Why do we believe the Bible is inerrant?
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Maybe it is, however, I don't recall Paul ever saying "thus saith the LORD!".. And if it was all God breathed, then Paul wouldn't have to correct himself as he did in 1 Corinthians on who he baptized. Not only that, but just because the Holy Spirit instructed Paul on the ways of God doesn't necessarily mean all his letters are God Breathed. That said, I believe that all Paul said is true. There are many preachers and teachers who speak with the Holy Spirit directing their words, does that mean their words are God Breathed? Perhaps many people speaking here on CC do so with the Holy Spirit guiding them, are their words God Breathed?
It doesn't surprise me much you disagree with what I say or teach, we agree on very little of the non-essential stuff. Doesn't bother me tho. God Bless.
It doesn't surprise me much you disagree with what I say or teach, we agree on very little of the non-essential stuff. Doesn't bother me tho. God Bless.
Because it can't be proven wrong, and I've tested it.. Paul did say "Consider what I say, and may God give you understanding", he didn't say "my words are a direct revelation from God, and may God give you understanding".
This is the reason I don't come here much anymore, Christian spoon-fed fundametalism.
This is the reason I don't come here much anymore, Christian spoon-fed fundametalism.
Becareful, given wisdom and given a direct word from God are two different things. Lets examine what Peter didn't say, he didn't say Paul's words are God Breathed. Not only that, is Paul the only one given wisdom? Are all who are given wisdom speak God Breathed words? I guess we can twist anything to make something say what we want it to, to fit our belief system. Anyway, God Bless.
It is you who needs to be careful. Contextually Peter said Paul's writings were Scripture; 2 Peter 3:16 and all Scripture is inspired of God; 2 Timothy 3:16. It's OK with me if you want to disagree with Scripture, but telling another to be careful for doing so is over the top and appears quite smug.
Talk about category errors and logical fallacies. Wow.
Well, how ironic because you've done this very thing. Your belief system is to deny inspiration of NT texts, to lightly rebuke those who do believe Scripture as inspired, and to twist Scriptures while offering fallacious argumentation in order to do so.
Then it ends with a nonchalant attitude about it all while doing it.
Interesting to say the least.
Talk about category errors and logical fallacies. Wow.
Well, how ironic because you've done this very thing. Your belief system is to deny inspiration of NT texts, to lightly rebuke those who do believe Scripture as inspired, and to twist Scriptures while offering fallacious argumentation in order to do so.
Then it ends with a nonchalant attitude about it all while doing it.
Interesting to say the least.
Thanks, I was aware that some translate it as God of gods. Still it is implied that there are other gods. Who do you suppose the sons of Elohim are? Was Moses not privileged to Egyptian scholars. Archeology shows that Egyptians may have been a lot more advanced than we generally give them credit for.
Yes all Scripture is inspired by God, I agree with that. At the time this NT passage was written the NT was not put together. The question is did Paul consider his letters, the epistles, scripture! You can't prove that he does, because the bible doesn't say.
If all of Paul's writings are 100 God Breathed, then why aren't women silent in church? Why aren't you vocal about it? Why don't you met your brothers with a holy kiss? Why do you disobey God?
If all of Paul's writings are 100 God Breathed, then why aren't women silent in church? Why aren't you vocal about it? Why don't you met your brothers with a holy kiss? Why do you disobey God?
With all I said, I still believe that God had put the whole bible together for our benefit, instruction, confirmation, and guidance. I question if the NT is God Breathed yes, because it doesn't claim it. If it is, that's fine, if it isn't-that's fine with me too, because I know it to be true, it has passed the truth test. The NT sheds light on the OT, because the NT authors quote the OT in give additional light.
Do many teachers and pastors speak via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Yes. Does that mean their words are God-Breathed, no in my opinion. Does Paul words hold more weight that your above average teacher or preacher, yes. Paul was an apostle, he had a personal encounter by Jesus and given a commission. Are his words God inspired, Yes, God-Breathed, I simple don't know, he doesn't claim it nor does another apostle. I guess I see God-Breathed and God inspired as two different levels of Godly communication whereas you see them as the same. So be be it. Treat me as an unbeliever if it pleases your click and make you feel pious.
