Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[Guojing]

Why would you argue that they have ceased, then? How does it make any sense to argue for cessationism if you think they will occur again? Where does the Bible teach that they start then restart?

Its link to my point 1 and 7.

Since signs are for the nation of Israel, Israel was once God's favored nation, it ceased when Israel the nation has fallen.

But during the Tribulation, it will be God's favored nation again. So naturally, signs will make a comeback.

 

[presidente]

When the bible was completed the bible was complete. No additional revelation.

That's not the same thing. No man can know the Father without revelation. No man knows the Father but the Son and he to whom the Son reveals him.

You are inviting in error if you endeavor to add to what God has given. God now speaks through the word He has delivered to us in the bible.

You are inviting error if you seek to subtract from what God has given by not accepting the teaching of scripture on spiritual gifts.

You really don't see what is being revealed in 1 Cor 13. The NT was not complete when 1 Cor 13:8 as penned. During the apostolic time none of them had a NT from which to describe Christ. Such is not the case today. You are not apostolic nor am I.

The issue here is that you eisegete the idea of the completed NT into a passage where it does not fit. The completion of the New Testament did not make Paul's understanding when he was writing much of it like a child's in comparison to your understanding.

Here you are wrong. With the completion of the NT the future telling ministry ended. Now prophecy is forth telling what God has revealed.

If you want to fabricate doctrine do not pretend like you get your doctrine from scripture. What justification could you have for arbitrarily redefining words in the Bible? What would you say if someone else did this with another word-- for example, if they said that fornication was only sex outside of marriage in the Bible, but now, only sex with someone who doesn't like you is 'fornication'? How about if someone said that murder only meant unjustified killing in Biblical times, but now it doesn't include abortion? It is really convenient for the flesh if one believes he is justified in redefining Biblical terms to mean whatever he likes.

Help yourself. The quality of disciple produced testifies to the merits of your position.

Do quality disciples condemn others with poor misinterpretation of scriptures on forums like these?

There are many godly saints who operate in a variety of spiritual gifts.

The passage in 1 Thess 5 is quite on point to refute you position. Prove all things including prophecy and especially prophecy. Test what is said from the pulpit against the word of God. If it is good then you are to submit to it.

The Bible speaks of other gifts besides prophesying, teaching for example. The New Testament does not mention a 'pulpit' at all. Peter describes prophesying as speaking as moved by the Spirit of God. Show me one ancient reference where the Greek word translated 'prophesying' does not refer to speaking (ostensibly at least) under the inspiration of God, or (spirits or gods if used in a pagan context.) 'Prophesy' in scripture is revelatory in nature. Like we see in I Corinthians 14, if a revelation comes to one sitting by, let the first hold his peace, for ye may all prophesy....

Interpretation is required if any are to understand. It must be a language among men that can be interpreted.

In many cases it is, but that is a moot point since interpretation also comes through a gift of the Spirit. Paul wrote about the 'tongues of men and of angels.' I know a lot of interpreters with an agenda want us to believe that tongues of angels are impossible based on 'because I say so' type reasoning or just plain sophistry. Most of the other things he mentions in those parallel arguments are real, not impossible.

Paul was multilingual. You do not have a clue as to what he is teaching in the passage. Paul is not saying that he prays in an unknown tongue.

He said 'I speak with tongues more than ye all' in a passage about __praying__ with tongues. Your interpretation would wrest the verse from context and have Paul speaking about something he doesn't talk about in the passage. Paul also contrasted speaking in tongues with praying with his mind. You have his speaking in tongues be a form of praying with his mind.

You are taking the wrong direction on that phrase. Understanding is key to any communication. Growth and discipleship requires understanding. Speaking in unknown languages that no one in the room understands is fruitless. A fruitless enterprise that is consuming the modern church and robbing believers of any growth in Christ.

Speaking in tongues edifies the one who does it. This is a good thing and Paul wished his readers would do so. But edifying the church is superior, so Paul would rather that his readers prophesy or interpret tongues.

I Corinthians 14
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

The restriction on not speaking in tongues without interpretation is specifically given for the context of a church meeting.

Speaking in tongues together with interpretation does edify the church. These are gifts of the Spirit, so we should have respect for them.

 

[presidente]

Its link to my point 1 and 7.

Since signs are for the nation of Israel, Israel was once God's favored nation, it ceased when Israel the nation has fallen.

