Which statement is true?
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But the reason that the cat needed 'saving' was not because of its evil and wandering nature. It was simply that it needed a physical home. On the other hand with us the problem is that we do have an evil and wandering nature. . So it is not like for like.
I hardly think you offered it eternal life. You offered it a permanent home if it wished for one. But eternal life is something very different. It is life transforming and eternal. It is God's gift. If we could lose it, it would not be eternal.
Furthermore Jesus likened us to sheep because sheep DO wander. He does not leave a cat flap available unguarded. He guards His sheep. And He promises that whatever happens they will never perish. His reputation is at stake.
Any shepherd who said, 'I will protect my sheep, but if they wander off that is up to them,' would be a false shepherd who did not care for his sheep. Jesus said. 'I will seek them until I find them' (Luke 15.4). So your logic is astray
I hardly think you offered it eternal life. You offered it a permanent home if it wished for one. But eternal life is something very different. It is life transforming and eternal. It is God's gift. If we could lose it, it would not be eternal.
Furthermore Jesus likened us to sheep because sheep DO wander. He does not leave a cat flap available unguarded. He guards His sheep. And He promises that whatever happens they will never perish. His reputation is at stake.
Any shepherd who said, 'I will protect my sheep, but if they wander off that is up to them,' would be a false shepherd who did not care for his sheep. Jesus said. 'I will seek them until I find them' (Luke 15.4). So your logic is astray
E
While your right, in that the debate centers around either or conditions.
That should be your setting stone right there to show you which way you should place your faith in.
The term grace means favor. which has not been earned, It is given by Gods mercy on the underserving sinner who has placed their faith in him, and through their faith in Gods provision, asked him to show mercy on them, a sinner.
If this is the basis for salvation. then "conditions" should automatically be taken out of ANY equation which deems a person will suffer eternal death, or be given eternal life. Because if even one conditions is required. It is no longer of grace, no longer of mercy, and no longer freely given, it was paid for by that one condition.
ie. that person received eternal life NOT because of grace, NOT because of mercy, NOT because of the cross, but he EARNED the reward of salvation (he saved himself) by meeting that one condition.
That one condition makes it a works based Gospel.
Now look in here, the roman catholic church asks for MANY conditions which must be met. Some only ask for a few conditions (water baptism, confession of every sin) etc etc.
Of these gospels. Galations 1 was written to them. Run from the, far away from them, for they are no better than the pharisee in Jesus day, THEY THINK they are righteous, while they are whitewashed tombs, wolves in sheeps clothing, and leading themselves and many to eternal darkness.
That should be your setting stone right there to show you which way you should place your faith in.
The term grace means favor. which has not been earned, It is given by Gods mercy on the underserving sinner who has placed their faith in him, and through their faith in Gods provision, asked him to show mercy on them, a sinner.
If this is the basis for salvation. then "conditions" should automatically be taken out of ANY equation which deems a person will suffer eternal death, or be given eternal life. Because if even one conditions is required. It is no longer of grace, no longer of mercy, and no longer freely given, it was paid for by that one condition.
ie. that person received eternal life NOT because of grace, NOT because of mercy, NOT because of the cross, but he EARNED the reward of salvation (he saved himself) by meeting that one condition.
That one condition makes it a works based Gospel.
Now look in here, the roman catholic church asks for MANY conditions which must be met. Some only ask for a few conditions (water baptism, confession of every sin) etc etc.
Of these gospels. Galations 1 was written to them. Run from the, far away from them, for they are no better than the pharisee in Jesus day, THEY THINK they are righteous, while they are whitewashed tombs, wolves in sheeps clothing, and leading themselves and many to eternal darkness.
E
Agree with what, We do agree with it. near to being cursed, is not being cursed.
If one can fall away, there is no more repentnance, done, their eternal fate is sealed forever. so why go back to law? why go to legalism and say you can lose your salvation? the message is the same today for all legalists, as it was to jews going back to law.
If one can fall away, there is no more repentnance, done, their eternal fate is sealed forever. so why go back to law? why go to legalism and say you can lose your salvation? the message is the same today for all legalists, as it was to jews going back to law.
E
It's funny how verses supporting OSAS are all taken at face value, while the opposite verses are all taken as hypothetical hyperbole. Sounds like having your cake and eating it too.
I still stand by the op list. Because I choose to take all of Gods word at face value, and don't care to discount a single word of it like so many of you do.
But again, in the end, unless a believer is considering renouncing his faith, it's a moot subject.
On to the next... have we rehashed the gifts lately? lol!
I still stand by the op list. Because I choose to take all of Gods word at face value, and don't care to discount a single word of it like so many of you do.
But again, in the end, unless a believer is considering renouncing his faith, it's a moot subject.
On to the next... have we rehashed the gifts lately?
lol!
So ETERNAL LIFE does not mean ETERNAL life.
Thanks,
what you just said is the same as a person who says a blue car is not a blue car. and anyone who states it is a blue car is just making excuses, and no matter how many times you are told it is blue, you will never see a blue car.
