Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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:rolleyes: you can claim you have "Already addressed these matters" all the livelong day. However, you make conflicting statements and when the discrepancy is pointed out to you, rather than seriously consider the issue, you sweep it under the carpet and claim "Already addressed these matters" and accuse others "you don’t listen".

Your claim in Post 910 that "its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly or in a ungodly state" is correct.

In post 2514, your response of "That's false" when I told you "Once a person is justified, he/she is no longer "ungodly" " is incorrect.

And I understand you have to claim that because your erroneous dogma states that a person is justified before he/she comes to faith in Christ.
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Again, I have addressed them, and you dont listen.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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renewed

that's regeneration before you hear the Gospel.
Scripturally unsound dogma.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth

No believe the gospel, no salvation ...


Romans 10:

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Hear ... then believe.


Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Hear ... then believe ... then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise = regeneration.

You add to the truth of Scripture to your own detriment.
All of those scriptures are about the regenerate, only the regenerate have spiritual hearing.


The word "sealed" is translated from the Greek word sphragízō which means to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership.

According to Scripture, the very moment a person is born again, he/she is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Every single born again believer is a child of God and belongs to Him (i.e. is owned by God).

Because the sealing signifies ownership, then that means under your dogma, you've got folks regenerated who are not owned by God. So God does not own those who according to you are regenerated? They are born again (regenerated) ... children of the Most High God ... and yet they are not owned by Him because (according to you) regeneration occurs before they hear, yet the sealing takes place at some later point. :rolleyes:
Sealing and regeneration are different, yet only the regenerate will be sealed


brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Peter stated in Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 15:7 and Ephesians 1:13 are in alignment with each other ... first hear then believe the gospel
they hear first [by regeneration] then believe
The words " [by regeneration] " do not appear in the text – they are added by you.
Doesnt have to appear in the text, spiritual hearing is the fruit of regeneration. Its just a given, Jesus told us who it is that hears spiritually His voice of Truth Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.




World here in these scriptures denote the elect
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:


5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 1 John 2:2

You have again failed in your dismal attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error!

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
World in Salvation passages, Jn 3:16-17; Jn 1:29; 1 Jn 2:2 applies exclusively to the saved, the Justified, the elect.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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renewed

Yes I see the word now. It looks back to Vs 8
:rolleyes: if that was the case, vs 9 would read "Much more then, being then justified by His blood". But that is not how the verse reads.
Rom 5:8 declares

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Now that Christ died for us Vs 9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Christ dying #1 Justified us by His Blood and #2 ensured that those He died for are saved from wrath.

Your problem is unbelief, in that you dont believe Christs death alone Justified them He died for.

False God had already imputed Righteousness to Abraham
That is not what is stated in Scripture:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

In order for your understanding to be correct, you have to rearrange the words to fit your stated belief. Just read Scripture as written by the Author of Scripture. If God had wanted the verse to read "And God counted Abraham righteous and Abraham believed", God would have written the verse in that order.

Quit manipulating Scripture in your vain attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma.
I know what it says, Im telling you what it means, Righteousness was imputed to Abraham before he believed, thats why and what he believed. Abraham like everyone else Christ died for have His Righteousness imputed to them.

Christs death alone reconciled all parties involved.
Your statement is incorrect because, if true, that would mean there was never any enmity. However, God's Word is clear ... we were enemies and we remain enemies until we are justified by faith (Rom 5:1). At that point, we are reconciled to God and we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while enemies. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now since you like the greek so much, when we were enemies is in the present tense, meaning while they were being enemies, they were or we were reconciled to God is past tense. So they were reconciled to God, prior to their conversion, and while they were in a state of being enemies. How so ? By the Death of Christ. Now you dont believe in the death of Christ !

In Col 1:20-22
You have the same problem in Col 1:21 as you have with Rom 5:9:

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Oh No, Col 1:20-22 clarifies that even their being reconciled from a state of them being enemies in their mind, that was effected through the death of Christ as well

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death,
to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

You dont believe in the death of Christ !
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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nope ... it's not before ... nor is it after ... it's simultaneous.

