When does the rapture occur?

[Hoffco]

What makes you think the Great Multitude are Raptured? Nothing tells us this. We are told we will suffer tribulation, persecution and death and this is even before the "Great Tribulation" where everything ramps up.

The GM are seen crying, thirsty and hungry. Can you tell me what it means symbolically to be spiritually thirsty and hungry?? I can tell you, it ain't raptured.

Sorry, you don't understand the beatitudes,?: " Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, they shall be filled" MT. 5:6 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness'sake, for their is the kingdom of heaven." Love, HoffcoPS. I need to get ready for Church. God bless for now.

 

[Atwood]

I can only show you that Christ shall judge in his kingdom:
2Ti_4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
the same kingdom which he will deliver to the Father.

1Co 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

If you can prove there are more to it...by all means please show.

otherwise it is like asking me to prove biblically if you have a brain?

no. if you make an assertion about there being only 1 kingdom in the Bible, you can be asked to prove it or say, "I have no proof, not having carefully considered all the passages."

Now anyone who claims there is only 1 kingdom & that it was established at X time, should bring for the establishment date proof, and also do at least a quick check of the OT and see if there was perhaps already in existence in the OT the "kingdom of God." One would not wish to claim that God was not reigning in OT times without some good proof; as that is counter intuitive. Could it be that in the OT there is this future prophesied Kingdom of David (aka Kingdom of God) and also a universal Kingdom of God always going on?

 

[Atwood]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

When you prove \

If I make an unproven assertion, feel free to ask me to support it. If you want to be believed here, I suggest that you give proof for your assertions. There is nothing improper about asking for proof when someone makes a bold assertion. I mean no offense by it.

And I also suggest that you stop taking the name of the Lord in vain.

Thus again, the proof is requested (if you have any) that apostasia = departure, cannot mean a literal departure.

 

[Elin]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

When you prove God does not have two noses.

If I make an unproven assertion, feel free to ask me to support it.

You can start with "apostasy."

Thus again, the proof is requested (if you have any) that apostasia = departure, cannot mean a literal departure.

When you prove God does not have two noses.

Have you tried the English dictionary?

Apostosy = forsake, fall away from, defect, revolt

See Ac 21:21.

 

[Atwood]

The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Let me suggest that we focus on the imminence of the Rapture.
Settle that one first. Then proceed to argue the color of the toenails on the beast.

James 5
Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for

the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold,

the judge stands before the doors.


I hope we can all agree on the above.

Those of you who insist (wrongly of course) that the Olivet Discourse has the Rapture in it, will want to consider that the Coming there can be at a time you expect not, & that twice Mark 13 says, "You do not know when."

Surely it is an error to claim that you know Christ cannot return until at least 7 more years have passed after today. His appearing is our blessed hope (& that "His" does not refer to the Beast!)

So, figure out the rest of it as you will, but let us who are His Bride expect His return at any moment.

 

[Elin]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Let me suggest that we focus on the imminence of the Rapture.

So, figure out the rest of it as you will, but let us who are His Bride expect His return at any moment.

There can be no return and gathering together (rapture) until the great falling away and the man of lawlessness is revealed (2Th 2:1-8).

 

[watcher2013]

the kingdom in question is where Christ reign...

How many kingdoms do you think wherein Christ shall reign?

I can only show you that Christ shall judge in his kingdom:
2Ti_4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
the same kingdom which he will deliver to the Father.

1Co 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

If you can prove there are more to it...by all means please show.

otherwise it is like asking me to prove biblically if you have a brain?

no. if you make an assertion about there being only 1 kingdom in the Bible, you can be asked to prove it or say, "I have no proof, not having carefully considered all the passages."

Now anyone who claims there is only 1 kingdom & that it was established at X time, should bring for the establishment date proof, and also do at least a quick check of the OT and see if there was perhaps already in existence in the OT the "kingdom of God." One would not wish to claim that God was not reigning in OT times without some good proof; as that is counter intuitive. Could it be that in the OT there is this future prophesied Kingdom of David (aka Kingdom of God) and also a universal Kingdom of God always going on?

having carefully considered all the passages, The above verse has been shown to you to show "a kingdom" wherein Christ shall reign and after which he shall deliver the "same kingdom" to the Father....
I do not know what prove you still need...I think that proves a kingdom wherein Christ shall reign...

