When does the rapture occur?

PlainWord · Jul 27, 2014

Let me ask you something, can Paul be in two places at the same time, while he was alive or even now as a soul?

Let me ask you another question, if the Rapture had occurred during Paul's lifetime, would he have considered himself worthy to be taken or would he fear being left behind; not having made the grade?

PlainWord · Jul 27, 2014

If this is the Rapture and it comes first BEFORE the Tribulation...

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

... and this comes AFTER the Rapture at Jesus Second Coming...

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

...Then why is Paul putting himself in both groups????

By very definition, it are only those who did NOT have Faith at the time of the Rapture who are left behind to endure the Great Tribulation. Would Paul EVER consider himself and his brethren in Thessalonica has lacking faith and being unworthy of the Rapture?? Why on GOD'S GREEN EARTH would Paul be telling believers that they need to be watching and be sober so that the Day of the Lord not overtaken them as a thief in the night if they were true believers? They wouldn't even be here to worry about the day of the Lord, they would be gone in the Rapture.

Transition? What a joke. A transition would go something like this, "Guys, you want to be in the first group taken gloriously off to heaven so that you don't have to suffer tribulation that is coming to the second group who are not saved in time." Now that would have been a useful thing to say - but it isn't said ANYWHERE.

PlainWord · Jul 27, 2014

Hoffco said:

I understand the beatitudes just fine. Thanks for helping me prove my point. The GM are defined as being hungry and thirsty so they were seeking righteousness, they meant well.

Do you understand this?

John 6:35 NKJV

And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

The GM are dead, in heaven, and still they hunger and thirst and they are crying. By fact, they cannot be literally hungry and thirsty because they are now souls in heaven with no physical bodies. They can't literally be crying either thus these are spiritual terms. There is one more spiritual term used that is a mystery that I solved.

16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;

17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Now follow the exact order:

1. Hunger
2. Thirst
3. Sun shall not strike them
4. Tears or Crying

Now turn to Isaiah 65 to solve the "Sun shall not strike" riddle.

13 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed;

14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit.

The order is the same in both passages. The timing is right. This is Isaiah 65, the period just before the millennium is discussed. The GM are therefore:

1. Hungry
2. Thirsty
3. Ashamed
4. Crying

What did the GM do to cause them to be ashamed and crying? There is only one thing mentioned by Christ in Mat 24 happening at the time - they were deceived into worshiping the False One. They went out instead of staying in as Christ commanded. Therefore they bowed down to the slaughter, hundreds of millions of Christians from all over the globe - killed.

But they will be forgiven and restored.

17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

The Lamb will (future tense) shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of water. These fountains are in the new heaven, the new Jerusalem to come. This is where the Lamb will take them.

Rev 22:

1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

So although the GM messed up and were deceived by cunning Satan, the story ends beautifully.

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

The Elect, however, are NOT part of the GM. They are the faithful, the patient, who did NOT go out after the False One. They saw through Satan's Rapture lie and his miracles. They waited for the real Messiah to come. They endured. They came when called. They obeyed. They will not enter heaven hungry, thirsty, ashamed and crying. They will instead be rejoicing and be glad of heart.

Elin · Jul 27, 2014

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Atwood said:

Study Heb 12:18 ff; Rev 21:9-10 again.
Gal 4:26 links the church with the New Jerusalem

Your hermeneutic is past insufficient.
There is no "verbal declaration" of trinity. . .or sovereignty of God. . .or relationship with God,
yet they are basic Biblical teaching.

. . .as well as many other things, which are too numerous for me to explain.

See Heb 9:27-28; Mt 25, which according to certain NT teaching would be the judgment of Rev.

See the early church Apostles' Creed.

You were also unaware of the meaning of "apostasy."
See Ac 21:21.

So you think the regeneration (re-creation) of all things (Mt 19:28), when
creation is liberated from its bondage to decay (Ro 8:21)
which is necessarily after the ravages of a tribulation,
in the new heavens and new earth, where there is no death (Rev 21:4)
because it is eternity, is not the end of time?

