Where are the sun, moon, and stars?

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KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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@GaryA

Eze 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
UNDER THE FIRMAMENT. The sky being displayed as a backdrop upon their heads.

Eze 1:23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.
UNDER THE FIRMAMENT which is to say under the sky, were their wings.

Eze 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
UNDER THE FIRMAMENT Ezekiel could hear their wings flapping.

Eze 1:25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.
UNDER THE FIRMAMENT a voice came from the firmament above their heads, from the sky.

Eze 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
ABOVE THE FIRMAMENT that was above their heads - the sky. Ezekiel saw GOD'S THRONE.

I've shown you from Genesis, the Psalms and Ezekiel that there are at least TWO FIRMAMENTS.
The FIRMAMENT OF THE EARTH and the FIRMAMENT OF THE HEAVEN.

Please take your own advice and start believing the bible for it REALLY SAYS, instead of twisting it to fit what has to be THE DUMBEST conspiracy theory I have ever heard of.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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I've shown you from Genesis, the Psalms and Ezekiel that there are at least TWO FIRMAMENTS.
No you haven't - there is only one 'firmament'.

Show me specifically where you are getting the 2nd firmament...?

Even in your last post, all I see is one.
 

GaryA

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ABOVE THE FIRMAMENT that was above their heads - the sky. Ezekiel saw GOD'S THRONE.
Did Ezekiel see God's throne from a zillion light-years away - or, did he see it "just right up there" beyond the sky, atmosphere, sun, moon, and stars?
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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No you haven't - there is only one 'firmament'.

Show me specifically where you are getting the 2nd firmament...?

Even in your last post, all I see is one.
Yes I agree Ezekiel proves nothing. :)
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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Read Genesis 1:1-20 very carefully. Pay particularly close attention to the word 'firmament'.

What exactly is the firmament?

What is this passage telling you about where the sun, moon, and stars are?

What does the Bible actually say?
As you said, the firmament is the expanse, which resulted in the earth's atmospehere, or as referred unto in Job, the cloud that the LORD covered the earth with.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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Read Genesis 1:1-20 very carefully. Pay particularly close attention to the word 'firmament'.

What exactly is the firmament?

What is this passage telling you about where the sun, moon, and stars are?

What does the Bible actually say?
firmament in the thinking of that culture was a dome over the land. They did not have the concept of a round earth as we do today. In fact, earth simply meant the land or dirt. Look up Cosmetology in Bible Encyclopedias.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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. . . if the "upper" waters were an unimaginable distance away?

"Think about it..."
I think I read somewhere that there is a water vapor even in the outward atmosphere. I think it could be classified as under the Sun.

Earth would seem to be where the waters are gathered together under as specific gravity . The gravity of standing water differs from the air we breath. . getting lesser the closer to the Sun .

In that way I think we could say the Sun is the center of the universe .Earth the center of living waters .
 

GaryA

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No. That is what people imagined at the time based on Genesis 1. Nowadays people imagine different things based on the same text. In the Medieval age they also had imaginations. The Word doesn't change, but people's perceptions are influenced by the information they start with. Cultures always read into what is said in the Bible at all times in history including ancient Hebrews... Just saying... I am not against you, you were simply bringing up information.
I believe one should look at what is written in the Bible, and try hard just to take what the Bible says without adding mental images to it. I honestly feel like I am way closer to the true perception when I paint creation in a fractal way without trying to comprehend it, than when I try to imagine it cerebrally. Especially Genesis 1 describes Creation on levels that are hard to comprehend even today, lest thousands of years ago. We suffer from creating imaginations, and slapping them onto what is actually said in the Word. This is why people argue and have different perceptions all the time. They start off the assumption-charged text.
I will give you that how they imagined it has some preeminence over how it was imagined later, because it's likely closer to the truth (there was less info to un-learn and a more accepting it as it is). I do not believe this is the full understanding though.
Thousands of years ago, they were not "brainwashed" from birth such that - when they looked up towards the sky (as well as [at] other things in nature) - they refused to believe what they actually saw with their own eyes - instead, believing the lie they have been told all of their life. I believe that the thinking was a whole lot less complicated than it is today.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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No. This is not just what the Hebrews read into the text. This was their cultural background. YHWH reveals Himself through our existing cultural framework and assumptions unless they conflict with the Truth He wishes to reveal. His point in Genesis 1 is not to provide the Hebrews with a thorough scientific model of how the universe works and was formed. If it was, Scripture would be 10 times longer than it is now, and He would have never gotten to His actual point and we would all still be lost with no knowledge of Him.