But during the Tribulation, it will be God's favored nation again. So naturally, signs will make a comeback.

Your points have been debunked. Signs are not exclusively for the nation of Israel. I showed from scripture that they are also for Gentiles. There is no reason to think Israel does not have a favored nation's status, since God is using the work among the Gentiles to provoke Israelites to jealousy.

I do not believe you responded to my answers to each of your points, previously. You refer to verses that do not support your assertions and there is no case for cessationism in the verses you present.

 

[luigi]

you Do agree that there are some instructions in the 4 gospels that only apply to the 12 correct?

While I do agree that there are some instructions in the four gospels specifically directed to the apostles present; John 14:12 where the Lord says that those who believe on Him will do the works Jesus did, and even greater works, applies to all who believe on Christ. You again seem to want to obfuscate from what is clearly stated. The reason why so many people want to find away around why they are not doing the works Christ did, or even greater works, is because it would mean that in fact they do not believe on Him, and are of very little faith, being double minded, having faith in both Christ and Mammon. Some people simply cannot admit the truth.

 

[Guojing]

Your points have been debunked. Signs are not exclusively for the nation of Israel. I showed from scripture that they are also for Gentiles. There is no reason to think Israel does not have a favored nation's status, since God is using the work among the Gentiles to provoke Israelites to jealousy.

I do not believe you responded to my answers to each of your points, previously. You refer to verses that do not support your assertions and there is no case for cessationism in the verses you present.

You just have a different interpretation from me, regarding the scriptures. I have responded to your points but you have a different view and understand it differently, that is fine.

You have made your point, I have made mine. We can agree to disagree aka Romans 14:5.

Thanks for sharing your interpretation.

 

[Guojing]

While I do agree that there are some instructions in the four gospels specifically directed to the apostles present; John 14:12 where the Lord says that those who believe on Him will do the works Jesus did, and even greater works, applies to all who believe on Christ. You again seem to want to obfuscate from what is clearly stated. The reason why so many people want to find away around why they are not doing the works Christ did, or even greater works, is because it would mean that in fact they do not believe on Him, and are of very little faith, being double minded, having faith in both Christ and Mammon. Some people simply cannot admit the truth.

So which ones do you think it was only given to the 12? Let me know.

 

[presidente]

You just have a different interpretation from me, regarding the scriptures. I have responded to your points but you have a different view and understand it differently, that is fine.

The issue is that your method of interpretation of this involves just having a theory and decorating it with some Bible verses rather than deriving your doctrine from actual teaching of scripture.

 

[Guojing]

The issue is that your method of interpretation of this involves just having a theory and decorating it with some Bible verses rather than deriving your doctrine from actual teaching of scripture.

If you view it from my perspective, you are also doing the same thing

 

[notuptome]

That's not the same thing. No man can know the Father without revelation. No man knows the Father but the Son and he to whom the Son reveals him.

The Holy Spirit only speaks that which He has heard from the Father. The Holy Spirit does not act outside of the word of God.

You are inviting error if you seek to subtract from what God has given by not accepting the teaching of scripture on spiritual gifts.

Spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit. Three gifts have ended only three.

Speaking in tongues together with interpretation does edify the church. These are gifts of the Spirit, so we should have respect for them.

Except that the gift of tongues ended. Tongues are languages that people speak. Interpretation is required for those who do not speak a common language. For example an English speaking pastor preaching to an audience in Haiti needs an interpreter to interpret for the audience or there is no understanding of what was preached.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[luigi]

So which ones do you think it was only given to the 12? Let me know.

The Lord clearly states in John 14:12 that all who believe in Him will do the works he did and even greater works. This means everyone who believes on Christ will do the works Christ did and even greater works. When I cannot do the works Christ did, I then realize the problem is with me and not the Word. I do not go and try to spin the truth so that I can feel better about myself.

 

[Guojing]

The Lord clearly states in John 14:12 that all who believe in Him will do the works he did and even greater works. This means everyone who believes on Christ will do the works Christ did and even greater works. When I cannot do the works Christ did, I then realize the problem is with me and not the Word. I do not go and try to spin the truth so that I can feel better about myself.

Alright then. Interesting that you used the gospel of John, because in that book, the works are always linked to the signs Jesus did.

