What is the basis of our faith?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
1,137
125
63
#41
There's no such thing as diseases meant for persecution and those that are not. We are in the last days and people must People die through pestilences (Diseases), famine (Natural disasters), sword (Wars), beats of the earth (animals & machinery/accidents)- and all these makes up the tribulation that the saints have to go through. The saints shall die but win a crown of life as their victor’s gift.

Only a few of the believers (Church of Philadelphia) are protected from these things and the reason is, they fully know God.

Jer 24
1After Jehoiachin[SUP]a[/SUP] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lord showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.
3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”
“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”
4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.[SUP]b[/SUP] 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.
8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a curse[SUP]c[/SUP] and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”

We are in Babylon right now, so don’t get it twisted.

Rev 13: 9He who has an ear, let him hear. 10“Ifanyoneis destined forcaptivity,intocaptivityhe will go; Ifanyoneis to diebythe sword,bythe swordhemustbe killed. Here is a call for the perseveranceand faith of the saints.
Rev 13:10“If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; If anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed.” Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.

What does the above verse mean with regards to our faith? it means it doesn't trump the will of God. The one that is to die by the sword, by the sword they MUST be killed and definitely, the one that is to die by pestilence (disease), they can not change that.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
63,027
1,842
113
#42
Live by the sword, die by the sword means that if you live a dangerous or reckless lifestyle, that it most likely will be the cause of your demise some day..
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
1,137
125
63
#43
Live by the sword, die by the sword means that if you live a dangerous or reckless lifestyle, that it most likely will be the cause of your demise some day..
Nope.

The statement in Rev 13 is not about living by and dying by the sword, it is about refining believers faith through fire (tribulations) and the end result is faith finer and precious than silver and gold.

Rev 6: 7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth 9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Rev 2:
8“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.11Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,808
557
113
#44
Paul's thorn in the flesh wasn't physical (a sickness), the verse itself says it.
"In the flesh" means "in his body". And there are many Scriptures which tells us that demons -- messengers of Satan -- afflict people with physical diseases and disabilities.

So just because this nullifies your ideas about healing does not mean that Paul did not have a SERIOUS PHYSICAL DISABILITY because of Satan working through demons. Some say his eyesight was damaged, others say that his legs may have been affected. It does not matter. "In the flesh" means in his body, since Paul was always filled with the Holy Ghost and walking in the Spirit. That is why he was given the privilege of writing over half the New Testament by Divine revelation.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,053
308
83
28
#45
"In the flesh" means "in his body". And there are many Scriptures which tells us that demons -- messengers of Satan -- afflict people with physical diseases and disabilities.

So just because this nullifies your ideas about healing does not mean that Paul did not have a SERIOUS PHYSICAL DISABILITY because of Satan working through demons. Some say his eyesight was damaged, others say that his legs may have been affected. It does not matter. "In the flesh" means in his body, since Paul was always filled with the Holy Ghost and walking in the Spirit. That is why he was given the privilege of writing over half the New Testament by Divine revelation.
Unfortunately for you Nehemiah, you have dismissed the context that is clearly plain. Contextually he, the apostle Paul, is speaking of being persecuted (look at verse 10) for preaching the Gospel. Yes, indeed, he was persecuted in the flesh. He was stoned nearly to death, for example. So of course it was in the flesh, not as a form of sickness or bodily ailment, but in the form of persecution that did affect his body (through wear and tear, beatings, stoning, etc).

The thorn in the flesh wasn't the bodily harm he received (itself), such harm was a result of the thorn of the flesh itself which was a fallen angel. Again, persecution for preaching the Gospel. You cannot say that the thorn in the flesh was blindness, or his legs because you would be speculating and also, the verses surrounding it clearly say what the thorn in the flesh was. A messenger of satan, a fallen angel (2 Corinthians 12:7). Followed by this revelation we must also see the context of which it was spoken and that is persecution for sharing the Gospel.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,768
180
63
#46
Unfortunately for you Nehemiah, you have dismissed the context that is clearly plain. Contextually he, the apostle Paul, is speaking of being persecuted (look at verse 10) for preaching the Gospel. Yes, indeed, he was persecuted in the flesh. He was stoned nearly to death, for example. So of course it was in the flesh, not as a form of sickness or bodily ailment, but in the form of persecution that did affect his body (through wear and tear, beatings, stoning, etc).