As I've said previously, there are just too many things of which you are "unaware"
because of such poor apprehension of the NT, which would require explanation of
large amounts of the NT.

Perhaps someone will do that for you.

Which does not exclude me.

PlainWord · Jul 27, 2014

The "Servants" in Isaiah 65 are compared and contrasted with those who disobeyed and did evil before God. In this case, "Servants" are the faithful Jewish descendants. See Isaiah 41:

8 "But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend.

9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its farthest regions, And said to you, 'You are My servant, I have chosen you and have not cast you away:

See where these Jews (144K) are coming from?? Not within the confines of national Israel but from all over the globe.

We have a clear compare and contrasting passage in Isaiah 65 and also in Rev 7. The 144K are compared and contrasted with the Great Multitude in Heaven. Compare the 144K to the Servants of Isaiah 65. The 144K are descendants of Judah which God selects from all over the globe.

9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.

These groups are the same!!

1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.

2 "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

God has chosen a select group of faithful, of Jewish descent, from all over the globe, who could literally be any of us. Who among us can trace our ancestry back 2,500 years? I can't even go back to 1850!!

So clearly the servants of Isaiah 65 and the 144K of Rev 7 are the same. If they are the same logic dictates that the "unfaithful" of Isaiah 65 are the same as the Great Multitude of Revelation 7. Both passages are using COMPARE and CONTRAST techniques to teach us.

God gets the glory when??? When He uses a small group to do amazing things that they are not capable of doing on their own. See the example of Gideon from Judges 7 who started out with 32,000 troops. What did God say about the number?

2 And the Lord said to Gideon, "The people who are with you are too many for Me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel claim glory for itself against Me, saying, 'My own hand has saved me.'

The number was cut down to 300, less than 1%!! What did God use as a test?

"Everyone who laps from the water with his tongue, as a dog laps, you shall set apart by himself; likewise everyone who gets down on his knees to drink."

6 And the number of those who lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, was three hundred men; but all the rest of the people got down on their knees to drink water.

Those who lapped like dogs did NOT keep watch. Those who cupped their hands kept watch as they drank. This is the same example as those today who run out when they say Christ is Here verses those who know the False Christ comes first and they instead stay and keep watch. Even the percentages are interesting. 300/32,000 is 0.94%. There are approx 15.3MM Jews in the world, 144K/15.3MM is also 0.94%.

Wake up Pre-tribbers. Don't go rushing out for the first supernatural person who appears with "angels" to take you to your rapture because they will be taking you to the slaughter instead - and God allows it. You will bow down to Satan thinking He's the Christ. You will fail this HOUR OF TESTING all because you did not listen to the correct order of appearances given by Christ and Paul.

Atwood · Jul 27, 2014

Tangential Issue: How Many Kingdoms of God are There?

The concept of The Kingdom of God is relevant to the Rapture. So let's think about the claim that there is but one "Kingdom of God."

Is that compatible with these scriptures:
"The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Here entering the Kingdom appears to be future. "Heavenly"? Does that mean Heaven itself?

Contrast that with

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever."

That one looks like a kingdom on earth.

Then there was the prediction or ideal for Israel:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

Yet Israel became a nation that had a special class of priests, the Aaronic priesthood.

And in Revelation we find apparently the Church called a kingdom of priests:

from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with the clouds;

"Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth."

Instead of Israel, here is it "of every tribe . . . , and nation."

"and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

John 18 has:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

He speaks of His kingdom with "is," as if it then existed, but was not "of this world" . . . now -- leaving the door open for it to be "of this world" in the future.

Col 1:13 is the Kingdom the Church here?

"giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;"

Does it not appear to you that the Lord has distinct spheres of operation, distinct kingdoms? BTW, the Greek word, basileia does not mean primarily "a territory pertaining to a king," but "reign."
----------------------------
BDAG Lexicon:
[β. = abbreviation for βασιλεία = basileia;
Lexicon uses Greek letters sometimes for numbers in listing items in sequence;
instead of using 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7; Lexicon may use α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ (alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, zeta -- it should use F [digamma], but does not.)

