

[Atwood]

Another post which does not address a believer who fails to get baptised:

Posthuman you are right that it is something we do, but it was also something that was commanded by Jesus and also He mentioned this as something that true believers will do. If you truly believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will walk as He said we should walk.

So Kenneth, you seem to deny what your cult-comrade claims, that the thief on the cross is off-doctrine since he lived before the resurrection, and the way of salvation changed after the cross -- thus the doctrine of how to live would be changed also, because before the cross?

But anyway Kenneth,
what will you do since you fail to walk as He walked?
He was perfect and declared,

Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Atwood]

As it was pointed out, I think by Angela, there is no such thing as an unbaptized believer, for all Christians are Spirit-baptized. Now as to un-water-baptized, so far as I know, there is no scripture stating that something negative happens to Christian who is not water-baptized. Yet to refuse to be water-baptized would come under the heading of sin, and thus a Christian who willfully refused, realizing that it was the Lord's will, should expect chastisement.

But the promises of God remain: Whosoever believeth in Him . . . not perish. And there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

It put forth the question to make the point as to how failing water-baptism is never said to be the cause of damnation in scripture. The thread has now gone on long enough to establish that the water heretics have failed to prove a theory of damnation to a believer who is not water baptized, whether by accident of life, by not enough water being on hand, by not enough time on a death-bed, or any other situation, including willful sin.

The absurd claim was made that devils fit the definition of unbaptized believers. Give us a break.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Another post which does not address a believer who fails to get baptised:



So Kenneth, you seem to deny what your cult-comrade claims, that the thief on the cross is off-doctrine since he lived before the resurrection, and the way of salvation changed after the cross -- thus the doctrine of how to live would be changed also, because before the cross?

But anyway Kenneth,
what will you do since you fail to walk as He walked?
He was perfect and declared,

Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Yes we will be perfect, but we are not perfect right away. We are molded as we walk the path following Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior to become perfect.

Jesus says baptism has to be done to fulfill all righteousness. ( Matthew 3:15 )
He commanded it in the great commission ( Matthew 28:19 )
He also said it as a part of those who are saved. ( Mark 16:16 )

Jesus says if you believe in Him as your Lord you will do as He said, and do the will of the Father;

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother


Now concerning those who past away before Jesus died on the cross, the bible answers that question for us;

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

All those who passed before the new covenant was initiated by our Lord's death on the cross was baptized into Moses.
So when you go by all this, if you deny to do what Jesus said to do, then you are denying Him.

What happens to those who deny Him ? ( Lets see what the bible says )

Matthew 10:32-33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[newbirth]

NewB, makes a post that has no reference to a believer who fails to get baptized. Does he think Paul would have been damned had Paul died between believing & being baptized?



Both regeneration & renewing are done by the Spirit, not by water. It says regenerating, not resogging.

Ananias told Paul...
Acts 22:16

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized. And wash away thy sins, calling [having called] on the name of the Lord.

I repunctuated your verse for you.

16 ἀναστὰς βάπτισαι. = having arisen, be baptized (arise & be baptized).
Kαὶ ἀπόλουσαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας σου ἐπικαλεσάμενος τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ. = And wash away your sins by having called on His name (And call on His name & wash away your sins in English word order.)

ἐπικαλεσάμενος = Aorist participle as indicated by the -σά aorist suffix plus the -μεν middle participle suffix. The aorist participle regularly indicates action before the main verb, literally, "having called upon His name, wash your sins away."

This is like Rom 10:13: For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, the call of faith that saves.

I take this one also as Spirit baptism, no water is mentioned. Paul was to be brought into the Church.

See the parallel passage in Acts 9


"Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name’s sake.
[Could this be said of one not water baptized; of Paul who had free will???]

17 And Ananias departed, and entered into the house; and laying his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared unto thee in the way which thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mayest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. 18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized;"

Here also no water is mentioned. Do you think that in that house there was a baptismal pool?

Do you think Paul was immediately filled with the Holy Spirit, though not yet saved because he had not been water baptized??? Or did the filling & Spirit baptism happen at the same time, immediately?

The truth remains,
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Faith in the idol of water baptism (a human work) impedes salvation.[/QUOTE]

like I said if you don't see the word water so no baptism if you do not see the word save so no salvation...I hope you go nowhere close to live wires because you can't see electricity... You study the word in your own wisdom and intellect and not through the guidance of the Holy Spirit...you trust your pink hi- lighter and your degrees rather than God...