The thorn in the flesh wasn't the bodily harm he received (itself), such harm was a result of the thorn of the flesh itself which was a fallen angel. Again, persecution for preaching the Gospel. You cannot say that the thorn in the flesh was blindness, or his legs because you would be speculating and also, the verses surrounding it clearly say what the thorn in the flesh was. A messenger of satan, a fallen angel (2 Corinthians 12:7). Followed by this revelation we must also see the context of which it was spoken and that is persecution for sharing the Gospel.
If we look at the word of God - He tells us through other scripture also what "thorns" in the flesh reference.

Numbers 33:55 But if you will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which you let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein you dwell.

Joshua 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Judges 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

It seems apparent that "thorns" are people - ungodly people. So, Paul was being inundated with people influenced by Satan to disrupt him from spreading the gospel . . . . IMHO. :)
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,053
308
83
28
#47
If we look at the word of God - He tells us through other scripture also what "thorns" in the flesh reference.

Numbers 33:55 But if you will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which you let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein you dwell.

Joshua 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Judges 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

It seems apparent that "thorns" are people - ungodly people. So, Paul was being inundated with people influenced by Satan to disrupt him from spreading the gospel . . . . IMHO. :)
i,e; persecution. :p Good post Peaceful.
 
Last edited:

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,808
557
113
#48
Unfortunately for you Nehemiah, you have dismissed the context that is clearly plain.
The "clearly plain context" is actually Paul's visit to Paradise in Heaven, and the aftermath of that. So let's look at the Scripture for context (2 Cor 12) and see that the "thorn in the flesh" was an "infirmity" (physical disability):

PAUL RELUCTANTLY DISCLOSES HIS VISIT TO HEAVEN
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

PAUL TAKEN UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN (GOD’S HEAVEN)
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth -- such an one caught up to the third heaven.

ONLY GOD KNEW EXACTLY IN WHAT STATE HE WAS TAKEN UP
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

PAUL WAS CAUGHT UP TO PARADISE AND HEARD THINGS NOT TO BE UTTERED ON EARTH
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

PAUL NOW FOCUSES ON HIS “INFIRMITIES” (PHYSICAL DISABILITIES)

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

PAUL UNDERSTANDS IT IS FOOLISH TO GLORY IN WHAT HE EXPERIENCED
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

NONETHELESS GOD WOULD PREVENT HIM FROM SELF-EXALTATION
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

PAUL PRAYED THRICE FOR THE REMOVAL OF HIS INFIRMITY
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

GOD’S GRACE SUFFICIENT, THEREFORE HE WOULD GLORY IN HIS “INFIRMITIES”
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

ONCE AGAIN HE MENTIONS “INFIRMITIES” FIRST SO THAT THERE IS NO DOUBT
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

When Paul says "when I am weak, then am I strong" he totally demolishes the false notion that Christians are guaranteed perfect health and physical excellence.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,053
308
83
28
#49
The "clearly plain context" is actually Paul's visit to Paradise in Heaven, and the aftermath of that. So let's look at the Scripture for context (2 Cor 12) and see that the "thorn in the flesh" was an "infirmity" (physical disability):

PAUL RELUCTANTLY DISCLOSES HIS VISIT TO HEAVEN
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

PAUL TAKEN UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN (GOD’S HEAVEN)
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth -- such an one caught up to the third heaven.

ONLY GOD KNEW EXACTLY IN WHAT STATE HE WAS TAKEN UP
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

PAUL WAS CAUGHT UP TO PARADISE AND HEARD THINGS NOT TO BE UTTERED ON EARTH
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

PAUL NOW FOCUSES ON HIS “INFIRMITIES” (PHYSICAL DISABILITIES)

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

PAUL UNDERSTANDS IT IS FOOLISH TO GLORY IN WHAT HE EXPERIENCED
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

NONETHELESS GOD WOULD PREVENT HIM FROM SELF-EXALTATION
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

PAUL PRAYED THRICE FOR THE REMOVAL OF HIS INFIRMITY
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

GOD’S GRACE SUFFICIENT, THEREFORE HE WOULD GLORY IN HIS “INFIRMITIES”
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

ONCE AGAIN HE MENTIONS “INFIRMITIES” FIRST SO THAT THERE IS NO DOUBT
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

When Paul says "when I am weak, then am I strong" he totally demolishes the false notion that Christians are guaranteed perfect health and physical excellence.
However you try to reason this (as falsely as you do), you're still stuck with a dilemma. Under your belief system no one can have faith to be healed. This is contrary to scripture.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,058
40
48
#50
How can we have faith in God for something, if we do not know His will in the matter? On what basis can we have faith in God, be it for deliverance, protection, providence, healing, or any blessing? His will by necessity must be revealed in order to have faith. Without His will we are left with hope. How does faith come to be, if it is an expectation, a believing of something as having been done, if we do not understand God's will?

