Who Justifieth the Ungodly

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
2,617
663
113
Australia
I tried to read all the posts before this but i admit that i didn't read them all..

Jesus came and lived among us.
He live a perfect life without sin.
His righteousness robe was obtained.
He died without sin. Paid the penalty of death but was faultless.
He made provision to forgive every sin, so was able to pay for every sinners debt.

Forgiveness was not made at the cross, provision to forgive was made at the cross. There is a difference.

By faith we can be imputed with Christ's righteousness
and by faith we are justified.

But many forget about the last part that is in the bible in many places.
Judgement.
We are judged by works.
Christ will judge the world.
We are given justification by faith but when Christ judges us He looks at the sincerity of the faith. Was our faith true, were we really sorry? Faith without works is dead, by their fruits you will know them.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I am not saying works save us. Christ's righteousness covers us.
The faith will be judged.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
It does not matter what I (or you) "think".

It matters what God states and in Genesis 3:14, God tells you to whom He was speaking. I even bolded the words in the verse so you would know.

You even stated in your Post 2629:




Again, I reiterate:


.
In Gen 3:14-15 God is speaking to the serpent, the devil, satan, and it was revealed that the serpent has a seed, just as sure as the woman had a seed !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
nope ... that's all on you. You saying I said what you claim does not equal me having said it. That is nothing but you projecting on to me the thoughts the adversary whispered in your ear and you not having the spiritual fortitude to cast down vain reasoning.

A sampling of the times you repeated your false claim:

here
here
here
here
here
here
here
here
here
here
here



1 Peter 1:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

What you claim to be "worthless" is of inestimable value to me. You really just need to stop with your malicious accusation.

You do know who is the accuser of the brethren, yes?
.
You proclaim that sinners Christ died for, are still going to die in their unbelief and sins. That means His death was worthless in saving them from their unbelief and sins.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
Thayer's, references that distinction in one verse only (Romans 11:12).

As far as 2 Cor 5:19, Thayer's defines kosmos as "the inhabitants of the world ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race"

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their respasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
.
World means different things in scripture, for the most part in Salvation context it means Gentiles apart from jews.

The world spoken of in 2 Cor 5:19 is a world without sin/trespasses charged to it, making it a Justified world.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

Acts 5:31
:rolleyes: at the very least you should read Acts 5:31 together with Acts 5:32, brightfame52:

Acts 5:

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Christ in Acts 5:31 is said to be exalted to give repentance to Israel, which is a term denoting a elect people, and since He gives them repentance, that supposes or means He gives them new life, since repentance is a spiritual blessing from new birth, also He gives them forgiveness of sins, which means they are Justified. Forgiveness of sins comes with redemption Col 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

And Justification comes with redemption Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed
brightfame52 said:
Christ died for the whole world of the saved.
:rolleyes: ... more of your manipulation of Scripture in your feeble attempt to prop up your erroneous dogma.
Again, Christ died for the world of the saved. If He died for a person, that person is Justified from all sin, saved from its penalty Heb 9:12


Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

That word redemption means:

lytrōsis :

  1. a ransoming, redemption
  2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin
So those whom He died have no sin penalty against them, saved from the penalty of sin, even though they dont know it immediately.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
:rolleyes ... I know you need to have Gen 1:1 be beyond the capability of natural man to understand ... but you needing it to be so does not mean it is so.

Natural man can understand what is written in Gen 1:1 and when natural man rejects the truth written in Gen 1:1, he/she will reap the consequence of his her having suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

As I have told you in the past, if you teach folks you witness to that they will never understand Scripture, then you are teaching exactly what the adversary wants taught and you will see Bibles "setting around collecting dust" because (according to you) the Word of God is just "words written on paper".
.
Again the natural man is dead to God, has no spiritual discernment 1 Cor 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
brightfame52 ... you are either purposely obfuscating or you are incapable of comprehending the point. What you are not doing is addressing the issue raised:

John 1:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


verse 12 explains what occurs when a person receives [Greek lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available] the Lord Jesus Christ as opposed to those who reject Him as those shown in vs 11.