His point is to introduce who He is, who we are, and why we are here. That is what is important and all debates about the when, what, and how of Creation are pointless distractions from the Truth the Scripture is trying to reveal to us.
Actually, God achieved it with simplicity and elegance.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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Psa 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

Gods sanctuary is heaven right? That is the FIRMAMENT of his power.

Are you saying that Gods sanctuary (heaven) is under this upper dome of water that covers the earth?
Remember that the base definition of 'firmament' is 'expanse'. ;)

:)
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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In that way I think we could say the Sun is the center of the universe
Of course another way it could be said the Sun sits in the midst of heaven by the Genesis model of the world.

However, the Genesis model has been virtually eradicated from theological discourse that it is met with contempt and rebuke that
from the time the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind:


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And God saw the light ;) but then again those who read the Bible to hear the word of God aren't going to believe someone who reads the Bible to make sure he heard what the Son said to him correctly.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. Josh 10:13
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
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"And God called the firmament Heaven" (part of Genesis 1:8)

So the firmament is Heaven. But what is Heaven?

"Heaven is my throne" (part of Acts 7:49)

What is God's throne?

Well, Jesus is in the midst of it: "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them"

God's kingdom, however, is a spiritual one which flesh and blood does not inherit (1 Corinthians 15:50). So, just as the daystar (Jesus) arises in our hearts (2 Peter 1:19), God is on the throne of the true believers' hearts. Notice that in Genesis chapter 1 the firmament occupies the midst (that is Jesus' position) and divides (that is what the word of God does): "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." The waters are peoples (Rev 17:15 clues us in to this).

All in all, the verses of Genesis are describing something different from the planet and its atmospheric characteristics. That is not surprising because the entire Bible is written in parable form as we learn from Psalm 78:2 and Mark 4:34.

I noticed some persons saying that there are three heavens. I do not think that this is the case. When Paul speaks of the third heaven he is using the parable word 'third', which is used in the Bible for the true believers (Zechariah 13:9). Thus, he is saying the true believers' heaven. That is simply heaven, which, we have already seen in Genesis, can be called firmament.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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"And God called the firmament Heaven" (part of Genesis 1:8)

So the firmament is Heaven. But what is Heaven?

"Heaven is my throne" (part of Acts 7:49)

What is God's throne?

Well, Jesus is in the midst of it: "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them"

God's kingdom, however, is a spiritual one which flesh and blood does not inherit (1 Corinthians 15:50). So, just as the daystar (Jesus) arises in our hearts (2 Peter 1:19), God is on the throne of the true believers' hearts. Notice that in Genesis chapter 1 the firmament occupies the midst (that is Jesus' position) and divides (that is what the word of God does): "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." The waters are peoples (Rev 17:15 clues us in to this).

All in all, the verses of Genesis are describing something different from the planet and its atmospheric characteristics. That is not surprising because the entire Bible is written in parable form as we learn from Psalm 78:2 and Mark 4:34.

I noticed some persons saying that there are three heavens. I do not think that this is the case. When Paul speaks of the third heaven he is using the parable word 'third', which is used in the Bible for the true believers (Zechariah 13:9). Thus, he is saying the true believers' heaven. That is simply heaven, which, we have already seen in Genesis, can be called firmament.
Heaven, depending upon the word's usage, means the sky or skies. In the story of creation, it is in reference to the sky. It could just as well be the firmament is called the sky.
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
299
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18
Heaven, depending upon the word's usage, means the sky or skies. In the story of creation, it is in reference to the sky. It could just as well be the firmament is called the sky.
Or it could mean what 'heaven' always means in the Bible - 'heaven'. Again, we read: 'Heaven is my throne'. (Acts 7:49), or do you think God did not intend the Bible to fit together as a whole so that words from one book of the Bible have no cohesion with words from another book of the Bible. I am of the opinion that God put it together so that scripture can be compared with scripture throughout, being inspired to fit together by God, its author.

Incidentally, I noticed the original post for this discussion was interested in the sun, moon, and stars. People are sometimes unable to receive the fact that God uses parable language, but perhaps some are aware that the Bible uses these to mean certain entities. For example, the greater light to rule the day, the daystar, is as a bridegroom in the Bible, all pointing to the case that the sun is a picture of Christ. Further, the Bible calls stars pictures of true believers. Further, the lesser light to rule the night, the moon is a picture of the law (Jeremiah 31:35)

Many people think that Psalm 19:1 is about the upper atmosphere and space entities etc: "...The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." However, the term 'heavens' is actually talking about those in Christ. They are the ones who are declaring the glory of God and they are showing his handiwork (they are his creation, his handiwork). It is not talking about planets and such. It is no different with Genesis. It seems at casual surface reading to be about the creation of the universe, but a look at the terms used indicates that it has a parable meaning. For starters, 'let there be light' is talking about Christ. He is the light in the Bible.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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This is just one of the examples of a specific word having more than one definition.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Earth would seem to be where the waters are gathered together under as specific gravity . The gravity of standing water differs from the air we breath.
"Specific gravity" is a scientific term related density of matter.

Gravity on standing water is the same as that on air, but because water is more dense, the effect of gravity is different.

getting lesser the closer to the Sun .
It has nothing to do with proximity to the sun, because if it did, there would be an opposite effect on the side of the earth away from the sun at any moment.

In that way I think we could say the Sun is the center of the universe .Earth the center of living waters .
No, we couldn't. That would be inconsistent with the facts. Please, if you're going to make comments about relating Scripture to the real world, get your facts straight first.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
646
113
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In that way I think we could say the Sun is the center of the universe
No, we couldn't. That would be inconsistent with the facts. Please, if you're going to make comments about relating Scripture to the real world, get your facts straight first.
Interesting that you say they can't say the Sun is the center of the universe if they believe it is. I though the new faith is simply believing that the thing hoped for is true, and now you are telling him to get his facts straight if the scriptures of Genesis were not written by anyone with knowledge of science.

So in what way can a person say the Sun is the center of the universe?
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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For starters, 'let there be light' is talking about Christ. He is the light in the Bible.
So when God is saying let there be light, you claim that he is talking about Christ then? Well, if that is true then when God divided the light are you saying that the Bible is just a half-truth? I don't know.

But as Jesus said to those back during his time, "if you have known me you would have known my Father also" but that was then and this is today, so if you know His Father then you would know right?

If you let your eyes listen then maybe you will see that one must be born of the Spirit and the Word or else there is no truth in them,
then shall thy father and thy mother shall be glad, and she that bare thee shall rejoice as written in the book of Proverbs, chapter 23.

You can see the two in Genesis 1:2, and the two became one as written in verse 3.

Who knows maybe your right,
 
Mar 21, 2009
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New York
I would consider that 'firmament' may represent either the first heaven or the first heaven and second heaven combined as one 'expanse'.


You only say this because you have been taught "vastness-of-space" all your life - it is not a matter of [real] scientific proof.

It is not actually as obvious as you may think.

(BTW - Why are the sun, moon, and stars only literal in Genesis?)

How can you even know with absolute certainty just exactly how far the second heaven reaches?

Other than simply believing what you are told (acting on assumption and blind trust), you cannot know with absolute certainty - because you have not actually conducted your own scientific proof.

So then, it is really a matter of faith...
I don't think the intention was to be a scientific explanation. It is more of a perspective from what we observe. For example in Revelation when stars are falling on the earth like ripened figs they are probably meteorites not literal stars but we call them falling stars even today when we see one. We know what they are, but it is what they look like from our looking up. The sun, moon and stars look like they are in the firmament or vault or what have you and that is enough. We talk about a setting sun even though we know we are the one in motion, so does the bible.