Fellow Christians will say that healing is not guaranteed, that we must know the will and purposes of God (first and foremost). I would ask, sincerely, how anyone can have faith to be healed of God if they are in ignorance to His will, then? What is there to have faith in? If healing is not guaranteed, a promise, then on what basis can a person have faith for it? Are we to conclude then that it is presumptive to have faith to be healed?

Should we then not expect of God to heal us? And for those that do, are they laying before God a request He has never agreed to fulfill? A prayer that is not of faith, conclusively, because it doesn't know His will. Rather it is a request willing to accept no as its answer. How then does a person utilize faith? How does the prayer of faith save the sick(James 5:15) if faith ceases to exist at ignorance to the will of God?

If we believe that healing is not guaranteed, we omit faith. Its very simple. Ironically to state that we must know the will of God in respect to one's own sickness and healing is to state the same thing that the others proclaim as it being God's will to heal. That being, in both cases both parties agree that knowing God's will is the key to its reception.

The difference is that those who do not believe healing is a guarantee, that it is presumptive to have faith to be healed (consequentially, and by nature of the doctrine), have actually placed a noose around the neck of faith, taking its last breath. As the premise is, to not know God's will is to eliminate faith; for what is there to have faith in if God has not made it His word (of which He is faithful to)? What can the sick have faith in, in order to be healed, if they have nothing to take hold of?

They are left, with such a doctrine, with an ever elusive seeking of the will of God, and instead of reaching forth for Jesus' garment they must first ask, "Lord, may I touch your garment?" Respectable, but notice in the story of the woman who believed that touching Jesus' garment would heal her, she didn't ask because she already knew. He had set the precedence. He is the Messiah. As such she was made whole, in accordance with her faith and in knowing His will (it was who He revealed Himself to be, healing all that were sick).

You see, the basis of our faith is God. Our faith is a response to who He is, and who He claims to be. When we understand His heart, His character, His nature, and His promises we respond in faith because He is not a liar (and shows Himself to be faithful). This is why healing must be a promise, if not in word alone, in the character and nature of God (Jehovah Rapha). It is for this reason that we may have faith, because we know His will that is revealed both in Word, and in His nature.

I wish you all the best.
Don't agree with your "basis of Faith", Mine is 1 Cor 15:1-4...
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,053
308
83
28
#51
However you try to reason this (as falsely as you do), you're still stuck with a dilemma. Under your belief system no one can have faith to be healed. This is contrary to scripture.
So many individuals throughout history believed God would heal them and He did. However if you are correct that healing is dependent upon God's present will and purpose (and this will must be known), then no one, not one, can have faith for healing until they seek God's will in their sickness. Which is contrary to what is revealed in scripture. Especially is the case with those that went to Jesus in faith, and received healing ("your faith has made thee whole").

If we logically consider your doctrine, your belief system on healing, you do not believe a person can have faith for healing. It is nigh impossible, unless of course they get to know God's will (in their present matter) and then believe what His response is. However, this means that a person, literally, cannot have faith for healing until they hear back from God, and this means that to believe that it is God's will for them to be well is presumptive, audacious, on their part. Selfish even (to the logical extreme).

If we're being slightly brash, we might say to the person believing God will heal them, "Hey, wait on a second! First seek God's will." Dismissing their faith, placing doubt upon it, declaring it as a self-seeking endeavor. I know, of course, you wouldn't be so heartless, but to bring your belief system, doctrines, to their logical conclusion we must understand their implications in a practical way.

How do elders administer the prayer of faith to save the sick (heal them), if they, the sick, must first seek God's will in respect to their healing? The elders too would be presumptive to lay hands, anoint with oil, and pray for healing (that shall save the sick). The fact that we're told to bring the sick to the elders is in and of itself testament to the reality of healing being the will of God. Why else give the directive?

If healing is not a promise, in some fashion, and a part of God's will revealed, then faith is void, presumptive, and self-seeking (under your belief system). Under my understanding, seeking healing is in accordance with God's will because it glorifies the Son (Acts 3:13). It too may be self-seeking but only to the extent that it is receptive to His revealed will and benefits self. It is not presumptive because it comprehends the will of God (through the atonement, the character and nature of Christ/God, and the Word of God).
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,053
308
83
28
#52
Don't agree with your "basis of Faith", Mine is 1 Cor 15:1-4...
We are not speaking of our faith in that of Jesus Christ and the Gospel (though that too is comprehending His will). We are speaking of utilizing faith.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,005
235
63
#53
Don't agree with your "basis of Faith", Mine is 1 Cor 15:1-4...
This comment actually proves his statement. Your basis of faith, is based on what you know, which is what you read in 1 Co 15:1-4. And 1 Co 15:1:4 says the same thing, you believe because what was preached. What you HEARD.