βασιλεία, a term relating to royal administration
1. the act of ruling
a. gener. kingship, royal power, royal rule
λαβεῖν ἑαυτῷ βασιλείαν obtain royal power (for oneself)
Lk 19:12, 15;

without dat. Rv 17:12;
δοῦναί τινι τὴν β. vs. 17;
ἔχειν β. ἐπί τινων vs. 18;
ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν he gave us royal jurisdiction1:6; cp. 5:10;

royal rule Lk 1:33; 22:29;
23:42 v.l. (ἐν τῇ β. σου in your royal power);
Ac 1:6; Hb 1:8 (Ps 44:7);
1 Cor 15:24 .
—Hb 11:33;

b. esp. of God’s rule the royal reign of God
(usually rendered ‘kingdom of God’, and oft. understood as royal realm but with dilution of the primary component of reigning activity),

a chiefly eschatological concept, beginning to appear in the prophets, elaborated in apocalyptic passages (Mi 4:7f; Ps 102:19; 144:11–13; Da 3:54; 4:3)
and taught by Jesus.

The expressions vary;
β. τοῦ θεοῦ and τῶν οὐρανῶν [kingdom of God & of the heavens] have essentially the same mng., since Israelites used οὐρανός (-οί) as well as other circumlocutions for θεός
(cp. Mt 19:23f);
the latter term may also emphasize the heavenly origin and nature of the reign.

— SAalen, NTS 8, ’61/62, 215–40 (‘house’ or ‘community’ of God);
GLadd, JBL 81, ’62, 230–38 (‘realm’);
FNötscher, Vom A. zum NT ’62, 226–30 (ethical).

α. β. τῶν οὐρανῶν [kingdom of the heavens] mostly in Mt: 3:2; 4:17; 5:3, 10, 19f al.; otherw. J 3:5 v.l.

β. β. τοῦ θεοῦ [kingdom of God] Mt 6:33; 12:28; 21:31, 43; Mk 1:15; 4:11, 26, 30 al.; Lk 4:43; 6:20; 7:28; 8:1 al.; Ac 1:3; 8:12; 14:22; 19:8; 28:23, 31; J 3:3, 5;
Ro 14:17 (defined as δικαιοσύνη, εἰρήνη, χαρά [righteousness, peace, joy]);

1 Cor 4:20 al.;
β. θεοῦ 1 Cor 6:10, cp. 9; 15:50; Gal 5:21;
β. τοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ θεοῦ Eph 5:5;
γ. β. τοῦ πατρός Mt 13:43; 26:29.
δ. β. αὐτοῦ (=τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου [of the son of man]) Mt 13:41; Lk 24:26 v.l.; cp. Col 1:13.

ε. β. τοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν Δαυίδ [of our father David] Mk 11:10,
since the Davidic kgdm. is to be reestablished under the Son of David, the Messiah (cp. Is 9:5f; Jer 23:5f).

ζ.ἡ β. αὐτοῦ (=κυρίου) ἡ ἐπουράνιος 2 Ti 4:18;
η. αἰώνιος β. τοῦ κυρίου [eternal kingdom of the Lord] 2 Pt 1:11

—The greatest blessings conceivable are found in the β. Mt 13:44f.

