what has been fulfilled?

[Ahwatukee]

you know paul had a special ministry to the jews.

1 Corinthians 9:20; "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the Law, as under the Law, that I might gain them that are under the Law."

Paul did not have a special ministry to only the Jews. You just pulled part out the part of the scripture that mentions the Jews. Here is the full scripture:

"Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

As you can see, the gist of the scripture is that Paul became like different types of groups in order to win them to Christ. But if you pull out just the part out that refers to the Jews and leave the rest of the scripture out, then it could look like a special ministry to the Jews.

 

[zone]

I have no problem if God wants to return that to them if they repent, and realie, They are saved because of their messiah and him alone, Not because of any temple anything.

Does that make sense?

no doubt He would be saving them in spite of all that.
paul being so opposed to observances (like circumcision) for gentiles, as even that could be enough to actually severe them from Grace makes a scary point about the delicate balancing act he must have managed to preach to both peoples

 

[eternally-gratefull]

look how far gone things are getting EG:

Catholics shouldn’t try to convert Jews, says new Vatican document
Catholics shouldn’t try to convert Jews, says new Vatican document | Religion News Service

ELCA and some others have issued official positions saying the same.
how terribly awful.

Catholics have a history of antisemitism. If memory serves me right, They slaughtered many of them in their early years. In fact, Hitler was influenced by the antisemitism which came out of the roman church.

I believe they will get theirs one day. God promised he would punish them severely (not them but anyone who did what they have done)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul did not have a special ministry to only the Jews. You just pulled part out the part of the scripture that mentions the Jews. Here is the full scripture:

"Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

As you can see, the gist of the scripture is that Paul became like different types of groups in order to win them to Christ. But if you pull out just the part out that refers to the Jews and leave the rest of the scripture out, then it could look like a special ministry to the Jews.

I believe Paul had a heart for his people. Romans 9 and 11 prove this. So yes, I believe he did have a special ministry to them, even though his main purpose was to gentiles.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no doubt He would be saving them in spite of all that.
paul being so opposed to observances (like circumcision) for gentiles, as even that could be enough to actually severe them from Grace makes a scary point about the delicate balancing act he must have managed to preach to both peoples

I do not think he had anything against circumcision. He was against those preaching it as a means to eternal life. And I know you and I are the same way when it comes to these things.

He even had one of his gentile leaders get circumcised so as to not offend jews..

its all sad that we have to be this way, I agree..

it is no different than water baptism today. Just less painful..lol (and a woman can do it)

 

[zone]

Paul did not have a special ministry to only the Jews. You just pulled part out the part of the scripture that mentions the Jews. Here is the full scripture:

"Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

As you can see, the gist of the scripture is that Paul became like different types of groups in order to win them to Christ. But if you pull out just the part out that refers to the Jews and leave the rest of the scripture out, then it could look like a special ministry to the Jews.

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

 

[Ahwatukee]

so jews need to be following the law today? how will that make them more saved or even saved?

Good day EG,

It is not that the Jews need to be following the law today, but because they did not receive Christ as their Messiah, they are still waiting for him to appear for the first time. That being the case, as far as they are concerned, the are sill under the law given to Moses.

Israel is in this position because of the decree given upon them of seventy seven year periods. Sixty-nine of those seventy sevens were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut of, Christ crucified. At that time God paused that last seven years for a future fulfillment to end the age and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather His church, which will be followed by that ruler, the antichrist establishing his seven year covenant with Israel. It is during this time that God will take up where He left off with Israel, temple sacrifices and all, in fulfillment of that last seven years.

Regarding animal sacrifices during the millennium, though I know that Christ paid the penalty for sins by the shedding of His blood, I must also consider the rest of the word of God, namely Ezekiel 40 thru 48. These chapters are specifically regarding a temple whose dimensions do not match any of the previous temples, nor does it fit the dimensions of the new Jerusalem. Therefore, the only time that this temple could be referring to as existing would be the millennial period. That said, within those chapters the dimensions of the temple are given in detail, as well as instructions for sacrificing and the rooms for preparing the sacrifices, as well as the priests rooms. It also gives the land allotments, from where to where, for each of the twelve tribes, which is nothing like the allotments that they were given in the old testament.

The reason for sacrificing during the millennial period, I have no answer for. All that I do know is that, scripture gives a detailed account of a temple that does not match Solomon's or any other rebuilt temple, nor of the new Jerusalem, which is not a temple, but a city. And since we have not seen this temple with these dimensions any time in history, the only place that it could come about is during the millennial period. Read Ezk.40 thru 48 and you will see what I am talking about. It is completely different than Solomon's temple or any of the rebuilt versions.

The only thing that I have ever heard regarding this is that, many scholars believe that the sacrifices during the millennial period, based on those chapters in Ezekiel, will be done as a memorial. The fact is that, because of the information written in Ezekiel regarding this temple, I consider the possibility that there will be animal sacrifices during the millennium.

 

[zone]

oh what blasphemy

 

[zone]

Ezekiel's temple:

The following chapters describe various sacrificial rituals performed by priests. Special attention is given to the role of one who is referred to as “the prince.” Near the end, a river is seen flowing out of the temple from under the threshold. The book closes with portions of the land assigned to various tribes.