E
yep, and as long as you took care of that cat, and fed it, caused it to grow, and nurtured it, it would never desire to leave.
So tell me. Since God is a better parent to his children than you or I can even think of being to a kitten, why would anyone want to leave?
You keep saying people can leave, but not once have I heard you or anyone else tell us WHY a person who want to leave a loving father who takes care of their every need, never lets them down, and loves and nurtures them.
(oh and by the way, The father not only does this, but
1. saved him from the most horrific death one can fathom (death without God and hope)
2. Saved him from the hopelessness which comes from being self reliant (have to meet my own needs because no one else will)
3. Saved him from a life of sin and dispare
4. Adopted him into a family, where your brothers and sisters do not treat you like the world does. but there is a love, and a light which shines in the darkness.
Again, WHY WOULD THIS PERSON LEAVE?
I know why..
they never experienced it first hand (they were never saved)
E
Yes, but even james admitted some he spoke to were not saved,
It was written to congregations of people. No one assumed everyone in the congregation was saved, James told people to test their faith.. are they hearers only, Are they believers only (dead faith) or is their faith real,
Every church I have ever went to usually has a gospel message at some point, because no pastor assumes everyone in their service is saved, why would we want the author of Hebrews or james to think everyone who will read, or be read their letters are saved?
It was written to congregations of people. No one assumed everyone in the congregation was saved, James told people to test their faith.. are they hearers only, Are they believers only (dead faith) or is their faith real,
Every church I have ever went to usually has a gospel message at some point, because no pastor assumes everyone in their service is saved, why would we want the author of Hebrews or james to think everyone who will read, or be read their letters are saved?
E
how can one leave Christ. (who is an omniscient God) who said
1. I will never leave you (no matter where you go)
2. No one can pluck you out of my hands (not even you)
3. If you get lost, I will leave my flock to come find you
4. If you are my true sheep (if your really saved) you will hear my voice and follow me
sorry, the excuse that I can leave God to continue to believe in a legalistic works based self righteous (I saved myself) gospel is not going to fly.
why does no one ever consider that.
1. I will never leave you (no matter where you go)
2. No one can pluck you out of my hands (not even you)
3. If you get lost, I will leave my flock to come find you
4. If you are my true sheep (if your really saved) you will hear my voice and follow me
sorry, the excuse that I can leave God to continue to believe in a legalistic works based self righteous (I saved myself) gospel is not going to fly.
why does no one ever consider that.
Eternally-Gratefull:
What does it mean where it says God..not man, but God turns them over to a REPROBATE MIND?
I see the thought of rejection.
Why does Paul speak of runnning a race?
Why did Jesus tell parables about some seed calling them saved and falling little by little away from That Grace to an unsaved state.
The bible is full of warnings fot unbelievers as well as believers to watch and pray .
Why would Jesus need to go after one of a hundred sheep who wandered away if it wasn't the sheeps choice to leave the flock and it no where says He brings them all back other than for a judjement of death because they decided they didn't like His green pastures.
There is no teaching in Gods word of OSAS.
And why would anyone who tasted of the HS (Jesus) turn away, ...? Ask Judas, ask the children of Isrial afrer the exodus....Ask common sense. This OT is proof of warnings over and over...
What does it mean where it says God..not man, but God turns them over to a REPROBATE MIND?
I see the thought of rejection.
Why does Paul speak of runnning a race?
Why did Jesus tell parables about some seed calling them saved and falling little by little away from That Grace to an unsaved state.
The bible is full of warnings fot unbelievers as well as believers to watch and pray .
Why would Jesus need to go after one of a hundred sheep who wandered away if it wasn't the sheeps choice to leave the flock and it no where says He brings them all back other than for a judjement of death because they decided they didn't like His green pastures.
There is no teaching in Gods word of OSAS.
And why would anyone who tasted of the HS (Jesus) turn away, ...? Ask Judas, ask the children of Isrial afrer the exodus....Ask common sense. This OT is proof of warnings over and over...
No, it was written to Hebrews some of whom were hesitating whether to become Christians or not.
It is inconceivable that James was writing just to Jewish believers. There were huge controversies and differences between Jewish and Gentile Christians. Had he been writing solely to Jews he must have said something about their relationship and behaviour towards Gentile Christians. It is not conceivable that he would have failed to do so in a letter concentrating so much on behaviour. It was a sore topic at the time. The total lack of even a hint of such controversy makes clear that he was writing to the whole church and wanting to avoid highlighting the differences..
It is inconceivable that James was writing just to Jewish believers. There were huge controversies and differences between Jewish and Gentile Christians. Had he been writing solely to Jews he must have said something about their relationship and behaviour towards Gentile Christians. It is not conceivable that he would have failed to do so in a letter concentrating so much on behaviour. It was a sore topic at the time. The total lack of even a hint of such controversy makes clear that he was writing to the whole church and wanting to avoid highlighting the differences..
