Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

[Elin]

Read the Leviticus 4 where they poured blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering. The Bible says the life(soul) is in the blood. So blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering is symbolic.

Yes, it is a foreshadow, pattern, copy (Heb 8:5) of Jesus' blood poured out at the base of the cross, the "altar" on which he was sacrificed.

 

[Laodicea]

Nothing but your opinion and no bible verse???
See how silly that sounds? Does it make you want to convert to my way of thinking?


(Sorry Elin, the last post was meant for laodicea as he keeps ramming that line down people's throats.)

All you ever know what to do is slander. You are not a witness by always giving slander

 

[Christabel]

You don't get to make the rules about the kind of statement God must make in revealing is truth.

His truth is shown in many ways, by events as well as by the answers to questions about Scriptural statements.

1) First, we see an immortal spirit (pneuma, not breath, which is pnoe) returning to its body in Lk 8:55.

2) Then there is what Jesus said:

Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
If their bodies were dead, then what parts of them were conversing together?

Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word,he will never see death."

Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but he lived for centuries.

So what died, and what did not die?

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?

3) We find the same thing in the epistles:

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.

Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.

Correct handling of the ten Scriptures above shows that the human spirit is immortal.

In one of the oldest known transcripts, I've heard said that God said to Adam that on the day you eat of that tree, you will start dying. I think much is lost in the translations. And yeah, I do have the right to make the rules when it comes to rational argumentation. God gave me my mind, and I assume He means for me to use it. Otherwise, I could pick any old religion to believe in. Whose reasoning was I to depend on? Yours? I'm actually totally convinced that the soul is not immortal. You never addressed the fact that the only verse in the Bible that addresses how a soul came into being says specifically that when God breathed into Adam the breath of life, Adam BECAME BECAME BECAME, as in he BECAME a living soul. Check out all the other translations. They say things like; Adam became a living being or became a living person. One even says he became a living creature. That means he wasn't a living being/soul/creature until that breath of life (which was NOT the consciousness, but the breath of life that quickened him to life) was breathed into him, and then, again and again, he BECAME a living person! That is enough all by itself! Spirits are the breath of life that returns to God. They have no consciousness! Why would it say the souls of the saints fall asleep in Christ if they're still conscious?

The soul is not the spirit! The New Testament states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. True. But it also says we aren't raised from the dead until the last trump. It also says that in a twinkling of an eye, we arrive at the judgement. Time does not pass in death. A twinkling of an eye is all we will experience. Hence, we will be present with our Lord within a twinkling of an eye. It also could be said that since we fall asleep in Jesus, somehow, in a way beyond our understanding, we are with the Lord. Certainly it is He that holds who we are in His mind. That still doesn't mean we are conscious between the time we die and when we're resurrected. I've explained the best I can. Obviously, you're mind is made up, but so is mine. I'm as sure of this as I am of Christ as my Lord. So we might as well not pursue this any further. For myself? I have to have an understanding of scriptures that does not make it contradict itself. You go your way, I'll go mine.

 

[Elin]

That's about God's anger and fury burning, not fire burning.

You handle the Scriptures loosely.

That is just your opinion. Nothing but an opinion, where is the bible verse?

Doesn't it sound silly when someone says that?

I didn't say that to you, danschance.

I said it to Laodicea.

 

[danschance]

All you ever know what to do is slander. You are not a witness by always giving slander

Slander is a false statement that brings harm to a person. What lie did I tell?

 

[danschance]

I didn't say that to you, danschance.

I said it to Laodicea.

I understand and it was not meant for you. Laodicea is constantly berating others for stating an opinion and not a bible fact. It is getting old as he does the same thing. It had nothing to do with you. My apologies for clicking the wrong button. I enjoy your posts.

 

[HollyLoree]

There's another verse that says, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."

 

[Elin]

In one of the oldest known transcripts, I've heard said that God said to Adam that on the day you eat of that tree, you will start dying. I think much is lost in the translations. And yeah, I do have the right to make the rules when it comes to rational argumentation. God gave me my mind, and I assume He means for me to use it. Otherwise, I could pick any old religion to believe in. Whose reasoning was I to depend on? Yours? I'm actually totally convinced that the soul is not immortal. You never addressed the fact that the only verse in the Bible that addresses how a soul came into being says specifically that when God breathed into Adam the breath of life, Adam BECAME BECAME BECAME, as in he BECAME a living soul. Check out all the other translations. They say things like; Adam became a living being or became a living person. One even says he became a living creature. That means he wasn't a living being/soul/creature until that breath of life (which was NOT the consciousness, but the breath of life that quickened him to life) was breathed into him, and then, again and again, he BECAME a living person! That is enough all by itself! Spirits are the breath of life that returns to God.

