What happens to our souls when we die?

[babyboyblue]

The bible teaches that all men die (Heb 9:27). It says there is no one in heaven except for Jesus Christ (John 3:13). If Elijah went to heaven before Christ paid the price for sin, then any man could get to heaven without Christ, and Christ's ultimate sacrifice was not necessary. Elijah was carried into the sky to signify the transfer of power to Elisha. The same place the birds of "heaven" fly. He was transported, much as Phillip was transported in Acts 8:39.

I know this is contrary to traditional orthodox Christian thinking, but it's the truth. Dead people are dead, and will remain dead until one of the upcoming resurrections. If we die before Christ returns, our hope is the coming resurrection. Death is an enemy. It is not a "crossing over".

If Moses and Elijah didn't go to Heaven, how were they able to appear to Jesus in the Transfiguration and bring him encouragement? We don't know where Philip went. The scripture says that Spirit took him, and the Eunuch saw him no more, but he (Philip) was later found in another city.

Moses, Elijah both went to heaven under unusual circumstances and under the old covenant. Remember these were all shadows of the things to come, the fullness of which is in Christ. Remember the temple, sanctuary in the old testament? The Days of Atonement? Feast of Tabernacles? Sacrificing Lambs? All these represented Christ. That's how they made it. And let's not forget Enoch. The Bible actually says God took him. Not that he died, but he was taken away by God. Again, unusual circumstances.

The average person dies and stays in the grave until one of the resurrections as you pointed out. Their spirit which is the breath of Life goes back to the Creator who gave it. The breath of life has no conscience, no brain, no intelligence in and of itself.

 

[shroom2]

If Moses and Elijah didn't go to Heaven, how were they able to appear to Jesus in the Transfiguration and bring him encouragement? We don't know where Philip went. The scripture says that Spirit took him, and the Eunuch saw him no more, but he (Philip) was later found in another city.

Moses, Elijah both went to heaven under unusual circumstances and under the old covenant. Remember these were all shadows of the things to come, the fullness of which is in Christ. Remember the temple, sanctuary in the old testament? The Days of Atonement? Feast of Tabernacles? Sacrificing Lambs? All these represented Christ. That's how they made it. And let's not forget Enoch. The Bible actually says God took him. Not that he died, but he was taken away by God. Again, unusual circumstances.

That is not what the bible says. It says no man is in heaven except Christ. The transfiguration was a vision, as Jesus plainly said in Matthew.

The average person dies and stays in the grave until one of the resurrections as you pointed out. Their spirit which is the breath of Life goes back to the Creator who gave it. The breath of life has no conscience, no brain, no intelligence in and of itself.

God is no respecter of persons. There are not "special people" in heaven while "ordinary"people are waiting in the grave. Dead people are dead, for now.

 

[babyboyblue]

That is not what the bible says. It says no man is in heaven except Christ. The transfiguration was a vision, as Jesus plainly said in Matthew.


God is no respecter of persons. There are not "special people" in heaven while "ordinary"people are waiting in the grave. Dead people are dead, for now.

Jesus was talking with Moses and Elijah and as you well know, you cannot talk to the dead.. I've never heard of a vision that changed the physical appearance of anyone. As they came down Jesus told His deciples not to tell anyone of what they saw.

God is no respecter of men when it comes to salvation.

 

[babyboyblue]

That is not what the bible says. It says no man is in heaven except Christ.

Incidentally, in John 3 Jesus said: *"13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Notice He Himself is chatting with nicodemus but he says "the son of man which IS IN Heaven." that's present tense. The Bible uses the term Son of Man many times to reference regular men.

 

[2knowhim]

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


The way I understand these scriptures is, that our body/soul returns
unto the dust, the new man is already in the heavens, IN Christ.
For he that is joined unto the Lord is One spirit.

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Notice it does'nt say the soul, but our spirit, the part of us that is born again.

 

[shroom2]

Jesus was talking with Moses and Elijah and as you well know, you cannot talk to the dead.. I've never heard of a vision that changed the physical appearance of anyone. As they came down Jesus told His deciples not to tell anyone of what they saw.

Matt 17:9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

God is no respecter of men when it comes to salvation.

Right. And if Moses and Elijah are saved and already in heaven, that would make God a respecter of persons.