The foll. expr. refer to obtaining it = participate in its benefits: δέχεσθαι [receive] Mk 10:15;
διδόναι [give] Lk 12:32;
εἰσέρχεσθαι εἰς τὴν β. [enter into the kingdom] Mt 5:20; 7:21; 18:3; 19:23; Mk 10:23ff; Lk 24:26 P75; J 3:5; Ac 14:22;

ἑτοιμάζειν [to prepare] Mt 25:34;
εὔθετον εἶναι τῇ β. Lk 9:62;
εὑρεθῆναι εἰς τὴν β. Hs 9, 13, 2;
ζητεῖν [to seek] Mt 6:33; Lk 12:31;
καταξιοῦσθαι τῆς β. [to be counted worthy of the kingdom] 2 Th 1:5;
κληρονομεῖν [to inherit] Mt 25:34; 1 Cor 6:9f; 15:50;
cp. κληρονόμος τῆς β. Js 2:5;
μαθητεύεσθαι τῇ β. Mt 13:52;
μεθιστάναι εἰς τὴν β. Col 1:13;
φθάνει ἡ β. ἐπί τινα Lk 11:20.

The phrase ὁρᾶν τὴν β. see the kgdm.=‘realize the fulfillment of God’s promises to Israel’ occurs Mk 9:1; Lk 9:27; J 3:3;

The mysteries of the kgdm. can be revealed to those for whom they are intended Mt 13:11; Mk 4:11;

διαγγέλλειν Lk 9:60;
διαμαρτυρεῖσθαι Ac 28:23;
κηρύσσειν καὶ εὐαγγελίζεσθαι Lk 8:1; sim. 16:16;
cp. κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς β. Mt 4:23; 9:35; 24:14; κηρύσσειν τὴν β. Lk 9:2; Ac 28:31;
λαλεῖν περὶ τῆς β. Lk 9:11.

Keep fr. entering: κλείειν Mt 23:13; cp. κλεῖδες τῆς β. 16:19; αἴρειν ἀπό τινος 21:43.

—Spoken of as present Mt 12:28; Lk 11:20, perh. also 17:20f (see s.v. ἐντός).

Viewed as future, but close at hand
ἤγγικεν ἡ β. [has come near] Mt 3:2; 10:7; Mk 1:15; Lk 10:9, 11; perh. Mk 1:15;

ἐγγύς ἐστιν [is near] Lk 21:31;
ἔρχεται Mt 6:10; Mk 11:10; Lk 11:2; 17:20;
μέλλει ἀναφαίνεσθαι 19:11;
προσδέχεσθαι τὴν β. Mk 15:43;

Conceived of as a banquet:
ἀνακλιθῆναι ἐν τῇ β. Mt 8:11;
sim. 26:29; Mk 14:25; Lk 13:28f; 22:16, 18, 30;
cp. the parables 14:15ff; Mt 22:2ff.

Participants in it are called υἱοὶ τῆς β. Mt 8:12 (of mere external connection); 13:38.

Prerequisite for participation is μετάνοια [change of mind] Mt 4:17; Mk 1:15;

the willingness to become like children Mt 18:3f; 19:14; Mk 10:14f; Lk 18:16f.

Only uprightness will inherit the β. Mt 5:20.

Degrees and grades 5:19; 18:1, 4.

The prosperous have difficulty entering 19:23f; Mk 10:23–25; Lk 18:24f (cp. vs. 29),

those who persist in sin have no prospects at all Mt 13:24ff, 36ff, 47ff.

—Paul thinks of the β. as someth. that effects changes in pers. resulting in righteousness, peace (w. God) and joy Ro 14:17.

It manifests itself in deeds, not in words 1 Cor 4:20.
Those committed to sin will not inherit it 6:9f; Gal 5:21; Eph 5:5 (cp. 2 Cl 9:6);

the latter passages show that for Paul the kgdm. is essentially future, since Christians await the complete victory of the spirit over the flesh. Cp. also 2 Ti 4:1.

Flesh and blood will not inherit it, i.e. bodies under the direction of the spirit of Christ are required for entrance 1 Cor 15:50.

None other than God calls people into it 1 Th 2:12.

2. territory ruled by a king, kingdom
Mt 12:25f; 24:7; Mk 3:24; 6:23; 13:8; Lk 11:17f; 21:10;

In the account of the temptation Mt 4:8; Lk 4:5.