Now its your turn show your wisdom...and share what did we missed????

 

[watcher2013]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Let me suggest that we focus on the imminence of the Rapture.
Settle that one first. Then proceed to argue the color of the toenails on the beast.

James 5
Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for

the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold,

the judge stands before the doors.


I hope we can all agree on the above.

Those of you who insist (wrongly of course) that the Olivet Discourse has the Rapture in it, will want to consider that the Coming there can be at a time you expect not, & that twice Mark 13 says, "You do not know when."

Surely it is an error to claim that you know Christ cannot return until at least 7 more years have passed after today. His appearing is our blessed hope (& that "His" does not refer to the Beast!)

So, figure out the rest of it as you will, but let us who are His Bride expect His return at any moment.

If we are the Bride, Who are the guests at the wedding?

 

[Jason0047]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

NO WAY! I believe Lk.12:46 is, Hell, for the worthless servant, he is a Judas, never saved. Loved Hoffco

That is not what the context says, though. Keep reading.

For it says,

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48).

Did you catch that?
It says those servants who did not prepare themselves and did according to His will be beaten with many stripes. Being beaten is a form of correction and not condemnation.

 

[Elin]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

If we are the Bride, Who are the guests at the wedding?

See Eph 3:10.

 

[watcher2013]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

See Eph 3:10.

it did not even touch the question elin...

If the Church is the Bride...I she also the guests...???

 

[Elin]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

it did not even touch the question elin...

Through the church God is manifesting his wisdom to whom?

See Eph 1:20-21.

The church is the wife and bride (Eph 5:30-32, Rev), the body of the husband

in the two-in-one enfleshment of the martial union.

 

[Jason0047]

Believe that if you wish, but you are wrong. Further, nothing in 1 Thes 4 gives it a pre-Trib timing so you are speculating about that too. You don't even have the correct member of the Trinity identified, but that's besides the point. People can translate and alter the scripture all they want but it doesn't mean what they think will come to pass.

The Rapture doctrine teaches, "PEACE and SAFETY" when God has not told us there will be peace and safety. Sound familiar? It should. It was the same thing the prophets were telling Israel just before Babylon took them away captive and now history repeats. Pre-Tribbers preach peace and safety as if by saying it they can make it so. God teaches the opposite. So the slaughter is coming and so few are ready.

Compare Ezek 13:

2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy out of their own heart, 'Hear the word of the Lord!' " 3 Thus says the Lord God: "Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 O Israel, your prophets are like foxes in the deserts. 5 You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the Lord. 6 They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, 'Thus says the Lord!' But the Lord has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed. 7 Have you not seen a futile vision, and have you not spoken false divination? You say, 'The Lord says,' but I have not spoken." 8 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Because you have spoken nonsense and envisioned lies, therefore I am indeed against you," says the Lord God. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies; they shall not be in the assembly of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord God. 10 Because, indeed, because they have seduced My people, saying, 'Peace!' when there is no peace-

to Matthew 24:

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

A slaughter of Jews and Christians is coming. But many are teaching PEACE when there is NO PEACE. There is no safety. There is only deception, persecution and death. There is no rapture lesson taught here yet some teach it based on a false timing of 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 where neither passage gives the historical context with absolute clarity.

No, 1 Thessalonians 5:1 starts another topic because Paul says he does not need to teach them these things. He also says, But... (and then describes signs and times), which is a different topic of discussion. Also, the words, "Peace and saftey" is not spoken by believers, either. In fact, no true believer would say this because they know that all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution in some way. So the idea that true Bible believing Christians are just hoping to get out of being persecuted in general is not true. Escaping ALL these things is completely different than the persecution that a Christian is faced with.

 

[watcher2013]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Through the church God is manifesting his wisdom to whom?

you will have difficulties in explaining this elin...because as said...you need to deal with the basics...