 

[shroom2]

Incidentally, in John 3 Jesus said: *"13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Notice He Himself is chatting with nicodemus but he says "the son of man which IS IN Heaven." that's present tense. The Bible uses the term Son of Man many times to reference regular men.

Sometimes, yes. Which "Son of man" do you think that was referring to?
Jesus did not say that, John, the narrator, did. I believe "Son of man" here means Jesus Christ. How could Jesus be in heaven if he was standing there talking to them?

 

[babyboyblue]

Matt 17:9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Mark 9
9And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Right. And if Moses and Elijah are saved and already in heaven, that would make God a respecter of persons.

No it does not. It simple shows that God the Master and capable of doing all things.

 

[shroom2]

Mark 9
9And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Yes. They saw a vision. Just as Peter saw a vision in Acts 10. It wasn't real.

No it does not. It simple shows that God the Master and capable of doing all things.

God cannot contradict His word, and the bible says dead people are dead, they cannot praise God, and they know nothing.

 

[Red33]

The bible teaches that all men die (Heb 9:27). It says there is no one in heaven except for Jesus Christ (John 3:13). If Elijah went to heaven before Christ paid the price for sin, then any man could get to heaven without Christ, and Christ's ultimate sacrifice was not necessary. Elijah was carried into the sky to signify the transfer of power to Elisha. The same place the birds of "heaven" fly. He was transported, much as Phillip was transported in Acts 8:39.

I know this is contrary to traditional orthodox Christian thinking, but it's the truth. Dead people are dead, and will remain dead until one of the upcoming resurrections. If we die before Christ returns, our hope is the coming resurrection. Death is an enemy. It is not a "crossing over".

Philip has no chariot of fire nor does it say that Philip went into heaven, but with Elijah, he was taken into heaven by a whirlwind in a chariot of fire and witnessed by Elisha and (50) sons of the prophets (2Kgs 2:1-15). You can't get around that and try to spiritualize something that took place literally before the eyes of (51) witnesses. They would tell you that you are full of something other than the truth. If Elijah was translated into the sky, where is he, is he still in the sky with all those birds of the air? If he died, where is the record of his death or of his buried bones like there was of Elisha's who received a double portion (2Kgs 13:20,21) BTW - Do you have an explanation about what happened to the dead man that touched the bones of Elisha who had died in (v.21). It would appear that Elisha's bone had some kind of resurrection life to be able to revive a dead man. God revives a dead man through the bones of Elisha and a young boy through the stretched out body of Elijah in (1Kgs 17:20-24)...

20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying (put to death) her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

Notice in (v.21,22) that the soul (nephesh) had been separated from the body and then came back into him (his body) again. The soul had left the body of the child and came back into his body. Elijah's specific request was that the child's soul would come back into him again. You believe that the soul and body are inseparable and here we have a separation taking place through the testimony of the scriptures. Elijah was a man of God and do you think he got it wrong in his understanding about the soul leaving the body when he asked God to return it? God answered his request and returned the soul to the child's body. How are you going to rationalize this one and how are you going to discredit the testimony of the child's mother in (v.24)?

 

[shroom2]

Philip has no chariot of fire nor does it say that Philip went into heaven, but with Elijah, he was taken into heaven by a whirlwind in a chariot of fire and witnessed by Elisha and (50) sons of the prophets (2Kgs 2:1-15). You can't get around that and try to spiritualize something that took place literally before the eyes of (51) witnesses. They would tell you that you are full of something other than the truth. If Elijah was translated into the sky, where is he, is he still in the sky with all those birds of the air? If he died, where is the record of his death or of his buried bones like there was of Elisha's who received a double portion (2Kgs 13:20,21) BTW - Do you have an explanation about what happened to the dead man that touched the bones of Elisha who had died in (v.21). It would appear that Elisha's bone had some kind of resurrection life to be able to revive a dead man. God revives a dead man through the bones of Elisha and a young boy through the stretched out body of Elijah in (1Kgs 17:20-24)...

20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying (put to death) her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

Notice in (v.21,22) that the soul (nephesh) had been separated from the body and then came back into him (his body) again. The soul had left the body of the child and came back into his body. Elijah's specific request was that the child's soul would come back into him again. You believe that the soul and body are inseparable and here we have a separation taking place through the testimony of the scriptures.

It does not say the soul was separated. It was gone. To raise the child from the dead the soul had to come to him again.