 

[watty]

If a man believes in the Lord Jesus, trusts the Lord Jesus as His Savior, but he does not get water baptized, what happens to him? Does he go to hell? Bible proof?

Such a simple answer to this question. Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him that he was saved. No baptism could have taken place for him. Nobody was going to take him down from the cross and baptize him. Baptism is a commandment just like to assemble and worship with the saints, taking of communion. If a person is not able to assemble and take communion due to health reasons, don't you think God knows that, and will judge accordingly?

 

[posthuman]

Y

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

that's interesting. none of the Israelites got wet when they crossed the Red Sea, following God out of Egypt, and none of the Israelites got wet when they entered the covenant while the glory of God rested on the mountain.

so here's the scripture talking about something entirely different than being dunked in a mikveh, yet calling it "baptism"



maybe there is something to the statement that 'there are no unbaptized believers'

 

[kennethcadwell]

that's interesting. none of the Israelites got wet when they crossed the Red Sea, following God out of Egypt, and none of the Israelites got wet when they entered the covenant while the glory of God rested on the mountain.

so here's the scripture talking about something entirely different than being dunked in a mikveh, yet calling it "baptism"



maybe there is something to the statement that 'there are no unbaptized believers'

This is not speaking of a physical baptism as we think of it, for the physical baptism was not commanded tell us.
In the OT it gave us symbolism of things to come which I will show, but in the scripture I gave 1 Cor. 10:1-2 those who died before the cross were baptized into Moses under the cloud ( symbolism of spiritual ) and in the sea ( symbolism of water ).

Their baptism happened, but different than what we were commanded in the new covenant.
Now for some of the symbolism in the OT;

Exodus 19:10-11
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.


Exodus 29:4
And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.


Now even the NT talks about those of past also;

Hebrews 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

 

[newbirth]

tell me if i'm wrong here, but signing up and getting water-baptized is something "we did ourselves" -- right?

but only God by His Holy Spirit can wash, regenerate and renew us?

same as Naaman we do nothing but believe and obey...God does the working...same with the loaves and fishes...the blind man and the spit....Peter walking on water...Christ did not have to be baptised and no one had to witness the spirit coming upon him...but it is a testimony for us as we are baptised into his death we are assured that his spirit will dwell in us...the scripture says the corrupt nature is cut off in baptism....nowhere does the scripture suggest spirit baptism has anything to do with death.....However water baptism is the point where we put of the old man...The scripture says that we are saved by the washing of regeneration. It is God who does the regenerating and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Colossians 2:11-13American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;





American Standard Version

not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

so the question if you are not water baptised...when did the circumcision without hands happen as were you buried with him in baptism and risen with him through the faith of the operation of God

 

[kennethcadwell]

same as Naaman we do nothing but believe and obey...God does the working...same with the loaves and fishes...the blind man and the spit....Peter walking on water...Christ did not have to be baptised and no one had to witness the spirit coming upon him...but it is a testimony for us as we are baptised into his death we are assured that his spirit will dwell in us...the scripture says the corrupt nature is cut off in baptism....nowhere does the scripture suggest spirit baptism has anything to do with death.....However water baptism is the point where we put of the old man...The scripture says that we are saved by the washing of regeneration. It is God who does the regenerating and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Colossians 2:11-13American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;





American Standard Version

not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

so the question if you are not water baptised...when did the circumcision without hands happen as were you buried with him in baptism and risen with him through the faith of the operation of God

You said Christ did not have to be baptized, but what did our Lord Jesus Christ say;

Matthew 3:14-15
[SUP] [/SUP]But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
[SUP] [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

He says it has to be done to fulfill all righteousness.

 

[newbirth]

NewB, makes a post that has no reference to a believer who fails to get baptized. Does he think Paul would have been damned had Paul died between believing & being baptized?

If that is the way you think then how can you believe God can save you....that is foolish thinking...God able...you don't believe God has the power to use the point of water baptism to regenerate you... Naaman couldn't believe by dipping in the Jordan he could be cleansed either....

 

[TruthisPower]

Tell me what are the requirements to be saved, what work can you do to be saved? if we can get saved by works, then why wasn't the law enough to do the job?

For one to be saved is to do the will of God, Faith with out works is dead, God's good new of the kingdom is supposed to be preached, that is considered works

To the OP the same thing that happened to the thief on the cross or did Jesus lie?

