When are we saved ?

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OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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Just a reminder . We don't exist . That should clear the fog here.
“In Christ” has nada to do with that in 2 Thessalonians 2:9 or Ephesians 1:4. “In Christ” is in reference to the verbs ( chose and was given) not the direct objects (us).

Very simple.

Nothing to do with whether we existed or not when God performed the actions

Simple grammar
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Just a reminder . We don't exist . That should clear the fog here.
No fog at all

“In Christ” in Ephesians 1:4 is in reference to the verb, not the direct object of the verb.

It has nothing to do with our existence. It’s telling us something about God’s choice.
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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Do you agree that someone give. But we don't attain until we recieve . I m
absolutely convinced that eph 2.11-12 is true .
“ ...was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began...” 2 Thessalonians 1:9

This phrase “ in Christ” doesn’t say we were in Christ Jesus when the verb is performed, does it? Doesn’t mean that in any way, right?

The same is true in Ephesians 1:4. The phrase in Him doesn’t mean we were in Christ Jesus when the verb was performed. “ in Christ Jesus is not describing our location, it is telling us something about the verb.
 

OIC1965

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When I say ' given us ' I'm not meaning literally given to Billy, sue , John, Paul Ringo but not George. In the sense of an hidden bank vault in heaven but then released in time when ready .
But you agree that the phrase “in Christ Jesus” in 2 Thess. 1:9 is not IN ANY WAY talking about us existing or being in Christ when the verb “ was given” was performed, right

A simple yes or no please.
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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God also gave US something else that happened 2000 years ago .
The issue is your misuse of the phrase “in Him” to try to negate the fact that God chose us before the foundation of the world on the basis that we did not exist yet

“God chose us in Him”...has nothing to do with when we began to exist. “In Him” modifies the verb, not the direct object.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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“In Christ” has nada to do with that in 2 Thessalonians 2:9 or Ephesians 1:4. “In Christ” is in reference to the verbs ( chose and was given) not the direct objects (us).

Very simple.

Nothing to do with whether we existed or not when God performed the actions

Simple grammar
Context ? I'm still waiting for your overall explanation of the passages in question . What's Paul sharing here ? what's the comfort? Whats Paul's point in Romans 8 . I listen to Paul washer , Piper Macarthur and never here context. Just isolated verses supposedly teaching how sovereign God is . But no clue what the Authors intent is ?
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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“ ...was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began...” 2 Thessalonians 1:9

This phrase “ in Christ” doesn’t say we were in Christ Jesus when the verb is performed, does it? Doesn’t mean that in any way, right?

The same is true in Ephesians 1:4. The phrase in Him doesn’t mean we were in Christ Jesus when the verb was performed. “ in Christ Jesus is not describing our location, it is telling us something about the verb.
Observe the close similarity between the wording of 2 Timothy 1:9–10 and Ephesians. 1:4–5. The meaning, then, is clear. “Before the foundation of the world,” God decreed that He would choose no one in this age to become “holy and without blame” unless they were “in Christ.” Jesus Christ was to be the medium through which all blessings would be dispensed (vs. 10), and we can only be “accepted in the beloved” (vs. 6). You were not “in the beloved” before Genesis 1:1, nor was anyone else. You were not “in Christ” before Genesis 1:1, nor was anyone else. Christ had no “Body” until Acts 2 into which you could enter (John 17:23); therefore, the entire system of Calvinism—where it deals with election—is a nullity. Predestination (vs. 5) always follows FOREKNOWLEDGE (Rom. 8:29), and election always follows FOREKNOWLEDGE (1 Pet. 1:2).
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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The issue is your misuse of the phrase “in Him” to try to negate the fact that God chose us before the foundation of the world on the basis that we did not exist yet