Do many teachers and pastors speak via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Yes. Does that mean their words are God-Breathed, no in my opinion. Does Paul words hold more weight that your above average teacher or preacher, yes. Paul was an apostle, he had a personal encounter by Jesus and given a commission. Are his words God inspired, Yes, God-Breathed, I simple don't know, he doesn't claim it nor does another apostle. I guess I see God-Breathed and God inspired as two different levels of Godly communication whereas you see them as the same. So be be it. Treat me as an unbeliever if it pleases your click and make you feel pious.
Hi bookends,
We need to consider the context though. And actually we should go through chapter one as well. But I won’t here, but it would be good to go through both 1 & 2 Timothy.
2 Timothy 2: 1-7
You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
Here, Paul is about to die. He’s in prison and knows his time is short. So he’s entreating Timothy to carry on as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. He’s kind of like giving Timothy his blessings to carry on with his ministry after he’s gone. All the things that Paul taught Timothy, he’s to entrust them to faith men of God who will carry on the same doctrines and the same teachings. And those men were to carry on with Paul’s teaching.
Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier. Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
Timothy is to think on what Paul has told him, to consider it to the point where he understands it and Paul assures him that God will enlighten him and give the understanding in EVERYTHING Paul has spoken.
We need to consider the context though. And actually we should go through chapter one as well. But I won’t here, but it would be good to go through both 1 & 2 Timothy.
2 Timothy 2: 1-7
You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
Here, Paul is about to die. He’s in prison and knows his time is short. So he’s entreating Timothy to carry on as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. He’s kind of like giving Timothy his blessings to carry on with his ministry after he’s gone. All the things that Paul taught Timothy, he’s to entrust them to faith men of God who will carry on the same doctrines and the same teachings. And those men were to carry on with Paul’s teaching.
Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier. Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
Timothy is to think on what Paul has told him, to consider it to the point where he understands it and Paul assures him that God will enlighten him and give the understanding in EVERYTHING Paul has spoken.
Au contraire',,,,While God may not be his Proper Name (Yahweh), God, Lord, etc are all names that the people of the world call HIM...... Here is one such verse where the Name God is God.
psa 75:1
[[To the chief Musician, Altaschith, A Psalm or Song of Asaph.]] Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare.
psa 76:1..[To the chief Musician on Neginoth, A Psalm or Song of Asaph.]]" In Judah is God known: his name is great in Israel."
I submit there are many other passages that do the same as the above do. God is the Name of our Lord, Our Savior!
I am going to disagree with you for 2 reasons. 1. I am not going to call GOD a liar.
2. I know his word is God. I was going to give you several but the one scripture that Jumps out at a time where hell on earth is real.......Rev. 19:12-13...."12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
read it an weep for a long time.....Calling God a Liar is not a really good thing to do...For those that do that, my heart aches for there is very likely no hope for their future.
2. I know his word is God. I was going to give you several but the one scripture that Jumps out at a time where hell on earth is real.......Rev. 19:12-13...."12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
read it an weep for a long time.....Calling God a Liar is not a really good thing to do...For those that do that, my heart aches for there is very likely no hope for their future.
Because it is a true story this Book of Books. The truth is inerrant inherently.
What some people do is take the Bible to an idol and confused, understand it not.
Don't feel bad, everyone here has been there.
Now let me explain. The Bible as a physical object, the physical book itself is very much fallible as are all books.
It is made from the flesh of the trees hewn down by mighty men and lined with the inks of the animals and ground.
Its cover, usually leather, is of the hide of cows or artificially produced of the oils and powders.
Very susceptible to tears and burns. Printing and ripping and time's slow turns.
How easy it is to be thrown into the fire just like the very words within it spell out.
Copied and translated and for millennia passed down by the same men it's about.
Many take it as their link to the God of the Bible, the most famous character inside of it, and Jesus his Son.
Killed by the same people leading the churches and the so-called masters of these Books in their time of the world.
The lesson is it's not the book itself that is inerrant. Consider as it is played with, tossed around by all sorts of powers.
It's the promises and testimonies and men in the page, they are all true and truth is inerrant.
If then what is said of the past rings true; what then of the future and present?
It must be true too, and if then it is true then Jesus says love God and love neighbor.
For the world shall be ending soon.
