Which gospel?

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TheDivineWatermark

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^ EDIT to add: again, 2Th1:4 says we/"the Church which is His body" experience "tribulations and persecutions" NOW/ONGOINGLY/THROUGHOUT its entire existence on the earth since the first century... we are NOT awaiting a specific future time period in order to experience it. We experience it NOW. Yet, THEY will experience it WITHIN/DURING the 7-yr trib... and it is not our place to rob THEM of THEIR "rewards" (by usurping what [and what place/role] God has for THEM--It's NOT ALL ABOUT *US* ;) )
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Matthew 10:32's context is speaking also what of it says in vv.22-23, "22 And you will be hated by all on account of My name; but the one having endured to the end, he will be saved [<--same as in Matt24:13/Mk13:13]. 23 And whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. For truly I say to you, you shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."



note: ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/come/etc" are in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign], FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [NOT "our Rapture"]

note: the use of the "propleptic 'you'" means (basically) "[all] those in the future, of the same category [and relative to the context]"... so that THIS context is speaking (when saying 'you') NOT of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]" [we are not awaiting a future set of yrs for persecution! :D;) ] ) but "the believing [remnant] OF ISRAEL" (those of Israel who WILL HAVE come to faith IN/WITHIN the future tribulation period [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])... it is THEY who will be "going over the cities of Israel" (for a specific purpose) and in anticipation of when "the Son of man comes" (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom; aka [they are] "the least [G1646, "used as equivalent to mikron" (found in Matt10:42!)] of these My brethren" Matt25:40,45 who will be being GRAVELY PERSECUTED "for My name's sake" DURING that specific future time period [we commonly call the 7-yr trib/70th-Wk])
.....and I laugh and laugh and laugh.
Cuz, you so funny! :p:p

Yanno? If yer gonna "speak in tongues?" online!

Aren't ye suppose to have an "interpreter?" ;)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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.....and I laugh and laugh and laugh.
Cuz, you so funny! :p:p

Yanno? If yer gonna "speak in tongues?" online!

Aren't ye suppose to have an "interpreter?" ;)
Well, if you think you are the "you" of that context (coz, perhaps thinking you'll be a hero of sorts?? :D ), then you better get on over to "going over the cities of Israel" so you can MAKE THIS HAPPEN! ALRIGHT!! YEAH!! lol

;) :rolleyes: :D


[oh yeah... I forgot... who cares about "context"!! :unsure: (whoop-dee-doo!) ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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If anyone wants to "LIKE" more of Noose's posts, this one's really "Winner"-worthy:

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4090349

[how much of that post aligns with the Bible, would you say? ^ ]

In some posts, it sounds as though he believes in a kind of "universalism" (that all are "saved" in the end), do I have that right??

I guess if you wanna align yourself with that "thought", it's okay...

[who needs Jesus' death on the Cross, right??]
 

DustyRhodes

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The only church in life we can trust is the gospel
of our Lord Jesus Christ. Be at one with God; He
will never let you down. Many people have many
opinions and sometimes that helps us and other
times not. Be at one with God, surrender to Him
and only Him. Churches are sometimes helpful
and sometimes they can mislead. But Christ on
the cross will never mislead.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Well, if you think you are the "you" of that context (coz, perhaps thinking you'll be a hero of sorts?? :D ), then you better get on over to "going over the cities of Israel" so you can MAKE THIS HAPPEN! ALRIGHT!! YEAH!! lol

;) :rolleyes: :D


[oh yeah... I forgot... who cares about "context"!! :unsure: (whoop-dee-doo!) ]
Nah! Not "the you!" But, certainly one of "the yous."

Concerning "context?" Think more simultaneously, at the same time. Or perhaps "continually ongoing."
 

Hevosmies

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note: ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/come/etc" are in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming to the earth [to judge and to reign], FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [NOT "our Rapture"]
How can we figure out which son of man cometh/coming/shall come/come are in the context of His Second Coming to the earth and NOT for our Rapture?