Simultaneous = occurring at the same time – mirriam-webster.com
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Those Christ died for are Justified before God by His Blood before they believe. When Christ was raised from the dead, it was a testification that everyone for whom sins He died has been Justified, even if they had yet to be born. If a person He died for in 33 ad wasn't born until 1957, even though that person is born an ungodly sinner by nature as all are, yet because Christ died for that individual back in 33 ad, and put their sins away, they are born Justified before God, and since they haven't been born again yet, they are Justified while ungodly. How you may ask ? By the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9. Now they may not come to faith until 1982 after being born again, when they come to faith, they believe on Him that Justifies the ungodly. Now Justification by Faith before their conscience comes simultaneous with their believing, but that's only the revelation of what took place in the past at the Cross before Gods Law and Justice, which the resurrection of Christ testified to !

Now I have explained this to you before !
 

brightfame52

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Justification and Remission of sins are the same thing!

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Now its plain here that Paul contributes Justification freely by God's Grace, through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, which is through His Blood according to Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now the Redemption which is through His Blood provides the forgiveness of their sins, according to the riches of God's Grace, whereas in Rom 3:24 instead of saying forgiveness of sins, Paul says " being Justified"

This forgiveness of sins comes before Faith, in fact, we must receive a knowledge of it, which means the fact of it is a reality with God, before one receives the Knowledge of it Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

This also tells us that remission of sins equals Salvation and Justification, in other words by receiving a knowledge of our remission of sins, we are receiving a knowledge of our Salvation and or Justification! 15
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I cannot wait for the day when Calvinists find out how wrong they were.
That's really what you are earnestly waiting for?

Why?

If they are right, you will look foolish that being right was so vitally important to you.

And if you are right, your great big reward you "you cannot wait" for is a big "I told ya so!".
 

VARob

Active member
Dec 21, 2020
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That's really what you are earnestly waiting for?

Why?

If they are right, you will look foolish that being right was so vitally important to you.

And if you are right, your great big reward you "you cannot wait" for is a big "I told ya so!".
What I earnestly want is that Calvinists would realize how wrong they are now.

If they did, they would understand how important witnessing is.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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What I earnestly want is that Calvinists would realize how wrong they are now.

If they did, they would understand how important witnessing is.
Maybe. but that is not what you said.
 
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In Gen 3:14-15 God is speaking to the serpent, the devil, satan, and it was revealed that the serpent has a seed, just as sure as the woman had a seed !
The word "seed" appears twice in Gen 3:15.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed [Hebrew zera; singular] and her seed [Hebrew zera; singular]; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


In both cases, the word "seed" is singular in number.

The "seed" of the woman is the Lord Jesus Christ.
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His death was worthless
you can stick with your "worthless" claim ...

I'll stick with Scripture:

1 Peter 1:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

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The world spoken of in 2 Cor 5:19 is a world without sin/trespasses charged to it, making it a Justified world.
intentionally obtuse.

Thayer's includes 2 Corinthians 5:19 under definition #5:

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... 2 Corinthians 5:19
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at the very least you should read Acts 5:31 together with Acts 5:32 brightfame52
Christ in Acts 5:31 is said to be exalted to give repentance to Israel, which is a term denoting a elect people
In Acts 5:35, Gamaliel, who was a well respected pharisee, spoke to the council which had imprisoned Peter and the apostles:

Acts 5:35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

You want me to believe that the high priest and the council, the ones Peter addressed in Acts 5:30 as whom ye slew and hanged on a tree ... these guys are your so-called "elect"??? :rolleyes:


Acts 5:31 speaks of the nation of Israel ... the nation which God promised to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob. Here is the Word which God spoke to Jacob:

Genesis 35:

10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins


In John 11, we read about the high priest prophesying concerning the Lord Jesus Christ:

John 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation


Again, when you read Acts 5:31, instead of ripping the verse out of the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it, you need to include (at the very least) the next verse:

Acts 5:

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The "those that do not obey Him" of Acts 5:32 are the same as those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness of Romans 1:18.

As I have pointed out to you numerous times ...

Scripture is also clear that God reveals Himself and some reject God ... not because they do not have faith, but because they suppress/restrain the truth in unrighteousness:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


Rom 1:18-20 tells us that God makes plain His eternal power and Godhead ... however, this truth is suppressed. The words "who hold" in vs 18 are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress; hold back; restrain. When the Word of God is spoken, the hearer restrains the truth from reaching his/her heart.

It is clear from vs 19 that God reveals His eternal power and Godhead and it is clear from vs 18 that it is the person who rejects God.