Hoffco · Jul 27, 2014

Good morning Atwood, I see you on the attendance list. You and I and 5 guests; So i will share some random thoughts. Hoffco

Hoffco · Jul 27, 2014

Re: Tangential Issue: How Many Kingdoms of God are There?

To Atwood and guests, My reading of the Bible tells me that God rules over all, but Satan is allowed to be the god of this world, under Gods supervision. God, Jesus has always had His Spiritual Kingdom, the Church of God. BUT, then, we must see that some day Jesus will take over the kingdoms of this phy. world and rules this earth for 1,000yrs.. So, I would say. that gives God two kingdoms, He is Sovereign over ALL. love Hopffco

Hoffco · Jul 27, 2014

Re: Tangential Issue: How Many Kingdoms of God are There?

Someone asked about the nature of the epistles, do they address only Christians? I think, NO. Paul often speaks to the unsaved. Hebrews talks alot of the lost of Israel. Most Israel did not have saving faith nor a true obedient faith, so they were mostly LOST. Hoffco

Hoffco · Jul 27, 2014

Re: Tangential Issue: How Many Kingdoms of God are There?

Our attendance is still the same. How someone can think that there will be a lot of Christians missing the Rapture is beyond me. And How they think these "left behind ones" could get saved, is beyond me.! Once Jesus raptures the TRUE Church, the only people left behind are the 144,000 Jews , saved by God's seal. They will all be killed, So, when Jesus comes back to rule this earth, there will be NO saved on the earth. And the GM of rev 7, are all the saved in Heaven. at that time. Hoffco

Hoffco · Jul 27, 2014

Re: Tangential Issue: How Many Kingdoms of God are There?

You all must be on your lunch break,LOL. Our worship service was awesome yesterday, Sunday. Our little room was full. My youth choir was great, My wife and the s.s. teachers are doing a great job. we have our ups and down days, as cross culture marriage are tough, I get a bit intimidated, maybe , frustrated, at times. not being able to enter into their conversations. My service is English, my wife translates some, but is not comfortable doing so, lack of english skill. Hoffco

Hoffco · Jul 27, 2014

Re: Tangential Issue: How Many Kingdoms of God are There?

our urban poor village is in the big city of Davao, but isolated enough to be more rural, but very small lots,100 sq. meters. My house lot is 280 sq m. bigger than normal, with two building and a bid garage between the houses. the houses will be 2 stories soon. I have chickens and rabbit on the concrete roof. I love it here. thousands of people to minister to. Love Hoffco You could come and visit us, bring lot of money to finish our buildings.

Jason0047 · Jul 27, 2014

PlainWord said:

Like all people, Paul's physical body could be in one place and his spiritual body and mind could be another. However, please be up front with me and stop beating around the bush and just tell me what you are getting at, my friend.

One of the major problems I have with those views that deny a Pre-Trib Rapture is that they have to deny every single passage that talks about Christ's imminent return. For even Christ said to watch for you will not know the day or the hour. However, if you think it is coming at a later time (In which you think it says) then you are denying Christ's words to watch and be ready at any hour or day. If one were to deny these passages, then they would be denying the very words of our Lord. In fact, he says there are consequences if you are not watching and waiting for His imminent return (Luke 12:46). For Jesus stressed that He will come in an hour you think not (Luke 12:40). So how can you know the time He is coming if He said He is coming at a time that He says you will not know?

Also, the New Testament writers often wrote of Christ’s “appearing,” and they never failed to convey the sense that this could happen imminently. “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming” (1 John 2:28; cf. 3:2; Col 3:4; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 5:4).

All those texts suggest that in the early church expectation of Christ’s imminent return ran high. A solid conviction that Christ could return at any time permeates the whole NT. When the apostle Paul described the Lord’s coming for the church, he used personal pronouns that show he clearly was convinced he himself might be among those who would be caught up alive to meet the Lord: “We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord … . we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess 4:15, 17, emphasis added). Paul obviously looked for Christ to return in his lifetime. He furthermore made it plain that a watchful, hopeful expectancy about Christ’s Second Coming is one of the godly attitudes divine grace teaches all believers, for Paul also said, “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:11–13, emphasis added).