People need to hear, so they can believe, which is why faith comes by hearing.

Faith can be defined as agreement with God.

The discussion here is does the gospel include healing? Well, let's see healing IS good news. Healing DOES reveal God. Healing DOES give God glory.

John 11:4 And having heard, Jesus said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."

People being healed glorifies the Son of God.

In EVERY instance of healing people had to come to Jesus and/or someone had to pray for them.

You have not because you ASK not. People don't ASK if they don't know/believe it's available.
 
Last edited:

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
5,954
191
63
#54
However you try to reason this (as falsely as you do), you're still stuck with a dilemma. Under your belief system no one can have faith to be healed. This is contrary to scripture.
It is how the word thorn is used throughscripture to represent natural unconverted man who will have nothing to do with the law of faith, the unseen will of God hidden in parables.

Thorns the fruitlessness of man


Genesis 3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalteat the herb of the field;
Judges 2:3
Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you;but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be asnare unto you.
Hebrews 6:8
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, andis nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Proverbs 22:5
Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep hissoul shall be far from them

The froward nations, no faith. Paul before his conversion.


Deuteronomy 32:20
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what theirend shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is nofaith.

God heals without the use of hands ofman. He raises up all the temporal illness as a common grace in his timing, the last time those who known Christ will rise from healing ... it will be with their new incorruptible body.

There are no healings healing as a sign a person believes God, wewalk by faith the unseen understanding. If the believer have sinned they willbe forgiven instantaneously


Those who were healed instantaneously like the woman with the blood issue or man who never walked were usedto represent certain aspect of the gospel during that time of reformation.

God heals without the hand of man, he has no need of human hands to work out the good pleaure of His will.He raises upall the temporal illness in his timing, the last time those who known Christwill rise it will be with their new incorruptible body.

No healing as a sign aperson believes God.If the believer has sinned they will be forgiven instantaneously

Those who were healed instantaneously were used in parables to represent certain aspect of the gospel during that time ofreformation which was needed to establish the restored government of the church.

Without parables hiding the unseen spiritual understanding, Christ spoke not.
 
Last edited:

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
5,954
191
63
#55
Faith can be defined as agreement with God.


I would offer faith is the work of God that he works in us. He is the author and perfecter of our new faith that will never die.

As Roman informs us .What if some do not believe(no faith) ? Will it make the faith of God without effect. To effect something is a work .

Its when men try and separate faith from works were problems begin
.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,005
235
63
#56
Here's an honest question for those willing to be honest.

If Jesus told you, that you were healed would you believe it? You would probably say yes! I hope so anyway. :)

But what if Jesus told you, that you could walk on water, would you believe it? You would probably also say yes! I hope so anyway. :)

At this point, you might think well if Jesus said I could walk on water well there's nothing that would stop me, because He is in control of everything and *I* have nothing to do with it!

Peter thought this too. He figured if Jesus told Him he could walk on water, well he could jump right out and he would have no problems at all. So he did! And for a short time, HE did walk on water.

Until this thing called doubt crept in, what was doubt? Doubt was Peter analyzing with his rational mind, and looking into the world for evidence. He started to hear the waves crashing over him, he started to feel fear that he could drown, and it got bigger and bigger.

Today, so many people would say way to go Peter! That's wisdom brother! God gave you a brain for a reason! And we see this every single day. God has other things in store for us, but we use our "wisdom" to decide whether or not He actually said it.

And this is not faith, this is doubt. This is double-mindedness.

And this is exactly what so many well meaning Christians try to enforce on others - daily.

And their conclusion is well, it must not have been God's will, or else it would have happened.

Because *I* have nothing to do with it.

Even Salvation is being attacked today, "you don't need to believe, because God MAKES you believe."
 
Last edited:

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,005
235
63
#57
I would offer faith is the work of God that he works in us. He is the author and perfecter of our new faith that will never die.

As Roman informs us .What if some do not believe(no faith) ? Will it make the faith of God without effect. To effect something is a work .

Its when men try and separate faith from works were problems begin
.
I hear you, but if people don't hear - they don't have faith.