Those who lay hold by actively accepting the Lord Jesus Christ are granted the privilege, honor, right to become sons of God.

even to them that believe on his name ... those who receive Him (lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting) are the ones who believe on His name.

verse 13 explains that those who receive Him ... those who believe on His name are begotten of God ... not in some distant time in the past to which you continuously infer ... but at the time they received the Lord Jesus Christ and believed on his name (vs 12).


The point is that if a person is already a son of God, there is no need for Jesus to give them power to become a son of God.

That is the point you continue to ignore ... either because you are incapable of comprehending the point ... or you are purposely obfuscating.

Please address the point.
.
Again, the natural man is dead to God, no spiritual life, no spiritual discernment 1 Cor 2:14 the things of Christ are Spiritual, not natural 1 Cor 15:46

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

You dont believe plain scripture.
:rolleyes: that I do not hold to your erroneous dogma you've been "studying for decades" does not mean I "don't believe plain scripture".

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

enemies translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,

reconciled translated from Greek katallássōdecisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.
You dont believe plain scripture, you cant receive the Truth. Again those Christ died for were reconciled to God by His death while they were being enemies. Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

... apparently you do not understand the difference between myself (and others) examining/scrutinizing your dogma and a personal attack ... which is what you did when you claimed it was your "privilege to tell ya that they really don’t believe it at all !" ... or your claim that I was "lying on you" and you finally acknowledged I was not "lying on you" because I had accurately represented your statements.

In examining your dogma, I never said you are not a believer or that you are not born again.

You not understanding the difference between scrutiny/examination of your dogma and a personal attack does not give you license to assert your outlandish accusations/personal attacks.
Again, you criticize and judge while at the same time condemning someone for doing it.

There is no need for me to "plan on keeping every jot and title" of your erroneous dogma because I actually believe what is written in Scripture:

Yes it is, you condition Justification before God on your human faith ! Since you do that, you obligated to keep the whole law, Christ profits you nothing.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
What is written in Romans 4:25 does not change the fact that the verbs are in the present tense in Romans 4:5:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth [present tense] on him that justifieth [present tense] the ungodly, his faith is counted [present tense] for righteousness.

The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, God justifies the one who believes ... at that very moment the believer is no longer ungodly.

Please address the issue concerning the verb tense in Romans 4:5. They are all present tense, notwithstanding what is written in Romans 4:25.
.
You still deny the witness of the resurrection of Christ. Christ rose from the dead because He and them He represented when He died for their sins, were cleared, Justified before the law and Justice of God almighty !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

all for whom He died are Justified from all sin, and counted righteous
:rolleyes: intentionally obtuse ...

Address the issue, brightfame52:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not [present tense], but believeth [present tense] on him that justifieth [present tense] the ungodly, his faith is counted [present tense] for righteousness.

The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, God justifies the one who believes ... at that very moment the believer is no longer ungodly.

If you can't address the issue, just say you can't address it.
Its been addressed many times, you reject it. You deny Rom 4:5 for it teaches that God justifies the ungodly.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

Romans 4:5 does not support your claim. Again, all the verbs in Romans 4:5 are in the present tense:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not [present tense], but believeth [present tense] on him that justifieth [present tense] the ungodly, his faith is counted [present tense] for righteousness.

The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, God justifies the one who believes ... at that very moment the believer is no longer ungodly.
God Justifies the ungodly. They are ungodly when He Justifies them. They were also reconciled to God while being enemies, same thing Rom 5:10
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
2,617
663
113
Australia
So those whom He died have no sin penalty against them, saved from the penalty of sin, even though they dont know it immediately.
When Jesus died, He died for ALL sinners, everyone was or is able to be saved.
Forgiveness is personal and we must accept the gift before it is given.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, God justifies the one who believes ... at that very moment the believer is no longer ungodly.
Your understanding is faulty because the verse says " Believeth on Him that Justifeth the ungodly" and the ungodly has the definite article, so its specifying that they are in a ungodly state, being justified. Now that being the case, they werent regenerate or believers when Justified.