 

[Elin]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Through the church God is manifesting his wisdom to whom?

See Eph 1:20-21.

The church is the wife and bride (Eph 5:30-32, Rev 21:9),
the body of the husband in the two-in-one enfleshment of the martial union.

you will have difficulties in explaining this elin...because as said...you need to deal with the basics...

Please show from certain NT teaching why this cannot be true.

 

[watcher2013]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Please show from certain NT teaching why this cannot be true.

the issue about the bride has been discussed in this post:
1. Post 224 page 12, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/85116-bride-christ-12.html#post1422501
The Bride of the Lamb is not the same as the Church, but the Price for the Church. (Revelation 3:12)
2. Post 228 page 12, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/85116-bride-christ-12.html#post1422746
The Price, the wife, the Bride the New Jerusalem is not only for the Church but also for the Patriarchs and Prophets. (Hebrews 11)
3. Post 259, page 13 http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/85116-bride-christ-13.html#post1425218
The Church has never been forsaken and desolated while Jerusalem was. (Isaiah 62)
(New) Jerusalem sons (children) shall marry Jerusalem (Isaiah 62)
God as the Bridegroom and Jerusalem son (children) as a young man, is a parallel fulfilment of Jesus as (the bridegroom) being the Head, and the Church his body (young man) and the NEW JERUSALEM,THE WIFE, THE BRIDE, THE CITY OF GOD. (Isaiah 62)
4. Post 287 page 15, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/85116-bride-christ-15.html#post1426565
The New Jerusalem is also the City of God and Not the Church. (Isaiah 60, Revelation 21)
Therefore The Church is not the Bride; it is not the New Jerusalem and it is not the City of God.
So what is the Church?
The Bible directly identified the Church as the Body of Christ , post 162 page 9 http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/85116-bride-christ-9.html#post1416442
Nowhere in the Bible can you find directly that the Church is the Bride.
Even though we have this truth, some will continue to defend their unsupported belief and contend.
Why?
Maybe because some holds the doctrine about the timing of the rapture and their teaching was based on the story of the Jewish wedding and the Bride.
Would you choose a story in place of than the truth????
Having said that,
Can a Man be married to his work???
A figure of speech, not because the Man’s wife is his work, but because the Man is always at work or addicted to work or the Man work too much...etc.
Applying the same figure of speech:
I can also say that the Church is espoused to Christ not because it is the Bride or the husband, but because the Church is his body and they are one.
The Figure of language is about the synecdoche (from konroh) of “MARRIAGE”
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
This Marriage is about living with each other and becoming one.
At the marriage they will become one...
From the very beginning that was the purpose...God dwelling with his people and this will be fulfilled.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
The New Jerusalem shall be inhabited.

 

[Elin]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

the issue about the bride has been discussed in this post:

It is certain NT teaching that the church is the wife of Christ (Eph 5:30-32) and his body (Eph 5:28)
in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union.

It is likewise certain NT teaching that the church is the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:18, 22; Gal 4:26).

In addition, the OP presents certain NT teaching which locates the rapture in conjunction with
the general resurrection,
the final judgment and
regeneration of all things in the new heavens and new earth
at the end of time.

No matter how voluminous it may be, private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles
does not enjoy authority to unseat the certain and unequivocal NT teaching above.

 

[Atwood]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

It is likewise certain NT teaching that the church is the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:18, 22; Gal 4:26).

Those passages do not say that the Church is the New Jerusalem. The only one passage I know of that seems to suggest it is in Revelation where to behold the New Jeru seems to be to behold the Bride of Christ. But even there, there verbal declaration is not made.

[/quote]In addition, the OP presents certain NT teaching which locates the rapture in conjunction with
the general resurrection,
the final judgment[/quote]

Well Elin, I am unaware of any singular "final judgment" in the Bible. If you have a ref to "final judgment," kindly post the verse.
In the NT we do find ref to 3 distinct judgments: the Bema Judgment Seat of Christ for the Church, the Sheep/Goat/My Brethren judgment in Mat 25, & the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation.

and
regeneration of all things in the new heavens and new earth
at the end of time.