Because the RAPTURE is also spoken of as the Lord COMING:


1Thessalonians 4:15-16 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Does it ever talk about two comings in the Bible? Or lets be honest: did the readers of this passage to thessalonians ASSUME it was talking about the same PAROUSIA that everyone else was talking about in the Gospels? The Second coming? Safe to say thats what them folks would think! They didnt got no cross reference bibles in them days to go check out this and that.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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How can we figure out which son of man cometh/coming/shall come/come are in the context of His Second Coming to the earth and NOT for our Rapture?
Because the RAPTURE is also spoken of as the Lord COMING:
1Thessalonians 4:15-16 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
I've mentioned in past posts (you may recall) that BOTH "parousia" AND "erchomai" are used of BOTH [His coming, at the time of] "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" AND [at the time of] "His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. His "RETURN"]" (so, neither one of those Greek words, in and of themselves, are an indicator of "timing" [by themselves]).

So we move to "context" (who is being addressed?, etc... What is the LOCATION of the "parousia/or, erchomai"? Who does it pertain to/involve?, etc... Considerations of "chronology/SEQUENCE," etc)

So what I had BOLDED in that post (you referred to, of mine) is the phrase "Son of man [cometh]," which I am pointing out is His "[second coming] TO THE EARTH" [-EARTHLY/earthly-rule/reign]-designation (to judge and to reign).

Does that help clarify?


____________

Note the following (additionally, for consideration), which I've pointed out in this thread already:

[quoting an old post]

1 Timothy 6:15 - [one of only TWO times in all of the epistles where "King" is used (both FUTURE)]

Which in his times he shall shew [/openly manifest], who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;


Revelation 17:14 -

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:16 -

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
[note: ^ Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 being parallel time-wise with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23--see also verse 23, which v.23 is parallel time-wise with 1Cor15:25-27 which follows His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19], and which is followed by a time-period, after which, the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words will take place/be carried out (GWTj--the final sentence carried out)]

[end quoting]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Does it ever talk about two comings in the Bible? Or lets be honest: did the readers of this passage to thessalonians ASSUME it was talking about the same PAROUSIA that everyone else was talking about in the Gospels? The Second coming? Safe to say thats what them folks would think! They didnt got no cross reference bibles in them days to go check out this and that.
There is MUCH I could say about this ^ (but most ppl avoid reading long posts :D )... so as one small part of this, is to understand that the "amill-teaching's" definition of [the phrase] "the Day of the Lord" is a MADE UP one (not "biblically" derived). Instead of how they define it, it is:

--"a-period-of-time [not merely 24-hrs in length] of JUDGMENTs followed by a-period-of-time [also not of 24-hrs in length] of BLESSINGs" (ALL THAT)

--something that the Thessalonians "KNEW PERFECTLY" was to "ARRIVE" like a "thief IN THE NIGHT" like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" comes UPON a woman with child/in labor (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that "COMES UPON" a woman with child, is not the SOLE "birth PANG" there is! It is not "ONE and DONE!" No! MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]"...)

--the Thessalonians "understood" WHAT "the DOTL" is (the OT prophecies speak of it in various passages--the Thessalonians were not ignorant of "what" it is)

--in every place that the phrase "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS [throughout Scripture], these always refer to THE SAME [earthly-located] TIME PERIOD ("a period of JUDGMENTS followed by a period of BLESSINGS"); and...
they BOTH are used [together] IN THIS 2Th1 & 2 CONTEXT, as well! (thus providing the EVIDENCE that it is a "TIME PERIOD" that will "PRECEDE" His "return/presence" RATHER than as the "amill-teachings" define it as occurring [merely] AT [the moment OF] HIS "RETURN" [or merely as ARRIVING the moment of His "return"/2nd-coming])

--this is just the beginning of what all I WOULD say, regarding this subject... just the START of "getting the definition of 'theDOTL' right, according to its 'biblical' definition and description" because this is ONE aspect that ppl take a big miss-step when interpreting this passage (relating to "our Rapture" timing)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ EDIT to add: note: "the DOTL" [an earthly time period of MUCH duration] goes on to INCLUDE the ENTIRE 1000-yr MK age, but here ^ I am focusing on its "ARRIVAL" (at WHAT point in time it ARRIVES)
 

Hevosmies

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I've mentioned in past posts (you may recall) that BOTH "parousia" AND "erchomai" are used of BOTH [His coming, at the time of] "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" AND [at the time of] "His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. His "RETURN"]" (so, neither one of those Greek words, in and of themselves, are an indicator of "timing" [by themselves]).