That's quite an exegetical leap you make from "spirit" (Heb: ruach, Grk: pneuma) to "breath" (Heb: nishma; Grk: pnoe).

You violate the languages of both the OT Hebrew and the NT Greek in equating them.

They have no consciousness! Why would it say the souls of the saints fall asleep in Christ if they're still conscious?

You are trying to overturn the word of God with your human reasoning.

The soul is not the spirit! The New Testament states that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. True. But it also says we aren't raised from the dead until the last trump. It also says that in a twinkling of an eye, we arrive at the judgement. Time does not pass in death. A twinkling of an eye is all we will experience. Hence, we will be present with our Lord within a twinkling of an eye. It also could be said that since we fall asleep in Jesus, somehow, in a way beyond our understanding, we are with the Lord.

It is not beyond our understanding, because the NT reveals that it is our immortal spirit that is with Jesus.

Certainly it is He that holds who we are in His mind. That still doesn't mean we are conscious between the time we die and when we're resurrected. I've explained the best I can.

I understand your effort, but your explanations are based in human reasoning, and do not agree with the language of either the OT or the NT.

Obviously, you're mind is made up, but so is mine. I'm as sure of this as I am of Christ as my Lord. So we might as well not pursue this any further. For myself? I have to have an understanding of scriptures that does not make it contradict itself. You go your way, I'll go mine.

Peace in Christ Jesus.

Our salvation does not depend on this doctrine.

It depends only on saving faith in the blood of Jesus of Nazareth (Ro 3:25).

 

[Elin]

You don't get to make the rules about the kind of statement God must make in revealing is truth.

His truth is shown in many ways, by events as well as by the answers to questions about Scriptural statements.

And yeah, I do have the right to make the rules

That's good work, if you can get it.

 

[Elin]

There's another verse that says, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."

So if his body is dead, what is still living?

 

[danschance]

The absolute best verse, which shows spirits alive is:
(..And I think RachelBibleStudent posted this earlier.)

26 But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

All but the spiritually blind can see that this verse is clearly saying that Abraham, Issac and Jacob are currently living, NOT DEAD!

 

[hopesprings]

What about that verse that says God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell?? Doesn't that tell us that the soul and body are different?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Our salvation does not depend on this doctrine.

It depends only on saving faith in the blood of Jesus of Nazareth (Ro 3:25).

that is true...though i have found that this and a few other false doctrines are often 'red flags' indicating the presence of much deeper heresies and cultishness...

 

[psalm6819]

Michael50, please ask God to open your mind and heart when you read the Bible. May the Holy Spirit give you wisdom to RIGHTLY divide His Word.

 

[Elin]

that is true...though i have found that this and a few other false doctrines are often
'red flags' indicating the presence of much deeper heresies and coltishness...

Agreed, indeed!

 

[danschance]

All you ever know what to do is slander. You are not a witness by always giving slander

Ok, what did I "slander"? You realize slander is a spoken statement that is a lie meant to cause damage of some sort, right? Libel is written. Either way, what is it you think I said or wrote that is a lie? If I do it all the time, it should be real easy to find one, right?

I am still waiting for your reply....


I Just know in my bones you will reply to this someday.

 

[HollyLoree]

That's good work, if you can get it.

Well now that's the ultimate example of taking a quote out of context. Let me try this again.

Human reasoning is what God gave us to think with. lol. I agree with Christabel in her thinking, and I myself prayed for understanding in this area as well as studied hard before I made up my mind about this. I also talked to many different pastors that believed differently than I do, and others that believe the same as me. And I don't think such thinking is a stretch at all. When the body dies, the spirit that belongs to God returns to God. I don't see that as human consciousness either. Just because you don't agree with that kind of thinking doesn't mean someone who believes that is not arriving at that understanding merely through human reasoning. There's no way to tell where our differences in interpretation comes from. Obviously everyone's gonna think their interpretation came from God. You're actually thinking both a soul and a spirit have a consciousness? So what do we have now? Two different consciousnesses in one mortal body? Oh well. No, our salvation definitely does not depend on this doctrine. It's the eternal torture chamber concept I have the biggest problem with. Now, maybe I don't understand fully about spirits and such and what they involve. I don't know. But boy oh boy oh boy am I ever dead set against this "God's punishment of the wicked involves torture that never ends" belief. That concept I KNOW to be false! So don't even try to talk me into believing that. Yeah, I believe in the punishment of the wicked, and that no one gains eternal life except through Jesus Christ (who alone has eternal life, I might add), but to believe that punishment lasts forever and ever and ever and ever? Nope. Total misunderstanding there. There is no word in English that totally defines the meaning of the original words in Hebrew and Greek. You don't believe me? Right? Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever. Check it out. Samuel's mother brought Samuel as a child to the temple where she said he would stay forever. Is Samuel still there? The fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorreah were said to be eternal. Are they still burning? These are but a few examples. I could post a ton of verses that say-- when you're dead, you're dead.