There again, I am unaware of any passage that speaks of "the end of time." If you have it, kindly post it. Some English translations may give "time shall be more more," for what is really "there shall be no more delay."

No matter how voluminous it may be, private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles
does not enjoy authority to unseat the certain and unequivocal NT teaching above [sic; the teaching or private theories above, are not unequivocal; one may indeed equiver over some of it].

Well then, I suppose you will never again post an opinion on what the Bible teaches, cause that would be your private interp? As a matter of fact there is this spiritual gift of teaching which some Christians have. Moreover, if you want to avoid a "private" interp, be sure to consider the context well and correlate a passage/teaching with the rest of scripture. Also, as 1 John says, all Christians have an anointing for understanding, and as John 10 says, the sheep have the ability to recognize the voice of the shepherd.

 

[Atwood]

More than 1 Kingdom of God in the Bible

having carefully considered all the passages, The above verse has been shown to you to show "a kingdom" wherein Christ shall reign and after which he shall deliver the "same kingdom" to the Father....
I do not know what prove you still need...I think that proves a kingdom wherein Christ shall reign...

Now its your turn show your wisdom...and share what did we missed????

Watcher,
The issue is not that there is a Kingdom, but the claim that there is but one Kingdom of God.
There is a kingdom which is future in Dan 2:44.

But I think anyone who looks at the OT use (for starters) will find that there is this universal Kingdom of God (His sovereign reign) and also a predicted Davidic Kingdom for Israel -- not the same things at all. The Church is a Kingdom of Priests; I think that sets us apart from the Davidic Kingdom. So we are now working on 3.

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, And his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed; and his dominion shall be even unto the end.


Thine, O Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Jehovah, and thou art exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come of thee, and thou rulest over all; and in thy hand is power and might


Jehovah hath established his throne in the heavens;
And his kingdom ruleth over all.

How about a 4th as Historical Israel?'

Huram said moreover, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with discretion and understanding, that should build a house for Jehovah, and a house for his kingdom.


he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of Jehovah over Israel.

 

[PlainWord]

Looks like no Rapture for these Christians in Iraq. Guess Great Tribulation for them meant exactly what it's always meant, persecution and death even by beheading:

Rep. Wolf: ISIS Targeting Christians 'for Extinction'

Republican Congressman Frank Wolf gave a passionate speech on the House floor on Tuesday accusing the militant jihadist group ISIS of genocide for "systematically targeting Christians and other religious minorities in Iraq for extinction."

"I believe that what is happening to the Christian community in Iraq is genocide,” said the Virginia legislator, who is leaving office in January after 34 years in Congress. “I also believe it is a 'crime against humanity.'"

ISIS (the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) has already seized control of vast areas of the two war-torn nations. It issued a decree that Christians had to convert to Islam, pay a tax, or be killed.

"Last Thursday [July 17], the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria gave the few remaining Christians in Mosul until Saturday to leave or be killed," Wolf said.
"On June 16, for the first time in 1,600 years, there was no Mass said in Mosul."
Before the American invasion of Iraq in 2003, about 130,000 Christians lived in Mosul, but only a handful remain there now, according to CNS News.

Wolf quoted from a letter sent to the president in June, signed by 55 members of Congress, urging Obama to "prioritize additional security support for especially vulnerable populations, notably Iraq's ancient Christian community."
The letter referred to a BBC article describing "summary execution, beheadings, and even crucifixions" by ISIS, which now calls itself simply the Islamic State.

Wolf told his House colleagues: "Absent immediate action, we will most certainly witness the annihilation of an ancient faith community from the lands they've inhabited for centuries.
"Where is the Obama administration?"

Iraq's ambassador to the United States is also urging the administration to intervene, calling for air strikes to "protect Iraqi borders against the further influx of terrorists from Syria."

Ambassador Lukman Faily pointed to the Muslim extremists targeting Christians, and called for strikes against terrorist camps and supply convoys.