Source:
Is Christ’s Return Imminent?

Jason0047 · Jul 27, 2014

Jason0047 said:

In other words, the person who denies a Pre-Trib Rapture has a version of watching that includes looking for the signs for his return. But this does not work because you can live life however you like and be lazy and complacent until you see the signs whereby you can then make yourself ready for His return. But this will not work, though. For Jesus said, the Son of man cometh at an hour you think not."

Yet the "Non-Pre-Trib believer" thinks they know better than Jesus' words here.

GaryA · Jul 27, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Jesus Himself said the words recorded in Matthew 24:29-31 / Mark 13:24-27 / Luke 21:25-27.

Why does a pre-trib person ignore the clear statement of passages of scripture such as these?

Ukorin · Jul 27, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Scripture also point to us recognizing the "signs of the times". Imminence is for the unbeliever.
It will take the unbelievers by surprise, but the believers will be not be surprised.

Why would you think that mid/post trib would inspire laziness in a Spirit led Believer?
I sure don't do good only because I am afraid the Rapture or death will catch me off guard. That is the attitude of unbelievers.

I am a mid-trib/pre-wrath (which is actually post trib, because the Trib really seems to be only the first 3.5 years, and the wrath[Day of the Lord] the 2nd 3.5 years).
I am pursuing holiness and good works because I love my Lord, and He showed me how to love others. I prepare myself for His coming, which is a lifelong preparation.

Not knowing the day or hour doesn't mean that there won't be signs beforehand. He told us that there would be.

watcher2013 · Jul 27, 2014

Re: More than 1 Kingdom of God in the Bible

Atwood said:

You should have read the conversation between Elin and I before you asked us proof that there is 1 kingdom:

The kingdom we discussed was the kingdom wherein Christ shall reign...

Solomon has nothing to do with this kingdom...

David's kingdom has long been gone...

It is predicted that Christ Shall sit on David's throne....is different from predicting a future Davidic kingdom for Israel (David kingdom never ceased from war)

"the church is a kingdom of priests separate from Davidic kingdom"?

Are there Jews in the Church???? are they separate from the kingdom wherein Christ shall reign?

Again you should have read the context of the discussion before asking proof...

Hoffco · Jul 27, 2014

To all pre tribers. It is one thing to say, the return of Jesus COULd be imminent any time,, But to say, It is imminent is a lie; because it did not happen, so it was not imminent.! And the Church has suffered Tribulation for 2,000 yrs, actually, the Church started facing persecution when Abel was killed by Cain. "The Tribulation " is now and "The Great Tribulation" will be Jacob's trouble,for Israel. Therefore, the Rapture is after The Tribulation But before The Great Tribulation.

Love Hoffco

PlainWord · Jul 28, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Stop using this idea of immanency to invent an additional return not taught. It has been nearly 2,000 years. What is immanent about that? Perhaps Christ just wanted us all to live as if it could be our last day on earth.

But you do what all other Pre-Tribbers do, you dodge the difficult questions by invoking another doctrine where you also lack scripture support. It's all conjecture... IMMANENCY, PRE-TRIB RAPTURE = CONJECTURE!!

I posed a serious question and you avoided it. Here is is again. Paul included himself (and the Thessalonians) by using inclusive words in both 1 Thes 4 and 5 as well as in 2 Thes 2. If Paul really taught a Pre-Trib Rapture (which he doesn't because nowhere does he give the timing as before the trib nor does he discuss two returns) how can Paul or the Thessalonians be included in the Second Coming? Why would they be waiting for the Second Coming if they are to be Raptured??? I have NEVER heard a good explanation for this, just nonsensical feeble explanations.

Jason0047 · Jul 29, 2014

No, Jesus said you will not know the day or the hour. You either believe Him or you don't.

When does the rapture occur?

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