....

As with the descriptions in Exodus of the tabernacle and its furnishings, many readers will find this section of Ezekiel tedious, due to its many arcane details, but this is not the greatest difficulty presented by these chapters. By far, the greater difficulty has to do with identifying the time and manner of the fulfillment of the vision.

....

Choosing a Hermeneutical Strategy. In choosing among these options, we are compelled to decide between differing hermeneutical priorities. One of the chief hermeneutical principles recommended by dispensationalist scholars is that of maintaining a consistently literal interpretation. This would mean that “spiritualizing” the text must be seen as a departure from the most faithful handling of Scripture. Therefore, dispensationalists argue for a literal, physical building to be established in fulfillment of Ezekiel’s vision. Since the temple erected after Ezekiel’s time did not fit Ezekiel’s description, they believe that there must be another temple in the future that will do so more admirably.

It would be easier to accept this theory if we did not have the New Testament to guide our thinking. The most obvious problem presented here is that the book of Hebrews (e.g., 10:1–18) speaks of the death of Christ on the cross as a termination of the efficacy of bloody animal sacrifices, such as those Israel offered in the temple. If Ezekiel’s vision applies to a future time, why do we again find the offering of animal sacrifices?

The dispensationalist answer is that the millennial sacrifices will not be intended to atone for sins. The blood of Christ precludes any need for that. Just as the Old Testament sacrifices anticipated the death of Christ as a future event, it is suggested the future millennial sacrifices will commemorate the death of Christ as a past event.

The text of Ezekiel, however, seems to preclude this, since the various offerings in the temple are said to “make atonement for the house of Israel” (45:17).1 Thus, the sacrifices are presented as an atonement for sin, not as a memorial. Christ Himself recommended the use of wine and bread to commemorate His death (1 Cor. 11:24–26). Why would God replace this with animal sacrifices in which God never found any particular pleasure (Ps. 40:6; 51:16; Heb. 10:6)?


....

OR:

Though the Jews did not meet the conditions to have such a temple as Ezekiel’s, the pattern preserved in these chapters stands as a description of an intended order, which, had it materialized, would have testified, as the tabernacle once did, as a type and shadow of “heavenly things” (Heb. 8:5)—the new order in Jesus Christ. This, we may assume, was the long-term purpose served by the vision.

Though some features of the vision were probably intended symbolically from the start (e.g., the seemingly miraculous, ever-deepening river), it is probable that the temple and its rituals would have been literally instituted, as here described, had Israel met God’s conditions.

Whether or not the temple had ever actually been rebuilt, the new revelation in Christ encourages us to see its pattern as having been fulfilled in Jesus Christ Himself, who is the final atoning sacrifice and the eternal high priest of God’s people.

—Steve Gregg
Making Sense of Ezekiel’s Temple Vision - Christian Research Institute

 

[Stephen63]

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Yep.....that's pretty much"everybody"

 

[Stephen63]

Maybe I've missed something, but from the death of Christ to the destruction of the temple was waaay more than seven years, yes?

 

[dcontroversal]

proof of what?
post a passage and let's see if it is fulfilled.

It is finished.....

 

[zone]

Yep.....that's pretty much"everybody"

but you are not a former Pharisee.....are you?

 

[zone]

Maybe I've missed something, but from the death of Christ to the destruction of the temple was waaay more than seven years, yes?

yes and so?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ezekiel's temple:

The following chapters describe various sacrificial rituals performed by priests. Special attention is given to the role of one who is referred to as “the prince.” Near the end, a river is seen flowing out of the temple from under the threshold. The book closes with portions of the land assigned to various tribes.

....

As with the descriptions in Exodus of the tabernacle and its furnishings, many readers will find this section of Ezekiel tedious, due to its many arcane details, but this is not the greatest difficulty presented by these chapters. By far, the greater difficulty has to do with identifying the time and manner of the fulfillment of the vision.

....

Choosing a Hermeneutical Strategy. In choosing among these options, we are compelled to decide between differing hermeneutical priorities. One of the chief hermeneutical principles recommended by dispensationalist scholars is that of maintaining a consistently literal interpretation. This would mean that “spiritualizing” the text must be seen as a departure from the most faithful handling of Scripture. Therefore, dispensationalists argue for a literal, physical building to be established in fulfillment of Ezekiel’s vision. Since the temple erected after Ezekiel’s time did not fit Ezekiel’s description, they believe that there must be another temple in the future that will do so more admirably.

It would be easier to accept this theory if we did not have the New Testament to guide our thinking. The most obvious problem presented here is that the book of Hebrews (e.g., 10:1–18) speaks of the death of Christ on the cross as a termination of the efficacy of bloody animal sacrifices, such as those Israel offered in the temple. If Ezekiel’s vision applies to a future time, why do we again find the offering of animal sacrifices?

The dispensationalist answer is that the millennial sacrifices will not be intended to atone for sins. The blood of Christ precludes any need for that. Just as the Old Testament sacrifices anticipated the death of Christ as a future event, it is suggested the future millennial sacrifices will commemorate the death of Christ as a past event.