So we move to "context" (who is being addressed?, etc... What is the LOCATION of the "parousia/or, erchomai"? Who does it pertain to/involve?, etc... Considerations of "chronology/SEQUENCE," etc)

So what I had BOLDED in that post (you referred to, of mine) is the phrase "Son of man [cometh]," which I am pointing out is His "[second coming] TO THE EARTH" [-EARTHLY/earthly-rule/reign]-designation (to judge and to reign).

Does that help clarify?


____________

Note the following (additionally, for consideration), which I've pointed out in this thread already:

[quoting an old post]

1 Timothy 6:15 - [one of only TWO times in all of the epistles where "King" is used (both FUTURE)]

Which in his times he shall shew [/openly manifest], who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;


Revelation 17:14 -

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:16 -

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
[note: ^ Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 being parallel time-wise with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23--see also verse 23, which v.23 is parallel time-wise with 1Cor15:25-27 which follows His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19], and which is followed by a time-period, after which, the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words will take place/be carried out (GWTj--the final sentence carried out)]

[end quoting]
But bro, if you wanna go to "the greek" how about this: in the greek PAROUSIA is only one. Its like: "THE PAROUSIA" only one coming. "THE BODILY PRESENCE" "THE PRESENCE"
 

TheDivineWatermark

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But bro, if you wanna go to "the greek" how about this: in the greek PAROUSIA is only one. Its like: "THE PAROUSIA" only one coming. "THE BODILY PRESENCE" "THE PRESENCE"
That's why I said (re: "context") to understand "WHERE".

Because when we ["the Church which is His body"] are "caught UP/AWAY"... "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" that is WHERE His "Presence/Parousia" will be; but NOT in the presence of all those remaining ON THE EARTH [those not yet having come to faith, by that point in time] who will thereafter face the trib yrs which will then unfold upon the earth. [this is when 2Th2:10-12 will then come into play, as well as other things which I won't cover in this post]

See what I'm saying?

It is only at His later "RETURN" (heading to the earth, FOR the MK age) that "every eye will see Him" (then His "Presence/Parousia" will be THERE)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ IOW, my viewpoint has no problem with the issue you raise, for once we are "caught UP/AWAY," it says, "and so shall we EVER BE WITH [G4862] THE LORD" (enjoying His "THE PRESENCE/PAROUSIA" [WHERE HE IS]);
That others are yet to experience (at/from that particular point-in-time) doesn't make it ANY LESS [HIS] "THE PRESENCE/PAROUSIA," as I see it! (His "RETURN" to[/toward-ing to] the earth, will STILL BE *HIS* "THE PRESENCE/PAROUSIA"! [at THAT location, now!])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ EDIT to add: I should add for clarification... I do not believe "our Rapture" is being referred to anywhere in the Olivet Discourse (unlike Member "Absolutely" does); but that the Olivet Discourse [except for several verses in Lk21"12-24 re: the 70ad events] is ALL about [/covering the Subject of] what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture (that is, IN/DURING the trib years, leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the earthly MK age).
 