You believe Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of your faith (and He is) because you agree with Scripture. And you agree with your interpretation of what Scripture says. Agreement is critical.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,053
308
83
28
#58
The "clearly plain context" is actually Paul's visit to Paradise in Heaven, and the aftermath of that. So let's look at the Scripture for context (2 Cor 12) and see that the "thorn in the flesh" was an "infirmity" (physical disability):

PAUL RELUCTANTLY DISCLOSES HIS VISIT TO HEAVEN
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

PAUL TAKEN UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN (GOD’S HEAVEN)
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth -- such an one caught up to the third heaven.

ONLY GOD KNEW EXACTLY IN WHAT STATE HE WAS TAKEN UP
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

PAUL WAS CAUGHT UP TO PARADISE AND HEARD THINGS NOT TO BE UTTERED ON EARTH
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

PAUL NOW FOCUSES ON HIS “INFIRMITIES” (PHYSICAL DISABILITIES)

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

PAUL UNDERSTANDS IT IS FOOLISH TO GLORY IN WHAT HE EXPERIENCED
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

NONETHELESS GOD WOULD PREVENT HIM FROM SELF-EXALTATION
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

PAUL PRAYED THRICE FOR THE REMOVAL OF HIS INFIRMITY
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

GOD’S GRACE SUFFICIENT, THEREFORE HE WOULD GLORY IN HIS “INFIRMITIES”
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

ONCE AGAIN HE MENTIONS “INFIRMITIES” FIRST SO THAT THERE IS NO DOUBT
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

When Paul says "when I am weak, then am I strong" he totally demolishes the false notion that Christians are guaranteed perfect health and physical excellence.
It doesn't necessarily need to be restated, but for the sake of clarity and sound exegesis it should.

2 Corinthians 12:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The thorn in the flesh is not a physical infirmity as you describe it, as the scripture tells us exactly what it was. A messenger (angelos/angel) of satan to buffet (beaten, struck, roughly treated; persecute) the apostle Paul.

As for your use of the word "infirmity" in 2 Corinthians 12:5, lets take a look at the Greek.
http://biblehub.com/greek/769.htm

You'll notice that at times it does represent illness, but also it represents weakness(es) (which is an ongoing theme in 2 Corinthians 12). For example... (same word used)

Romans 6:19 N-AFS
GRK: διὰ τὴν ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς
NAS: because of the weakness of your flesh.
KJV: because of the infirmity of your
INT: on account of the weakness of the flesh


So Paul gloried in his weaknesses (or said he'd rather glory in them) so that the power of Christ may rest on him (2 Corinthians 12:9). He knew not to depend upon himself but God, not on his elegance of speech but the power of God (for example, in preaching the truth).

[h=1]2 Corinthians 12:9 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.[/FONT]

To sum up, lets take a look at another verse that uses infirmity and the context of which it is used.

2 Corinthians 11:25-30 King James Version (KJV)

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Here it speaks of all the persecution, and stuff he went through for the sake of sharing the Gospel, preaching the truth. He refers to it all as "mine infirmities" about himself in relation to all he had to endure for the sake of preaching.

It all goes back to persecution (and the cost to him for spreading the Gospel), and shows the thorn in the flesh is in reference to a fallen angel that would bring persecution to him (adding difficulties, roadblocks, etc) for sharing the Gospel. Infirmities as he called them.

Even if we were to take infirmities to mean physical disability, they were a result of the thorn in the flesh and not the thorn in the flesh itself. A result of persecution from preaching the Gospel, not a sickness sent by God to keep him humble.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,058
40
48
#59
We are not speaking of our faith in that of Jesus Christ and the Gospel (though that too is comprehending His will). We are speaking of utilizing faith.
Faith is an intangible characteristic of an individual. If you are going to utilize anything then listen to the Holy SPirit, Let Him guide you and protect you...Good works through HIM will come from that intangible faith in our Savior, Jesus Christ.
 

Lighthearted

Senior Member
Oct 17, 2016
1,017
74
48
#60
Originally posted by BEN
How can we have faith in God for something, if we do not know His will in the matter? On what basis can we have faith in God, be it for deliverance, protection, providence, healing, or any blessing? His will by necessity must be revealed in order to have faith. Without His will we are left with hope. How does faith come to be, if it is an expectation, a believing of something as having been done, if we do not understand God's will?


If you have faith in His existence, faith in His promises, then you should have no problem having faith that He knows and wants what's best for you and trust Him in His wisdom.
 
Last edited: