Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

[Elin]

1) you have rejected all the scripture that I laid before you. Each and every one.

2) And YOU inserted the word "immortal".

So, He drove out the man; and He placed Cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."3) You disagree with God. But you do agree with Satan and his lie: "Ye shall not surely die." That is clear.

So you've decided to continue speaking to me?

I've explained to you previously that spiritual death does not mean death of the human spirit itself, but means loss of Holy Spirit life within the human spirit.
Adam lost Holy Spirit life within his spirit the instant he sinned against God, but his spirit itself did not die.
All mankind is born in spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life within their living spirits), but they are not born with dead spirits.
The new birth is Holy Spirit life imparted within their already living spirits.

You are a Bible rejector, there is no doubt about it.

Okay, if my not agreeing with your misunderstanding of OT Scriptures, which you do not see in the light of the NT (Heb 1:1-2), means I am a Bible rejector,

what does it mean when you refuse to answer the following questions on the Scriptures I've laid before you?

God's truth is shown in many ways, by events as well as by examination of Scriptural statements.

1) First, we see an (immortal living) spirit (pneuma; not breath, which is pnoe) returning to its body in Lk 8:55.

All spirits are immortal, divine, angelic, demonic and human.
Spirits don't die, that is a function of physical bodies only.
Spirit are not physical bodies.

2) Then there is what Jesus said:

Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
If their bodies were dead, then what parts of them were conversing together?

Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but did he die when he ate of it?
He continued to live for centuries.

So what did not die (regarding believers), and what did die (regarding Adam)?

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?

3) We find the same thing in the epistles:

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.

Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.

Correct handling of the ten Scriptures above shows that the human spirit is immortal.

Many will teach false doctrine. The Bible warns of it. So Elin,, Like I said, The world will follow you and support you. You will feel good because so many are behind you and support you and uphold you. God will send strong delusion to those who have constantly rejected the Truth despite His many attempts.

I advise you to start your own Thread. Ought to be interesting.

Because you can't deal with NT Scriptures presented above?​

 

[Abiding]

So you've decided to continue speaking to me?

I've explained to you previously that spiritual death does not mean death of the human spirit itself, but means loss of Holy Spirit life within the human spirit.
Adam lost Holy Spirit life within his spirit the instant he sinned against God, but his spirit itself did not die.
All mankind is born in spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life within their living spirits), but they are not born with dead spirits.
The new birth is Holy Spirit life imparted within their already living spirits.



Okay, if my not agreeing with your misunderstanding of OT Scriptures, which you do not see in the light of the NT (Heb 1:1-2), means I am a Bible rejector,

what does it mean when you refuse to answer the following questions on the Scriptures I've laid before you?

God's truth is shown in many ways, by events as well as by examination of Scriptural statements.

1) First, we see an (immortal living) spirit (pneuma; not breath, which is pnoe) returning to its body in Lk 8:55.

All spirits are immortal, divine, angelic, demonic and human.
Spirits don't die, that is a function of physical bodies only.
Spirit are not physical bodies.

2) Then there is what Jesus said:

Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
If their bodies were dead, then what parts of them were conversing together?

Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but did he die when he ate of it?
He continued to live for centuries.

So what did not die (regarding believers), and what did die (regarding Adam)?

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?

3) We find the same thing in the epistles:

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.

Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.

Correct handling of the ten Scriptures above shows that the human spirit is immortal.


Because you can't deal with NT Scriptures presented above?​

new blend

 

[Elin]

new blend

Thanks!

Been a long time comin'.

 

[Vestarena]

Thanks!

Been a long time comin'.

Who said the human spirit isn't immortal? It's the soul that's not immortal. The human spirit is the spirit that comes from God and returns to God, the breath of life that quickens a human being to life; and hence, becomes a living soul through that process. Big confusion here between soul and spirit. Have to get that difference hammered out before you can even broach the subject of the human soul.

Go ahead and enjoy that coffee anyway.

 

[Vestarena]

It just kills me when people pull out that verse that says many people will present false doctrines, cause most generally, the people using that verse seem like they're the ones promoting the false doctrine. Because something has been taught for hundreds of years, is supported by countless theologians along with what we call the orthodox Christian Church does not mean that doctrine has a thing to do with truth.

 

[Elin]

Who said the human spirit isn't immortal? It's the soul that's not immortal. The human spirit is the spirit that comes from God and returns to God, the breath of life that quickens a human being to life;

That is not Biblical.

In the OT Hebrew, "spirit" = ruach and "breath" = nishma (Ge 2:17, 7:22).

In the NT Greek, "spirit" = pneuma, and "breath" = pnoe.

In both the OT and the NT, "the breath of life" is not man's "spirit."

And I am enjoying the coffee, particularly because it came from Abiding.

 

[Laodicea]

That is not Biblical.

In the OT Hebrew, "spirit" = ruach and "breath" = nishma (Ge 2:17, 7:22).

In the NT Greek, "spirit" = pneuma, and "breath" = pnoe.

In both the OT and the NT, "the breath of life" is not man's "spirit."

And I am enjoying the coffee, particularly because it came from Abiding.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The word spirit in this verse is also translated as:-
Wind
Breath
Mind
Blast
Air
etc

 

[Laodicea]

Luke 8:55 KJV
(55) And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
Luke 8:55 GW
(55) She came back to life and got up at once. He ordered her parents to give her something to eat.
Luke 8:55 GNB
(55) Her life returned, and she got up at once, and Jesus ordered them to give her something to eat.

The word spirit is also translated as:-
Ghost-nearly all texts with Ghost refer to the Holy Ghost
Life
Spiritual
wind

1 Corinthians 4:21 KJV
(21) What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

The word spirit in this text is the same word as spirit in Luke 8:55

 

[jkalyna]

new blend

that is some good advice Abiding

 

[Laodicea]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The word spirit in this verse is also translated as:-
Wind
Breath
Mind
Blast
Air
etc

The verse in Ecclesiastes 12:7 is the opposite to the one in Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[danschance]

Would it make any sense to say the breath of God moved over the water? (Gen 1:2)

Does it make any sense if one can lie to breath?

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost

Can a person lie to a thing (tree, brick, stone, wrench, etc)? No, one can only lie to a person.

Would it make any sense to say I holy breath has given us spiritual gifts?

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit (pneuma). 1Cor. 12:4
To another faith by the same Spirit(pneuma); to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit(pneuma); 1Cor. 12:9

Now look at Laodicea's comment on what Pneuma is:

The word spirit in this verse is also translated as:-
Wind
Breath
Mind
Blast
Air
etc

Notice how he fails to mention that Pneuma can be interpreted as spirit. Here is what Strong's defines the greek word "pneuma" as being:

1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Sona) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth

Bottom line is Pneuma can be interpreted as many things and context determines how it should be translated not be one's own ideology. Now the really strange part of this is that SDA does believe man has a spirit but it dies when the body dies and yet they also try to define man's spirit as breath. That is confusing and the scriptures does not support such nonsense.

 

[Laodicea]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV
(21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

These texts do not say that only the righteous go to God at death but all. If you are going to have a conscious spirit in heaven after a person dies then all both good and bad go to heaven.

 

[Christabel]

That is not Biblical.

In the OT Hebrew, "spirit" = ruach and "breath" = nishma (Ge 2:17, 7:22).

In the NT Greek, "spirit" = pneuma, and "breath" = pnoe.

In both the OT and the NT, "the breath of life" is not man's "spirit."

And I am enjoying the coffee, particularly because it came from Abiding.

Well, I don't know about that... the spirit and the soul are obviously not the same thing. So what have we got? Two different vessels for two different consciousness? Or if you believe the soul is immortal, what have you got? Three vessels for the consciousness? Very weird.

 

[Christabel]

So did Jesus have a soul? He obviously had a spirit because He commended it to God when He died on the cross. So where'd His soul go? Don't tell me it descended into hades where He talked to the dead, cause I don't buy it.

 

[Christabel]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV
(21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

These texts do not say that only the righteous go to God at death but all. If you are going to have a conscious spirit in heaven after a person dies then all both good and bad go to heaven.

That's a very good point Laodicea. Never noticed that before. Yes, all spirits apparently go up. Even Hitler's? lol. From that standpoint, it doesn't seem like that spirit is actually the person or their consciousness or whatever, because obviously not everyone's going to heaven.

P.S. It does; however, make you wonder why the spirit of Samuel came up out of the ground to talk with the witch of Endor.