Noose

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The "Sheep and goat judgment [/separation] [of the nations/Gentiles]" concerns those [of the nations] having come THROUGH the trib years [the "specific, limited, future 'time period' leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth" which I mentioned earlier], in their "MORTAL / STILL-LIVING" bodies... So, at that time, those who aided/helped "the least of these My brethren" [v.40; i.e. the believing remnant of Israel having come to faith IN/DURING the trib (FOLLOWING our Rapture), who will be the ones BRINGING the particular msg of "INVITATION" (TO the "feast/supper" / EARTHLY MK age)] those will be called "ye BLESSED" (by Jesus/the Lord); those who did NOT aid/help "the least of these My brethren" [same as I mentioned above] will be called "ye CURSED" (by Jesus/the Lord)

[these two bold/underlined phrases are reflective of what was said... elsewhere... do you recall WHERE? (hint: "21b until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age " [i.e. the OT prophecies (distinct from that which He had theretofore not yet disclosed)])]


"The Sheep and goat judgment [of the nations]" is not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" being judged as to whether or not they might have "earned salvation" and "entrance INTO HEAVEN"... that is to grossly misunderstand and misapply this passage (don't feel too bad, many people do this [meaning, misunderstand and misapply this passage and its context/purpose/meaning])
You are trying to deflect this argument. I was not talking about 'when' but 'how'.

Aren't church members going to be judged? if they are, how? is it not according to what they have done while on earth?

And you are badly mistaken anyway. No one is going to escape judgement. No one is going to be judged according to their persuasion/thought but according to what they have done (works).


Rev 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
 

Noose

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Consider that the above-mentioned verse is set in the context of His "RETURN" to the earth (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [promised to Israel]) … [NOT at "our Rapture," per context]; and


then consider the following two verses:

Isaiah 40:10 -

"Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and His arm establishes His rule. His reward is with Him, and His recompense [/'His work'] accompanies Him."

https://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/40-10.htm


Isaiah 62:11 -

"Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the ends of the earth, “Say to Daughter Zion: See, your Savior comes! Look, His reward is with Him, and His recompense [/'His work'] goes before [the face of] Him.”

https://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/62-11.htm


["For we [the Church which is His body'] are His workmanship [/poiema - G4161], having been created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."]
Of course Christ comes with His reward, to the wicked, condemnation but to those who persevere in doing good, salvation and this is what we call judgement.

Heb 9: 27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Of course Christ comes with His reward, to the wicked, condemnation but to those who persevere in doing good, salvation and this is what we call judgement.

Heb 9: 27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Ah, Noose... you have a short memory :D You and I discussed this passage not terribly long ago...

I'll put the SHORT version of my post, here, for the sake of the readers who may not have seen that post from back then, :)

[quoting my post about Heb9:28]

[Response to the idea that Heb9:28 refers to how Jesus only comes at His Second Coming to the earth [i.e. Rev19], not a separate time for our Rapture ('IN THE AIR')--But Heb9:28 refers to neither of these, as I see it, when we consider the following...]

From Hebrews 9:28 (where the "passive" form of G3708 ['appear'] is used)... out of the 684 occurrences of "G3708," TEN times that "[G3708] appear [PASSIVE]" is used regarding Jesus, ALL TEN of them refer events taking place AFTER His death/resurrection (and it was only to carefully chosen witnesses, not to every person everywhere).

Of those 10x, 5x it refers to the 40-day interval between His resurrection and His later "VISIBLE" ascension [specifically, "he was taken up"] in Acts 1 [note ...<snip> (this part, not shown here, covered His "[active] ascension" which took place ON His Resurrection Day/ON Firstfruit, fulfilling Lev23:10-12; John 20:17)...]);
so (without listing them) these 5x where "G3708 passive" is used of Him, all 5 of these are shown to be speaking of His "post-resurrection appearances" ON THE EARTH (over the course of some "40 days") in the presence of carefully chosen witnesses, in His resurrected Body (and ...<snip>...);

the main thing I want to point out here, is that, within those "40 days" [during which, the "5 mentions of G3708 passive" took place, re: Jesus], John 21:14 informs us "This is now the THIRD TIME that Jesus showed Himself to His disciples, after that He was risen from the dead."

So MULTIPLE times, over the course of a "40-day period" was this the case.