Rejection because they have refused to respond and believe in Jesus Christ.
Because we are. But it a race that all are expected to win.
There was only ONE seed that He describes as landing on good soil. All the rest fell on soil that was not good. His whole point was that wee should examine our hearts to see if we are good soil, that is, true Christians.
no doubt you will point them out? But certainly all men are under obligation to pray.
He will seek them UNTIL HE FINDS THEM? (luke 15.4). seems conclusive to me.
Nonsense the New Testament is full of it. e.g John 6.37-44; 10.27-29; Rom 8.29-30; 1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6; 2 Tim 1.12; Rev 13.8; to name but a few.
Because they didn't like the taste? Thus they NEVER believed.
He was destined for perdition from the very beginning. So how could he fall away? He found perdition.
but they had never been saved. they had never truly believed.
well my common sense tells me that Jesus will never fail in his task of Saviour.
because those addressed in the OT were mainly non-believers.
Because we are. But it a race that all are expected to win.
There was only ONE seed that He describes as landing on good soil. All the rest fell on soil that was not good. His whole point was that wee should examine our hearts to see if we are good soil, that is, true Christians.
no doubt you will point them out? But certainly all men are under obligation to pray.
He will seek them UNTIL HE FINDS THEM? (luke 15.4). seems conclusive to me.
Nonsense the New Testament is full of it. e.g John 6.37-44; 10.27-29; Rom 8.29-30; 1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6; 2 Tim 1.12; Rev 13.8; to name but a few.
Because they didn't like the taste? Thus they NEVER believed.
He was destined for perdition from the very beginning. So how could he fall away? He found perdition.
but they had never been saved. they had never truly believed.
well my common sense tells me that Jesus will never fail in his task of Saviour.
because those addressed in the OT were mainly non-believers.
Its unscripturalness? You are playing with words. We do not speak of eternal security as something that can be gained and lost. By eternal security we mean unlosable. (It is not a scriptural phrase. WE determine what we mean by it). You are talking about something very different from us. Thus your trite statement is not talking about the same thing as we are.
when we become Christians eternal life is found IN US. It is God's gift TO US. Thus WE have eternal life, and what is more we HAVE eternal life (John 5.24; 1 John 5.13). Our life is now eternal. Thus we KNOW that we will live for ever with Him.
Of course we must be in Christ. But the fact is that the Scripture nowhere says that, once we are in Christ, we can cease to be in Christ. It is no longer our choice. We are safely IN HIM. That is why Paul said, 'because you have been raised with Him -- you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God' (Col 3.1-3). What could be safer than that?
As the hymn writer put it, 'once in Christ, in Christ for ever, naught from Him my soul can sever'.
Some of you seem to think that you are so powerful that you can fight against God. Having died with Christ you think that you can resurrect yourself outside of Christ. And that is impossible.
when we become Christians eternal life is found IN US. It is God's gift TO US. Thus WE have eternal life, and what is more we HAVE eternal life (John 5.24; 1 John 5.13). Our life is now eternal. Thus we KNOW that we will live for ever with Him.
Of course we must be in Christ. But the fact is that the Scripture nowhere says that, once we are in Christ, we can cease to be in Christ. It is no longer our choice. We are safely IN HIM. That is why Paul said, 'because you have been raised with Him -- you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God' (Col 3.1-3). What could be safer than that?
As the hymn writer put it, 'once in Christ, in Christ for ever, naught from Him my soul can sever'.
Some of you seem to think that you are so powerful that you can fight against God. Having died with Christ you think that you can resurrect yourself outside of Christ. And that is impossible.
E
So God is turning his own children over to a reprobate mind? Would you do that to your kids?
he also spoke of fighting battles. Paul used military and sports to show what the life of a Child of God looks like.
He did not, nor did he ever say, he ran to try to save himself. keep his salvation, or pay for his salvation. He would be teaching a gospel of works. which is no different that what the jews taught, that he fought so hard.
He never said that, He said their faith was not strong enough, and the problems of the world took them away.
No one will be saved because they just believe, it takes FAITH to save someone.
He went after them, They heard his voice, and came back.
Thats osas.
Thats the lie of satan, He does not want you to be saved, so he has convinced you you can earn your salvation by what ever condition you have bought into.
Satan comes as an angel of light the word of God says, your following the wrong light my friend Your faith is in self. Not God. You may believe in God and jesus, but you have no faith in them at all.
Judas and the people of the exodus never experienced the HS in a true sense, they may have tasted the experience of other people around them being blessed, But they never experienced God in salvation.
They were never saved, if you think this, You think a person can be saved who lived in sin, and never trusted God (in which case both of the examples you gave occured)
so in one breath you claim one can not be saved and live in sin,
yet your examples of people who fell away, were saved WHILE THEY LIVED IN SIN.
I hope you see what you have done, and pray about it, so maybe God can speak to you concerning his FREE GIFT, His MERCY, his TRUE LOVE.
P
John chapter 15 verses 1 thru 6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.