“God chose us in Him”...has nothing to do with when we began to exist. “In Him” modifies the verb, not the direct object.
No your ignoring verses 1-14 which complete the context. When you disagree , Chapter 2 . 11-12 refutes what your saying . I don't have all this " in God's mind " before we existed philosophy clouding my judgement. People claim to understand everything that happened before Genesis 1.1 Foolishness. Let's stick to what the bible actually says and not philosophy about what you think happened in eternity past.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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Observe the close similarity between the wording of 2 Timothy 1:9–10 and Ephesians. 1:4–5. The meaning, then, is clear. “Before the foundation of the world,” God decreed that He would choose no one in this age to become “holy and without blame” unless they were “in Christ.” Jesus Christ was to be the medium through which all blessings would be dispensed (vs. 10), and we can only be “accepted in the beloved” (vs. 6). You were not “in the beloved” before Genesis 1:1, nor was anyone else. You were not “in Christ” before Genesis 1:1, nor was anyone else. Christ had no “Body” until Acts 2 into which you could enter (John 17:23); therefore, the entire system of Calvinism—where it deals with election—is a nullity. Predestination (vs. 5) always follows FOREKNOWLEDGE (Rom. 8:29), and election always follows FOREKNOWLEDGE (1 Pet. 1:2).
who said we were in Christ before Gen 1:1. Lol
 
Jul 8, 2018
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Wow! really ? Good grief man . I nearly gave up on you when you said Romans 1 is taking about born again, regenerated people . But you've stepped off the edge now with "]There are those that are regenerated children of God that are not SONS of God," More out of morbid curiosity, what are you referring to here 😳?
The unbelieving regenerated are the children of God. The believing regenerated are the sons of God. This harmonizes with 2 Tim 2:13, have you read it?

The larger portion of the human race were as dumbfounded as you are when they heard Jesus preach this doctrine.
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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No your ignoring verses 1-14 which complete the context. When you disagree , Chapter 2 . 11-12 refutes what your saying . I don't have all this " in God's mind " before we existed philosophy clouding my judgement. People claim to understand everything that happened before Genesis 1.1 Foolishness. Let's stick to what the bible actually says and not philosophy about what you think happened in eternity past.
The Bible says God chose us before the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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Context ? I'm still waiting for your overall explanation of the passages in question . What's Paul sharing here ? what's the comfort? Whats Paul's point in Romans 8 . I listen to Paul washer , Piper Macarthur and never here context. Just isolated verses supposedly teaching how sovereign God is . But no clue what the Authors intent is ?
The passages say what they say. They don’t say anything about us existing or not existing before Genesis 1:1. You’re WAY OFF in your interpretation.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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The unbelieving regenerated are the children of God. The believing regenerated are the sons of God. This harmonizes with 2 Tim 2:13, have you read it?

The larger portion of the human race were as dumbfounded as you are when they heard Jesus preach this doctrine.
So a person can be regenerated and not believe at the same time ?
 

throughfaith

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2 Timothy 1:9. So what’s your answer.
'but according to his own purpose and grace' He didn't do this for rocks , cats or angels even , but us . Isn't that amazing. Not us ' Billy, Bob, sue , timmy , Fred...not you scot , Tony, Sandra ect . But anyone in him .
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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The passages say what they say. They don’t say anything about us existing or not existing before Genesis 1:1. You’re WAY OFF in your interpretation.
Then work within Genesis 1.1 . Were not given much beyond Gen 1.1 so why are you claiming to know a great deal about before Genesis 1.1 ?
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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That verse is not in a vacuum on its own. What's Paul telling this church about ?
The many spiritual blessings God has granted us “ in Christ”, which includes the fact that God chose us before the foundation of the world.

“In Christ” is referring to the SOURCE of all the blessings, it is not talking about our existence. You got that from the fallacious argument in the video you shared. In Christ is not about us and our existence. It is about the SOURCE from which all the blessings come.

God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ. Source. Christ is the fountain from which all spiritual blessings flows. Like it says in Colossians “in Him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom. And 2 Timothy Grace given into us in Christ before the earth began. Nothing to do with our existence. If it did, we existed before the world began. But since we’re not Mormons, I suppose that in Christ refers to the source of the grace and blessings, not our existence.
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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'but according to his own purpose and grace' He didn't do this for rocks , cats or angels even , but us . Isn't that amazing. Not us ' Billy, Bob, sue , timmy , Fred...not you scot , Tony, Sandra ect . But anyone in him .
anyone in Him before the world began? I think not. That’s preexistent souls. Don’t believe it

Given us in Christ Jesus is referring to the source. Jesus is the source from which grace and blessings flow.

In Christ Jesus. Similar to in His Name

Modifier of the verb, not the object.