Christ died for the world of the saved.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Thayer's clearly states that the word kosmos as used in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 2 Cor 5:19, 1 John 2:2 refers to definition #5.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2




brightfame52 said:
If He died for a person, that person is Justified from all sin, saved from its penalty
God tells us when a person is justified:

Acts 13:39 And by him [the Lord Jesus Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

From Calvin's Commentaries (bold/underline mine):

Every one that believeth, Paul showeth how men obtain the righteousness of Christ; to wit, when they receive it by faith; and that which faith doth obtain is not obtained by any merits of works. Wherefore, Paul's opinion is plain, that we are justified by faith alone, which, notwithstanding the Papists oppugn [oppose] and strive against no less obstinately than bitterly, nevertheless, it is requisite that we know what the word believe doth import, which is made unsavory to the Papists through ignorance.

Are you a papist???




brightfame52 said:
Heb 9:12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
click
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Mar 23, 2016
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brightfame52, you have again botched your Post 2767:

brightfame52 said:
Christ died for the whole world of the saved.
:rolleyes: ... more of your manipulation of Scripture in your feeble attempt to prop up your erroneous dogma.
You did not make both those statements.

You really need to learn to submit your posts properly so that you do not include statements made by others as if you had made the statement.
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:rolleyes ... I know you need to have Gen 1:1 be beyond the capability of natural man to understand ... but you needing it to be so does not mean it is so.

Natural man can understand what is written in Gen 1:1 and when natural man rejects the truth written in Gen 1:1, he/she will reap the consequence of his her having suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

As I have told you in the past, if you teach folks you witness to that they will never understand Scripture, then you are teaching exactly what the adversary wants taught and you will see Bibles "setting around collecting dust" because (according to you) the Word of God is just "words written on paper".
the natural man is dead to God, has no spiritual discernment 1 Cor 2:13-14
Your failure to comprehend the point is because you equate all of Scripture to be the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom of 1 Cor 2:7 (which is what 1 Cor 2:13-14 speaks of).

Not all of Scripture is the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:7).

Some of Scripture recites history and no "spiritual discernment" is required in order to comprehend what is written.

That you reject this truth does not change the fact that it is true.

You preach the words of the adversary when you attempt to make Scripture so beyond all comprehension ... which is why you will see Bibles "setting around collecting dust" because (according to you) the Word of God is just "words written on paper".

Your attempts fail because God's Word is more powerful than your erroneous dogma.
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The point is that if a person is already a son of God, there is no need for Jesus to give them power to become a son of God.

That is the point you continue to ignore ... either because you are incapable of comprehending the point ... or you are purposely obfuscating.

Please address the point.
the natural man is dead to God, no spiritual life, no spiritual discernment
Your inability to refute the central point is excruciatingly obvious.

If you cannot address the point, just move on.

You claim:

Yes, a person is born again prior to believing the Gospel of Christ, scripture teaches that,

John 1:12-13

If a person is born again, he/she is already a son of God.

John 1:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name


The Lord Jesus Christ clearly states that He gave power [the right, the privilege] to become the sons of God (vs 12) to those who did not reject Him (vs 11).

If they are already "born of God", they already are the sons of God. There would be no need for the Lord Jesus Christ to give them what they already have and are.
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You have again botched your reply in Post 2770:

brightfame52 said:
You dont believe plain scripture.
:rolleyes: that I do not hold to your erroneous dogma you've been "studying for decades" does not mean I "don't believe plain scripture".

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

enemies translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,

reconciled translated from Greek katallássōdecisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

You only submitted the first sentence. The rest of what you submitted is my reply to your statement.

You really need to learn to submit your posts properly so that you do not include statements made by others as if you had made the statement.
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you criticize and judge
nope ... I address the point of your claim and submit a rebuttal to your claim.

I have never stated that you are not a believer as you did when you claimed in your Post 2329 that it was your "privilege to tell ya that they really don’t believe it at all !".

That you do not understand the difference between examination/scrutinization of your dogma and a personal attack does equal me personally "criticiz[ing] and judg[ing]" you. It means you do not comprehend that rebuttal to your claim ≠ personal attack.




brightfame52 said:
There is no need for me to "plan on keeping every jot and title" of your erroneous dogma because I actually believe what is written in Scripture
you obligated to keep the whole law
your erroneous dogma does not affect me in the least.


Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
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