Do we actually believe the creator of this entire universe would create mere human beings who, if they made the wrong decision in their short little life on earth, would be punished in never ending torment forever and ever and evermore? That's what we believe in as Christians? A God like that? Not me, thank you. Never. That's a crueler belief system then any other I have ever heard of.

 

[HollyLoree]

Agreed, indeed!

And dogmania is a terrible thing. The accuser is almost always the guilty party. If I was to buy into this belief, that the bible actually teaches these things, I would reject the Christian religion as a man-made belief system. Fortunately I don't accept it.

 

[Seriphena]

What about that verse that says God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell?? Doesn't that tell us that the soul and body are different?

Well, considering that when we die, Christ somehow preserves us even with the body dead, I don't think that necessarily means there's a separate entity that's us that continues to exist. I just think this is all over our heads. I just can't reconcile the idea that there's a separate immortal soul somewhere when the dead are raised at the last trump. Why do the dead need to be raised if they're not dead? When Christ said Lazurus was asleep, He obviously meant he was dead because when the disciples said, well hey, if he's sleeping then he'll be alright, Jesus told them Lazurus was dead. So Jesus sees "dead" different than we see "dead". But to us? It's still "dead". I see all this patting each other on the back stuff in here and it makes me laugh. Just because people agree on some doctrine, doesn't make their understanding correct. Consider all sides of an argument, how bout? I think everyone here is trying to find the truth. So let's be a little kinder to each other in these discussions; what do you think? We aren't going to know for sure on a lot of this stuff until the Lord comes and tells us Himself.

 

[danschance]

Well now that's the ultimate example of taking a quote out of context. Let me try this again.

Human reasoning is what God gave us to think with. lol. I agree with Christabel in her thinking, and I myself prayed for understanding in this area as well as studied hard before I made up my mind about this. I also talked to many different pastors that believed differently than I do, and others that believe the same as me. And I don't think such thinking is a stretch at all. When the body dies, the spirit that belongs to God returns to God. I don't see that as human consciousness either. Just because you don't agree with that kind of thinking doesn't mean someone who believes that is not arriving at that understanding merely through human reasoning. There's no way to tell where our differences in interpretation comes from. Obviously everyone's gonna think their interpretation came from God. You're actually thinking both a soul and a spirit have a consciousness? So what do we have now? Two different consciousnesses in one mortal body? Oh well. No, our salvation definitely does not depend on this doctrine. It's the eternal torture chamber concept I have the biggest problem with. Now, maybe I don't understand fully about spirits and such and what they involve. I don't know. But boy oh boy oh boy am I ever dead set against this "God's punishment of the wicked involves torture that never ends" belief. That concept I KNOW to be false! So don't even try to talk me into believing that. Yeah, I believe in the punishment of the wicked, and that no one gains eternal life except through Jesus Christ (who alone has eternal life, I might add), but to believe that punishment lasts forever and ever and ever and ever? Nope. Total misunderstanding there. There is no word in English that totally defines the meaning of the original words in Hebrew and Greek. You don't believe me? Right? Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever. Check it out. Samuel's mother brought Samuel as a child to the temple where she said he would stay forever. Is Samuel still there? The fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorreah were said to be eternal. Are they still burning? These are but a few examples. I could post a ton of verses that say-- when you're dead, you're dead.

Do we actually believe the creator of this entire universe would create mere human beings who, if they made the wrong decision in their short little life on earth, would be punished in never ending torment forever and ever and evermore? That's what we believe in as Christians? A God like that? Not me, thank you. Never. That's a crueler belief system then any other I have ever heard of.

God is not the one who is in Hell punishing. Those who reject God are rejected by God and satan drags them to hell with glee. Demons enjoy tormenting humans.

My suggestion is for you to examine all the scriptures in the bible about hell and don't read what people say about them, come to your own conclusions.