Praise the Holy Holy God for the compassion of his Son Jesus' blessing and boon.
What some people do is take the Bible to an idol and confused, understand it not.
Don't feel bad, everyone here has been there.
Now let me explain. The Bible as a physical object, the physical book itself is very much fallible as are all books.
It is made from the flesh of the trees hewn down by mighty men and lined with the inks of the animals and ground.
Its cover, usually leather, is of the hide of cows or artificially produced of the oils and powders.
Very susceptible to tears and burns. Printing and ripping and time's slow turns.
How easy it is to be thrown into the fire just like the very words within it spell out.
Copied and translated and for millennia passed down by the same men it's about.
Many take it as their link to the God of the Bible, the most famous character inside of it, and Jesus his Son.
Killed by the same people leading the churches and the so-called masters of these Books in their time of the world.
The lesson is it's not the book itself that is inerrant. Consider as it is played with, tossed around by all sorts of powers.
It's the promises and testimonies and men in the page, they are all true and truth is inerrant.
If then what is said of the past rings true; what then of the future and present?
It must be true too, and if then it is true then Jesus says love God and love neighbor.
For the world shall be ending soon.
Praise the Holy Holy God for the compassion of his Son Jesus' blessing and boon.
Where did you read that God said that the Bible is inerrant? I ask this because there is not so much as one verse in the Bible that says, implies, or suggests that the Bible is inerrant. Indeed, the concept ‘the Bible’ did not even exist until late in the 4th century!
Moreover, in 1 Cor.7:12 and 7:25 Paul makes it very clear that he is stating his personal opinion.
1 Cor. 7:12. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.
1 Cor. 7: 25. Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.
Could it be more clear that Paul did NOT believe that he was writing Scripture?
Furthermore, Luke writes,
Luke 1:1. Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,
3. it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus;
4. so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.
Luke clearly writes that he got his information by investigating everything clearly from the beginning. I believe that he is telling the truth here.
Additionally, all four of the gospels record the three denials of Peter—and they disagree regarding to whom Peter denied knowing Jesus. Indeed, they even disagree regarding the sex of the persons to whom Peter denied knowing Jesus.
Moreover, in 1 Cor.7:12 and 7:25 Paul makes it very clear that he is stating his personal opinion.
1 Cor. 7:12. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.
1 Cor. 7: 25. Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.
Could it be more clear that Paul did NOT believe that he was writing Scripture?
Furthermore, Luke writes,
Luke 1:1. Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,
3. it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus;
4. so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.
Luke clearly writes that he got his information by investigating everything clearly from the beginning. I believe that he is telling the truth here.
Additionally, all four of the gospels record the three denials of Peter—and they disagree regarding to whom Peter denied knowing Jesus. Indeed, they even disagree regarding the sex of the persons to whom Peter denied knowing Jesus.
Moreover, Luke writes,
Luke 16:18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
And Mark agrees,
Mark 10:11. And He *said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”
As does Paul,
1 Cor. 7:10. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11. (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
But Matthew, in his gospel as it has come down to us, disagrees! He says there is an exception,
Matt. 19:3. Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”
4. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6. “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
7. They *said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?”
8. He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10. The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
11. But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
12. “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”
In v.9, we have what is known in the theology of divorce and remarriage as the ‘exception clause,’ “except for immorality.” This clause not only contradicts what Matthew and Luke wrote, it also contradicts Genesis 2:24—and it also contradicts what Jesus Himself said in this passage,
4. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6. “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
7. They *said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?”
8. He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
And immediately after this, Matt. 19:9 has Jesus telling the Pharisees that there is an exception!
In Matt. 19:3-12, we find a group of Pharisees attempting to trap Jesus into taking sides in a theological debate and stir up strife by asking Jesus to take a side in the Hillel-Shammai dispute that was raging at the time. The very popular and theologically liberal Rabbi Hillel taught that it was lawful for a Jewish man to divorce his wife for any cause whatsoever; the far less popular and theologically conservative Rabbi Shammai taught that it was lawful for a Jewish man to divorce his wife only if she had committed adultery against him. The Pharisees knew that Jesus was very conservative in His theology and they knew that He would most likely take the side of Rabbi Shammai, and consequently become, along with Rabbi Shammai, far less popular.