People do not separate into various parts when they die, with some parts dying and some parts living on. When a person dies, he is dead.

Elijah was a man of God and do you think he got it wrong in his understanding about the soul leaving the body when he asked God to return it? God answered his request and returned the soul to the child's body. How are you going to rationalize this one and how are you going to discredit the testimony of the child's mother in (v.24)?

The child was raised from the dead. His soul (that which gives life to the body) was gone, and came to him again.

The concept of an "eternal soul" is religion, and is not biblical. The devil wants people to think that death is not that bad, so he plants all these ideas that when you die, you don't really die, but part of you lives on, and goes to be with God. It's a lie, just as his statement in Gen 3 "ye shall not surely die" was a lie.

Death is the end of life, until God raises people from the dead at the upcoming resurrections.

 

[superdave5221]

The concept of an "eternal soul" is religion, and is not biblical. The devil wants people to think that death is not that bad, so he plants all these ideas that when you die, you don't really die, but part of you lives on, and goes to be with God. It's a lie, just as his statement in Gen 3 "ye shall not surely die" was a lie.

You are correct, the soul is not eternal, in the sense that it has always existed and always will. I don't know about everyone else, but I have never claimed this.

The human soul was created in Genesis 1, and then the human body was created in Genesis 2. Why were they created separately if they cannot exist apart from each other.

The human soul is not eternal, and can be destroyed by God at any time He wishes. My contention is that Satan's control over us because of sin, is limited to our bodies, and does not extend to our souls.

Jesus clearly distinguishes between them in the following:

Matthew 10: 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The above should be clearly evident.

 

[Red33]

When rationalization rejects or takes truth away from the scriptures, that is unbelief with the risk of having their part taken away from the tree of life. When a man dies the spirit and soul is separated from the body. The body goes into the grave and is eaten by the worms. If the person's soul has not been redeemed by the blood of Christ (the wicked dead), that soul goes to hell, suffering torment, waiting for the final judgment. If the soul has been redeemed (the righteous dead), that soul is absent from the body and goes directly to heaven to be with Christ. The human spirit of both, one that is made alive through the word and the Holy Spirit and the other that was dormant without life, goes back to God who gave it.

The righteous dead is waiting to be raised up in the first resurrection for the redemption of their body that will put on immortality and incorruption and will enter into the joy of the Lord forever. The body of the wicked dead will be raised up at the second resurrection to be judged at the white throne judgment and cast into the lake of fire where the fire is never quenched, where the worm dieth not and where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The body and soul of the righteous dead will have redemption, immortality and eternal life with Christ and the body and soul of the wicked dead will have no redemption, but through eternal damnation will live in everlasting torment being cast into the lake of fire, that burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. They will be alive in their soul and body and will experience these torments forever.

 

[shroom2]

You are correct, the soul is not eternal, in the sense that it has always existed and always will. I don't know about everyone else, but I have never claimed this.

The human soul was created in Genesis 1, and then the human body was created in Genesis 2. Why were they created separately if they cannot exist apart from each other.

They were not created separately. Genesis 2 expounds on Genesis 1. Man was not created in two separate events.

The human soul is not eternal, and can be destroyed by God at any time He wishes.

God does not kill people, especially Christians whom He loves.

My contention is that Satan's control over us because of sin, is limited to our bodies, and does not extend to our souls.

Jesus clearly distinguishes between them in the following:

Matthew 10: 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The above should be clearly evident.

Soul here refers to the person himself, as it does in several other places in scripture.

=========================================
Matthew 10:28 (Kill the body, not the soul)

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna].
​

If nothing else, this verse clearly shows that the soul is not immortal, because it can be destroyed, but let us look at the verse more closely. The context is Jesus Christ instructing his twelve apostles before sending them out to preach the gospel of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 10:5 and 6). What he tells them in verse 28 is not to fear men inspired by the Devil, who may kill them, but who can do nothing more to them after that. The following parallel passage helps us understand the above verse.