The OTHER 5 occurrences of this word (of "G3708 passive" when speaking of Jesus) ALL speak of what took place AFTER HIS "VISIBLE" ascension took place in Acts 1; so ALL 5 of *THESE* mentions took place [whilst in His position] "FROM HEAVEN" (AFTER His visible ascension, thus some time AFTER the 40-day period He spent with His disciples; ALL of *THESE* 5 mentions are speaking of when He appeared unto Paul from His position "FROM HEAVEN" after having visibly ascended before [/visibly in front of] His disciples in Acts 1);

So my main overall point being:

NOT ONE of those "10 occurrences of 'G3708 passive' [re: Jesus]" speaks of ANYTHING regarding the events BEFORE His death on the Cross, during the time of His earthly ministry (of 3.5 yrs or however long that was, exactly). NONE of those TEN "mentions" speak OF THAT. ALL TEN speak of what took place FOLLOWING His resurrection (and FIVE of them speak of events occurring FOLLOWING His visible ascension in Acts 1, AFTER those "40 days" and "FROM HEAVEN"); AND this "G3708 passive" (re: Jesus) was NOT LIMITED to "ONE TIME" ONLY, but MULTIPLE times, thus I believe the argument being put forth falls flat, as I see it.

Hebrews 9:28 [and note, this is the epistle to the Hebrews] -

"so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of [the] many,

for [ek - out from] a second time apart from sin will appear [G3708 passive],

[the FIRST time "He appeared apart from sin" was spoken of in those 10 mentions, ALL FOLLOWING His death/resurrection; at least one version puts it like, "a second time apart from a sin-offering shall appear [G3708 passive]" (note: the FIRST time "apart from a sin-offering" that He "appeared [G3708 passive (like Heb9:28 is speaking of)]" was ALL FOLLOWING His death/resurrection, and five of those 10 "mentions" was FOLLOWING His visible ascension in Acts 1, so "FROM HEAVEN" (these 5 mentions in particular are found in Paul's epistles, speaking of his/Paul's own experience)… but EITHER WORDING (either way it is worded), it makes no difference!]

to those awaiting Him for salvation."

[again, 5x was referring to His post-resurrection tangible/bodily appearances to His disciples/carefully-chosen-witnesses (and not speaking of merely a "ONE TIME" happening; John 21:14);
5x was referring to His post-ascension [His Acts1 latter (VISIBLE) ascension], the "FROM HEAVEN" one (so a separate one still, from the others [the "multiple others" already mentioned ^ ])]

That "argument" remains unconvincing to me, for these reasons.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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You are trying to deflect this argument. I was not talking about 'when' but 'how'.
Aren't church members going to be judged? if they are, how? is it not according to what they have done while on earth?
I covered that in my Post #209 (Page 12), where I wrote about the "BEMA of Christ" (2Cor5; see also 1Cor3:10-15); and in that post I had also written:

"[note: the ABOVE ^ passage is with regard to "REWARD" not "to obtain SALVATION"]

"There are something like 7 (?) or so "judgments" in Scripture..."

[i.e. the idea of a "general judgment" (a one-time event only) is not what Scripture reveals, but is what "amill-teachings," and the like, have insisted, due to their completely disregarding the issues of "chronology"... (you know, the UNIMPORTANT words ppl tend to gloss past!)]

...perhaps you missed seeing what I wrote there, as it was toward the bottom of that post. ;)

And you are badly mistaken anyway. No one is going to escape judgement. No one is going to be judged according to their persuasion/thought but according to what they have done (works).
Rev 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
I covered what I see that Rev22 verse as entailing.

I also never stated that "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as in, *WHEN IT HAS EXISTED*!)] (its various MEMBERS of the Body) come through the "Bema seat" of Christ all with the SAME "reward" or whatever. (Again, this "Bema" of Christ is ONLY for "the Church which is His body," is not the same as the other "judgment" occurrences [I just said there is something like 7 total distinct ones], and that the "Bema" of Christ is NOT for the purpose of determining/granting ETERNAL LIFE/SALVATION/JUSTIFICATION/etc... but for "reward" [or "loss" of same] (for the things done through/by means of the body).