If the exception clause in Matt. 19:9 is genuine scripture rather than a very early addition to the original text, we have Jesus falling right into the trap set for Him by the Pharisees and taking the side of Rabbi Shammai. In my opinion, Jesus was not so foolish as to fall into such a trap and that He actually replied to them,
9. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery.”
That this was His actual reply is confirmed by the reaction of His disciples,
10. The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
Alan Hugh McNeile, Alfred Plummer, Joseph F. Fitzmyer, and Willoughby C. Allen, in their commentaries on the Greek text of Mathew, all agree that the exception clause could not possibly have come from the mouth of Jesus.
(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
Luke 16:18. “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
And Mark agrees,
Mark 10:11. And He *said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”
As does Paul,
1 Cor. 7:10. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11. (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
But Matthew, in his gospel as it has come down to us, disagrees! He says there is an exception,
Matt. 19:3. Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”
4. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6. “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
7. They *said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?”
8. He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10. The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
11. But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
12. “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”
In v.9, we have what is known in the theology of divorce and remarriage as the ‘exception clause,’ “except for immorality.” This clause not only contradicts what Matthew and Luke wrote, it also contradicts Genesis 2:24—and it also contradicts what Jesus Himself said in this passage,
4. And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6. “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
7. They *said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?”
8. He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
And immediately after this, Matt. 19:9 has Jesus telling the Pharisees that there is an exception!
In Matt. 19:3-12, we find a group of Pharisees attempting to trap Jesus into taking sides in a theological debate and stir up strife by asking Jesus to take a side in the Hillel-Shammai dispute that was raging at the time. The very popular and theologically liberal Rabbi Hillel taught that it was lawful for a Jewish man to divorce his wife for any cause whatsoever; the far less popular and theologically conservative Rabbi Shammai taught that it was lawful for a Jewish man to divorce his wife only if she had committed adultery against him. The Pharisees knew that Jesus was very conservative in His theology and they knew that He would most likely take the side of Rabbi Shammai, and consequently become, along with Rabbi Shammai, far less popular.
If the exception clause in Matt. 19:9 is genuine scripture rather than a very early addition to the original text, we have Jesus falling right into the trap set for Him by the Pharisees and taking the side of Rabbi Shammai. In my opinion, Jesus was not so foolish as to fall into such a trap and that He actually replied to them,
9. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery.”
That this was His actual reply is confirmed by the reaction of His disciples,
10. The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
Alan Hugh McNeile, Alfred Plummer, Joseph F. Fitzmyer, and Willoughby C. Allen, in their commentaries on the Greek text of Mathew, all agree that the exception clause could not possibly have come from the mouth of Jesus.
(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
You're doin' alright, Hungry! You are not "normal"!...But, that's a good thing! Being "normal", means general consensus! Being a normal christian, would be something like, this earth is only 6,000 years old. This is generally accepted as "Biblical" truth. Therefore, normal! You don't believe that, and neither do I. To those that don't believe it?...That's alright...for yourselves!...Not alright for me, however. People are so want to be accepted by their fellow man, that they will (and have), watered down their own interpretation/s of the Bible, to be acceptable to a majority, ie being normal. To me?....they've put God...in a box! Which is why I don't attend any particular church, very often! I have even attended church services, where I walked in feeling love in my heart, and a song on my lips, and could virtually feel, or sense, the box being built, and the cover closing! More times then I care to relate, I have spoken with people, about different interpretations of the Bible, and was answered in almost a whimpering "cop out", that "I've only been a christian for a coupla years!"....
FWIW Hungry?....If you've had a spiritual rebirth, or born from above, and are being shown certain things, or you are "seeing" things differently now, then many other christians?....that's cool!...But, it's not normal! In walks where normal christians ever hope to attain?...To you?...It's "just another town along the road!" Rather comes with the territory. And don't let other posters cause you to close your lid!
FWIW Hungry?....If you've had a spiritual rebirth, or born from above, and are being shown certain things, or you are "seeing" things differently now, then many other christians?....that's cool!...But, it's not normal! In walks where normal christians ever hope to attain?...To you?...It's "just another town along the road!" Rather comes with the territory. And don't let other posters cause you to close your lid!