The thief did not go into heaven at all, bible denotes anyone not born again which is baptism cannot see heaven NO BUTS read the scripture. (John 3:3) In response Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

John 3

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
No head dunking mentioned or is it a lie?

Baptizing is for the dedication to God and has some benefits. People that do not get baptize still have hope in the future, like Moses, John the baptist, Abraham, they were never baptize and they will never go to heaven

Everyone that God deems righteous that now lives or that has lived before on this earth, Not all will go into the Kingdom of Heaven. Not everyone here, will get in heaven either, and some will reside here on earth.Those who benefit from that ministry include the great crowd that have the prospect of surviving the great tribulation and enjoying eternal life on a paradise earth. Because of their faith in the sin atoning value of Jesus sacrifice, they too, come to have a clean standing before God. 1Jo 2:2; Re 7:9, 14

People need to see that there are TWO homes or dwelling places for people, where righteous humans are to go
(2 Peter 3:13) But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

"Did you see", these are "two places" where we are going to live, for some its Heaven and some is for Earth

You can look at Baptism in two different ways one is a dedication to God and the other one whom God deems fit to be born again and only for people that get to go into Heaven. As to the identification of the Paradise of which Jesus spoke, it is clearly not synonymous with the heavenly Kingdom of Christ. Earlier that day entry into that heavenly Kingdom had been held back as a prospect for Jesus faithful disciples but on the basis of their having stuck with him in his trials, something the evildoer had never done, him dieing alongside Jesus being purely for his own criminal acts. (Lu 22:28-30; 23:40, 41)

The evildoer obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was a prerequisite to entry into the Kingdom of the heavens. (Joh 3:3-6) Nor was the evildoer one of the "conquerors" that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in “the first resurrection.” Re 3:11, 12, 21; 12:10, 11; 14:1-4; 20:4-6.

So the evildoer will be resurrected on Earth the last day, not in heaven. Paradise mean garden or park

(Ecclesiastes 2:5) I made gardens and parks for myself, and I planted in them all sorts of fruit trees.
(Song of Solomon 4:13) Your shoots are a paradise of pomegranates With the choicest fruits, with henna along with spikenard plants,

 

[kennethcadwell]

For one to be saved is to do the will of God, Faith with out works is dead, God's good new of the kingdom is supposed to be preached, that is considered works



The thief did not go into heaven at all, bible denotes anyone not born again which is baptism cannot see heaven NO BUTS read the scripture. (John 3:3) In response Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”




Baptizing is for the dedication to God and has some benefits. People that do not get baptize still have hope in the future, like Moses, John the baptist, Abraham, they were never baptize and they will never go to heaven

Everyone that God deems righteous that now lives or that has lived before on this earth, Not all will go into the Kingdom of Heaven. Not everyone here, will get in heaven either, and some will reside here on earth.Those who benefit from that ministry include the great crowd that have the prospect of surviving the great tribulation and enjoying eternal life on a paradise earth. Because of their faith in the sin atoning value of Jesus sacrifice, they too, come to have a clean standing before God. 1Jo 2:2; Re 7:9, 14

People need to see that there are TWO homes or dwelling places for people, where righteous humans are to go
(2 Peter 3:13) But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

"Did you see", these are "two places" where we are going to live, for some its Heaven and some is for Earth

You can look at Baptism in two different ways one is a dedication to God and the other one whom God deems fit to be born again and only for people that get to go into Heaven. As to the identification of the Paradise of which Jesus spoke, it is clearly not synonymous with the heavenly Kingdom of Christ. Earlier that day entry into that heavenly Kingdom had been held back as a prospect for Jesus faithful disciples but on the basis of their having stuck with him in his trials, something the evildoer had never done, him dieing alongside Jesus being purely for his own criminal acts. (Lu 22:28-30; 23:40, 41)

The evildoer obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was a prerequisite to entry into the Kingdom of the heavens. (Joh 3:3-6) Nor was the evildoer one of the "conquerors" that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in “the first resurrection.” Re 3:11, 12, 21; 12:10, 11; 14:1-4; 20:4-6.