The text of Ezekiel, however, seems to preclude this, since the various offerings in the temple are said to “make atonement for the house of Israel” (45:17).1 Thus, the sacrifices are presented as an atonement for sin, not as a memorial. Christ Himself recommended the use of wine and bread to commemorate His death (1 Cor. 11:24–26). Why would God replace this with animal sacrifices in which God never found any particular pleasure (Ps. 40:6; 51:16; Heb. 10:6)?


....

OR:

Though the Jews did not meet the conditions to have such a temple as Ezekiel’s, the pattern preserved in these chapters stands as a description of an intended order, which, had it materialized, would have testified, as the tabernacle once did, as a type and shadow of “heavenly things” (Heb. 8:5)—the new order in Jesus Christ. This, we may assume, was the long-term purpose served by the vision.

Though some features of the vision were probably intended symbolically from the start (e.g., the seemingly miraculous, ever-deepening river), it is probable that the temple and its rituals would have been literally instituted, as here described, had Israel met God’s conditions.

Whether or not the temple had ever actually been rebuilt, the new revelation in Christ encourages us to see its pattern as having been fulfilled in Jesus Christ Himself, who is the final atoning sacrifice and the eternal high priest of God’s people.

—Steve Gregg
Making Sense of Ezekiel’s Temple Vision - Christian Research Institute

it could be me, But this makes no sense

He also messed up as to what people say needs to be taken literally. So his whole outline is based on a false precept of what text people say to take literally. And what is intended to be spiritual.

however, I will say, Some DISPy's are out there.. and have some strange ideas..lol

 

[Hizikyah]

None of this has yet happened, thus the 1,000 year reign is future...

[FONT=Arial, serif]Malachi/Malakyah 4:1-4, “For look, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif]the day shall come, burning like a furnace[/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif], and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said [/FONT]יהוה [FONT=Arial, serif]of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch. 2 “But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall. 3 “And you shall trample the wrongdoers,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif] for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet [/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif]on the day that I do this,” said [/FONT]יהוה [FONT=Arial, serif]of hosts. 4 “Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and right-rulings."

Isaiah 24:1-6, "See, [/FONT]יהוה [FONT=Arial, serif]is making the earth empty and making it waste, and shall overturn its surface, and shall scatter abroad its inhabitants. 2 And it shall be – as with the people so with the priest, as with the servant so with his master, as with the female servant so with her mistress, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the lender so with the borrower, as with the creditor so with the debtor; 3 the earth is completely emptied and utterly plundered, for [/FONT]יהוה [FONT=Arial, serif]has spoken this word. 4 The earth shall mourn and wither, the world shall languish and wither, the haughty people of the earth shall languish. 5 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif]For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torot, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif] 6 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif]Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left.[/FONT]​

Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning ofthe world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

[FONT=Arial, serif]Isayah 51:6, “[/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif]Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the earth beneath, for the heavens shall vanish like smoke[/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif], and the earth wear out like a garment, and those who dwell in it die as gnats. But My deliverance is forever, and My righteousness is not broken."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And[/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif] I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away[/FONT][FONT=Arial, serif], and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.[/FONT]​

 

[stonesoffire]

Seven mountains surround Jerusalem.

I believe the end of days is more about the two sons, Esau and Jacob and their descendants. The church is an interruption as someone pointed out...forgot who...in the fulfillment of prophecy.

The Jews are looking for Messiah to come...and a temple will be built. How else can Jesus sit on the throne of David?

 

[ZEEK]

What? Ad 70.

None of this has yet happened, thus the 1,000 year reign is future...

Malachi/Malakyah 4:1-4, “For look, the day shall come, burning like a furnace, and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said יהוה of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch. 2 “But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall. 3 “And you shall trample the wrongdoers, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” said יהוה of hosts. 4 “Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and right-rulings."

Isaiah 24:1-6, "See, יהוה is making the earth empty and making it waste, and shall overturn its surface, and shall scatter abroad its inhabitants. 2 And it shall be – as with the people so with the priest, as with the servant so with his master, as with the female servant so with her mistress, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the lender so with the borrower, as with the creditor so with the debtor; 3 the earth is completely emptied and utterly plundered, for יהוה has spoken this word. 4 The earth shall mourn and wither, the world shall languish and wither, the haughty people of the earth shall languish. 5 For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torot, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left.
Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning ofthe world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Isayah 51:6, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the earth beneath, for the heavens shall vanish like smoke, and the earth wear out like a garment, and those who dwell in it die as gnats. But My deliverance is forever, and My righteousness is not broken."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.​

 

[ZEEK]

Seven mountains surround Jerusalem.

I believe the end of days is more about the two sons, Esau and Jacob and their descendants. The church is an interruption as someone pointed out...forgot who...in the fulfillment of prophecy.

The Jews are looking for Messiah to come...and a temple will be built. How else can Jesus sit on the throne of David?

Jesus is on the throne of David. He is Shiloh. Where do you think the throne is?

 

[stonesoffire]

Father sits on the throne in heaven.