Luke 12:4 and 5
(4) And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
(5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell [gehenna]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
​

In context, verse five refers to the time of judgment of the unjust. It is God whom Jesus wanted his apostles to fear (which in essence is to respect) and to obey more than they would men who might threaten or even kill them. It is God (by way of giving Jesus Christ the authority to judge) who will judge all men and who can also “destroy” them forever in the lake of fire.
============================================
The above is from here:
Truth Or Tradition - Do Christians [people] go straight to Heaven if they die? Difficult Bible verses

 

[shroom2]

When rationalization rejects or takes truth away from the scriptures, that is unbelief with the risk of having their part taken away from the tree of life. When a man dies the spirit and soul is separated from the body. The body goes into the grave and is eaten by the worms. If the person's soul has not been redeemed by the blood of Christ (the wicked dead), that soul goes to hell, suffering torment, waiting for the final judgment. If the soul has been redeemed (the righteous dead), that soul is absent from the body and goes directly to heaven to be with Christ. The human spirit of both, one that is made alive through the word and the Holy Spirit and the other that was dormant without life, goes back to God who gave it.

The righteous dead is waiting to be raised up in the first resurrection for the redemption of their body that will put on immortality and incorruption and will enter into the joy of the Lord forever. The body of the wicked dead will be raised up at the second resurrection to be judged at the white throne judgment and cast into the lake of fire where the fire is never quenched, where the worm dieth not and where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The body and soul of the righteous dead will have redemption, immortality and eternal life with Christ and the body and soul of the wicked dead will have no redemption, but through eternal damnation will live in everlasting torment being cast into the lake of fire, that burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. They will be alive in their soul and body and will experience these torments forever.

That is the traditional Christian understanding. According to the bible it's not right.

God's word plainly teaches that dead people are dead, and know nothing. Dead believers will be raised in the future.

And God is just. There is no crime or sin worthy of eternal torment. Those found unrighteous will be tossed into the lake of fire and destroyed. The second death, which will be permanent. They will be gone forever. Even the devil himself will be burned up.

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[2knowhim]

Originally Posted by superdave5221

You are correct, the soul is not eternal, in the sense that it has always existed and always will. I don't know about everyone else, but I have never claimed this.

I don't mean to knit pick, but yeah ya did. Post #34

 

[Red33]

That is the traditional Christian understanding. According to the bible it's not right.

God's word plainly teaches that dead people are dead, and know nothing. Dead believers will be raised in the future.

And God is just. There is no crime or sin worthy of eternal torment. Those found unrighteous will be tossed into the lake of fire and destroyed. The second death, which will be permanent. They will be gone forever. Even the devil himself will be burned up.

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Where you and so many make a mistake is relating eternal damnation and the lake of fire to sin when it has nothing to do with sin because Christ was judged for all sin. Eternal damnation involves iniquity and the work of iniquity that is producing evil in the present world system. This evil and unfruitful work is the mystery of iniquity that comes from the many labours and strivings of evil (poneros), through the love of money, through the many forms of lust, through the untamed tongue and through the evil heart of unbelief that is deceitful and desperately wicked. and through the god of this world system that has deceived the nations and blinded the minds of those that believe not.

 

[superdave5221]

Originally Posted by superdave5221

You are correct, the soul is not eternal, in the sense that it has always existed and always will. I don't know about everyone else, but I have never claimed this.

I don't mean to knit pick, but yeah ya did. Post #34

For whatever reason, you are nitpiking, and you are wrong.

My meaning in #34 is that the soul lives on after death, not that it is eternal.

In #29 I clearly stated what I meant by eternal, which is "not created, and always existing".

That is part of the problem here is that people have different interpretations of what eternal means. Eternal means that it existed outside of time. Nothing that was created existed outside of time.

The fact that those in Christ will never die does not mean eternal, for they do not exist outside of time, and they were created.

 

[shroom2]

Where you and so many make a mistake is relating eternal damnation and the lake of fire to sin when it has nothing to do with sin because Christ was judged for all sin. Eternal damnation involves iniquity and the work of iniquity that is producing evil in the present world system. This evil and unfruitful work is the mystery of iniquity that comes from the many labours and strivings of evil (poneros), through the love of money, through the many forms of lust, through the untamed tongue and through the evil heart of unbelief that is deceitful and desperately wicked. and through the god of this world system that has deceived the nations and blinded the minds of those that believe not.

...and all those you described will be destroyed, they will die the second death.

 

[2knowhim]

Yes Ananda, and in verse 26 of John 11, that although the body dies, the soul lives and does not die. Very good scripture choice.

Then if you didn't mean eternal, then my apology, I misunderstood
what you said.

And I agree Eternal has no begining and no end.

But I still disagree with the soul living on.

Blessings