So the evildoer will be resurrected on Earth the last day, not in heaven. Paradise mean garden or park

(Ecclesiastes 2:5) I made gardens and parks for myself, and I planted in them all sorts of fruit trees.
(Song of Solomon 4:13) Your shoots are a paradise of pomegranates With the choicest fruits, with henna along with spikenard plants,

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

 

[TruthisPower]

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

Jehovah, whom no man can see and yet live, symbolizes his presence by a cloud. At Mount Sinai, at the time of giving the Law to Israel, a dark cloud covered the mountain; out of the cloud came lightnings and thunder, the blare of a trumpet, and a loud voice. (Ex 19:16-19; 24:15; Heb 12:18, 19) Jehovah told Moses that he appeared in this manner in order that he might speak to Moses and that, on hearing it, the people might put faith in Moses as God’s representative. Ex 19:9.

Jehovah sent an angel in a cloud as his own personal messenger to lead Israel out of Egypt and through the wilderness. (Isa 63:9) By means of the angel, God representatively looked out of the cloud to throw the camp of the Egyptians into confusion. (Ex 13:21, 22; 14:19, 24, 25) God also used the cloud to baptize them as a nation into Moses, the waters being at the sides of them and the cloud above and behind. Thus they were baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea.

(1 Corinthians 10:2) and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea,
(Numbers 14:14) and they will speak about it to the inhabitants of this land. These also have heard that you, Jehovah, are among this people and have appeared to them face-to-face. You are Jehovah, and your cloud is standing over them, and you are going before them in the pillar of cloud by day and in the pillar of fire by night.

That a congregation of people can, so to speak, be baptized or immersed into a liberator and leader is illustrated by the apostle Paul when he describes the congregation of Israel as being “baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea.” There they were covered with a protecting cloud and with the walls of water on each side of them, being, symbolically speaking, immersed. Moses foretold that God would raise up a prophet like himself; Peter applied this prophecy to Jesus Christ.

(1 Corinthians 10:1, 2) Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea 2 and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea,

(Deuteronomy 18:15-19) Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Ho′reb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

(Acts 3:19-23) “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’

It does not relate that baptism to the one in John 3:3 for they never knew christ. And were not born Again. In the name of the father ,son and holy ghost.

 

[posthuman]

bible denotes anyone not born again which is baptism cannot see heaven NO BUTS read the scripture.

if "born again = baptism"
then it is of the Spirit, not H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, because this is how we must be born again.

 

[TruthisPower]

if "born again = baptism"
then it is of the Spirit, not H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, because this is how we must be born again.

(John 3:5) Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God

 

[kennethcadwell]

Jehovah, whom no man can see and yet live, symbolizes his presence by a cloud. At Mount Sinai, at the time of giving the Law to Israel, a dark cloud covered the mountain; out of the cloud came lightnings and thunder, the blare of a trumpet, and a loud voice. (Ex 19:16-19; 24:15; Heb 12:18, 19) Jehovah told Moses that he appeared in this manner in order that he might speak to Moses and that, on hearing it, the people might put faith in Moses as God’s representative. Ex 19:9.

Jehovah sent an angel in a cloud as his own personal messenger to lead Israel out of Egypt and through the wilderness. (Isa 63:9) By means of the angel, God representatively looked out of the cloud to throw the camp of the Egyptians into confusion. (Ex 13:21, 22; 14:19, 24, 25) God also used the cloud to baptize them as a nation into Moses, the waters being at the sides of them and the cloud above and behind. Thus they were baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea.

(1 Corinthians 10:2) and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea,
(Numbers 14:14) and they will speak about it to the inhabitants of this land. These also have heard that you, Jehovah, are among this people and have appeared to them face-to-face. You are Jehovah, and your cloud is standing over them, and you are going before them in the pillar of cloud by day and in the pillar of fire by night.

That a congregation of people can, so to speak, be baptized or immersed into a liberator and leader is illustrated by the apostle Paul when he describes the congregation of Israel as being “baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea.” There they were covered with a protecting cloud and with the walls of water on each side of them, being, symbolically speaking, immersed. Moses foretold that God would raise up a prophet like himself; Peter applied this prophecy to Jesus Christ.

(1 Corinthians 10:1, 2) Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea 2 and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea,

(Deuteronomy 18:15-19) Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Ho′reb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

(Acts 3:19-23) “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’

It does not relate that baptism to the one in John 3:3 for they never knew christ. And were not born Again. In the name of the father ,son and holy ghost.

It was symbolic for baptism, and showed that all who came before were baptized. You said they were not, so will not enter heaven. That is not true, Moses will rise and meet us in the air along with everybody else who is right now dead in Christ and now and in future live for Christ.

Plus you have this symbolism in the bible that referred to the new covenant being dedicated by blood and water.


Hebrews 9:18-20

Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.