 

[danschance]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV
(21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

These texts do not say that only the righteous go to God at death but all. If you are going to have a conscious spirit in heaven after a person dies then all both good and bad go to heaven.

Once again you have some very poor biblical exegesis. You grab at anything that seems to fit your argument and run with it like a linebacker on crack.

Let's take a look at the first verse in it's context and see if: fits what you claim it does and 2) fits in with the rest of the bible.

1) You claim spirits of all humans go up and back to God who gave it, both the righteous and unrighteous.

Let's post this in it's context.

1Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;2before the sun and the light, the moon and the stars are darkened, and clouds return after the rain;3in the day that the watchmen of the house tremble, and mighty men stoop, the grinding ones stand idle because they are few, and those who look through windows grow dim;4and the doors on the street are shut as the sound of the grinding mill is low, and one will arise at the sound of the bird, and all the daughters of song will sing softly.5Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.6Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.8“Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

What is the author talking about? Many scholars think this section is a poetic way of describing the author getting old and dying.

a) Solomon is speaking of himself in the third person. This was a common way royalty would refer to themselves in Solomon's day. It was common throughout the that area. The entire book of ecclesiastes Solomon is reviewing his life and commenting on the things he learned.

b) The verses above you did not post are poetic way that Solomon is describing the aging process. Here is one link which goes into greater detail on this. Ecclesiastes 12 - Wesley’s Explanatory Notes - Bible Commentary

c) Is Solloman saying every spirit returns to God? Jesus never once taught that. Ellen G White never taught that. Paul never taught that. It is not taught as doctrine in any book of the bible. All it is saying is, in the third person is that Solomon expects to go to Heaven. This is taught in the bible. This is taught by Jesus.

2) The next verse it is even easier to debunk your new found doctrine that every spirit goes to Hell. Again, lets look at it's context.

All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth? Eccl. 3:20-21

a) Take a good look at this verse. King Solomon says Who knows....? Here he is not making a doctrinal statement but is asking a question is anyone knows if the Spirit of man goes up (to heaven) or not. Now if Solomon does not know in chapter 3, he still does not know in Chapter 12.

b) Again we see if this wild theory fits in with the rest of scripture and as before, it does not.

The book of Ecclesiastes is referred to as Poetry and contains a secular view of life. The common thread that runs thru this book is the futility of a secular accomplishments.

Now I would like you to do something for me. Whether or not you agree with my interpretation of these passages that you posted I would like to point out that I have answered them. Now I ask that you return the favor and see if you can answer these two verses.

1) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:8

2) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Phil. 1:21

I have answered your post, would you please answer mine?

 

[Elin]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The word spirit in this verse is also translated as:-
Wind
Breath
Mind
Blast
Air
etc

As the Holy Spirit is referred to as "wind" by Jesus (Jn 3:7-8) because it is an invisible spirit and cannot be seen, as is the human spirit.

 

[Elin]

Luke 8:55 KJV
(55) And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
Luke 8:55 GW
(55) She came back to life and got up at once. He ordered her parents to give her something to eat.
Luke 8:55 GNB
(55) Her life returned, and she got up at once, and Jesus ordered them to give her something to eat.

The word spirit is also translated as:-
Ghost-nearly all texts with Ghost refer to the Holy Ghost
Life
Spiritual
wind

1 Corinthians 4:21 KJV
(21) What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

The word spirit in this text is the same word as spirit in Luke 8:55

Yes, Paul is asking should he go to them with a gentle spirit, that would be referring to the disposition of his own spirit.

The "buckshot approach" seems to be what is most popular in defending this theology.

Find the word anywhere in Scripture, and regardless of its context, use it as a "proof" text.

 

[Elin]

The verse in Ecclesiastes 12:7 is the opposite to the one in Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Yes, because Ge 2:7 refers to physical breath, and Ecc 12:7 refers to a person's living immortal spirit, which is the same word for the person of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Elin]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV
(21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

These texts do not say that only the righteous go to God at death but all. If you are going to have a conscious spirit in heaven after a person dies then all both good and bad go to heaven.

More "buckshot" theology.

Going to God is not the same as going to heaven.
The unrighteous going to God at death is not a good (pleasant) thing, as it is with the righteous.