The same ungodly Christ died for Rom 5:6

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

So those ungodly ones Christ died for, are Justified solely due to the fact He died for them, and you dont believe that.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

we know that Christs resurrection is an evidence that those He died for have been Justified
:rolleyes: brightfame52, do you really believe that if not for mankind believing, the Lord Jesus Christ would have remained in the grave? ... that the grave could hold him???

Acts 2:24 Whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

the Lord Jesus Christ would have risen from the grave if no one believed.
So once again, you deny the testification of Christs resurrection, that sinners He died in the place and stead of, for their sins, when He arose, both He and they were Justified. So many ungodly persons were Justified simply because Christ died for them.

1 Cor 15:17

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

See that ? Christ being raised means those He died for are not in their sins. You however teach that Christ died for people, and rose again for them, and yet they still die in their sins.

You may as well flat out deny Christs resurrection altogether.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

You want to look at Gill? Let's look at and highlight what you choose to ignore:

but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly: or that ungodly one: particular reference is had to Abraham, who in his state of unregeneracy was an ungodly person; as all God's elect are in a state of nature, and are such when God justifies them, being without a righteousness of their own; wherefore he imputes the righteousness of another, even that of his own Son, unto them: and though he justifies the ungodly, he does not justify their ungodliness, but them from it; nor will he, nor does he leave them to live and die in it; now to him that worketh not, that is perfect righteousness; or has no opportunity of working at all; or what he does, he does not do, that he might be justified by it; but exercises faith on God as justifying persons, who, like himself, are sinners, ungodly and destitute of a righteousness
Nothing has been ignored by me, its you who denies that God justifies sinners while they are ungodly and unregenerate.

And those who have been Justified before God by the death of Christ alone, in due time will be regenerate, and given the Gift of Faith to believe in Christ who has already Justified them. So a regenerate person can and does exercise Faith, yet the Faith wasn't their own natural faith, but Faith given them by the Spirit of regeneration.


From Cambridge Bible Schools for Colleges:

Here St Paul leaves the special features of Abraham’s case, to enforce the principle of Justification by an extreme case. He contemplates a man so emphatically “without works” as to be an open sinner: now, this man is justified, is declared to be accepted as righteous, on the sole condition of faith in the Justifier.

.
This is error, Faith isnt a condition for God to Justify a ungodly person, Christs death for them is the condition, then later God gives Faith to receive the knowledge of it.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
3,407
229
63
renewed

brightfame52 said:
Therefore being Justified looks back to the conclusion of Rom 4:25 at the witness of the resurrection, which witness affirms that those Christ died for, He was raised for their Justification.
That is your problem. You remove single verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them and then veer off to your erroneous dogma.
Thats your problem, Faith receives, embraces the testification of Christs resurrection, that them He died for are Justified. Faith receives that testimony, you dont Again 1 Cor 15:17

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

But since Christ was raised for our Justification as shown in Rom 4:25, them He rose for are not in their sins, so God given Faith embraces, receives that Divine Testimony.

Yet you deny it, frankly that's unbelief. You dont believe sinners Christ died for no longer have any sin to be laid to their charge, and are Justified.

Another claim of your erroneous dogma:

"those Christ died for"

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
All these verses are restricted to the Justified, the saved


Such ones will be given Faith to believe
Looking at the faith of Abraham as shown in Romans 4, nowhere does Scripture state that God gave Abraham faith and then Abraham believed.

What we read is that Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness (Rom 4:3).

Even going back to Genesis where we first read of the faith of Abraham:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

You add to Scripture what is not stated in Scripture.
All whom Christ died for and Justified will be given Faith to believe it.


Also the believing comes through the power of the Holy Ghost
According to Romans 15:13, what "comes through the power of the Holy Ghost" is our abounding in hope:

Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

We abound in hope through the power of the Holy Ghost.
Faith, believing is the fruit and power of the Spirit working in a person.


nope … factual statement.

Please note I did not call you a buffoon ... I asked you to stop "acting like a buffoon". There is a difference.

If you need me to explain the difference, please let me know and I will be happy to do so.
More insults.