I understand why you would think signs and wonders still hold for you then

 

[oyster67]

Yes, I agree that signs and wonders will be making a comeback during the Tribulation, when God deals with the nation Israel once again.

Is that your point too?

My point is that I don't ever want to be found trying to put God in a box.

 

[Dino246]

Except that the gift of tongues ended. Tongues are languages that people speak.

Well, I've seen some doozies of self-contradiction, but this wins the prize for today.

If "tongues" are merely the languages that people speak, and tongues have "ended", what exactly are people speaking today?

 

[awelight]

I would not disagree with that statement, but not if you equate 'the word of God' exactly with scripture, as opposed to working in concert with the divine Logos. The Spirit hovered upon the face of the deep and God said.



Who says that he does?



You are the one promoting ideas on this topic that are contrary to scripture.



If that is supposed to explain your interpretation of 'that which is perfect' in I Corinthians 13, you have a problem. Either you have to make Paul, the twelve apostles, and early Christians out to be like children still under a schoolmaster (which is not really consistent with the passage you are referring to from Galatians either) or acknowledge that they had already come to Christ either. Paul saw the revelation of Christ in the 'shadows', but he still wrote 'for we know in part and we prophesy in part.'


'Prophesy' in the Bible means what it means. Foretelling the future is one aspect of that, and we see this clearly in both Old and New Testament scriptures. Agabus fortold a famine. Prophecy can also tell the secrets of men's hearts, or whatever else the Spirit wants to move one to say.



I cannot say I have heard a Pentecostal say that, though I think there are some Charismatic groups that think that way. I do not rule out the possibility of false prophets either, neither would it be biblical to do so.






If you preach the Bible wrongly, should we stone you? If preaching the Bible is prophesying, should the pastor be stoned if he gets Elijah and Elisha mixed up in a sermon?



Your issue is with the practice of the apostles.
Acts 14
23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Titus 1
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

And with the direction of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 14
26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
Acts 13
1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

The idea that every local church should have a member, besides the Lord Himself, who is above all the other elders called a 'pastor' is totally without Biblical warrant. Some eisegete that idea into the mere mention of the word 'pastors' in Ephesians 4:11. In Acts 20:28 and I Peter 5:2, elders are exhorted to pastor.



There are many forms of ministry of the Spirit. Peter called the grace of God manifold, in the context of his instructions on spiritual gifts. But rejecting certain spiritual gifts based on poor, bias, myopic of interpretation of scripture is sad.

I Thessalonians 5
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Rejecting prophecies out of hand because they happen to be about the future is contrary to the teaching of this passage.



Surely, in all these years discussing this topic from time to time, you have actually read I Corinthians 14, haven't you? Paul says of the one speaking in tongues 'no one understands him.' Why would he say that if the issue were translating for other people in the church?



You should read the scriptures.

I Corinthians 14

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Would you please elaborate on this statement you made, in particular this underlined portion:

I would not disagree with that statement, but not if you equate 'the word of God' exactly with scripture, as opposed to working in concert with the divine Logos. The Spirit hovered upon the face of the deep and God said

 

[Guojing]

My point is that I don't ever want to be found trying to put God in a box.

Well, all of us believe that God can heal if he wants to, so we are not putting him in the box.

I am against WOF preachers preaching that is it always God's will to heal you. That naturally leads to the implication that, if you are not healed, the fault must be yours.

You see the difference?

 

[presidente]

Would you please elaborate on this statement you made, in particular this underlined portion:

I would not disagree with that statement, but not if you equate 'the word of God' exactly with scripture, as opposed to working in concert with the divine Logos. The Spirit hovered upon the face of the deep and God said

God created all things by the Word, Who upholds all things by the Word of His power. What the Word does is more than just speak through the Bible.

 

[presidente]

Spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit. Three gifts have ended only three.

A few posts back, you were arguing that prophesying was still going on. You can't seem to make up your mind.

Except that the gift of tongues ended. Tongues are languages that people speak.

Do you think tongues ended or that people still speak languages? What do you speak?

Interpretation is required for those who do not speak a common language. For example an English speaking pastor preaching to an audience in Haiti needs an interpreter to interpret for the audience or there is no understanding of what was preached.

If you think tongues are just natural languages, why would you think tongues ended?

And again, I Corinthians 14 is not giving instructions about natural languages. These are languages and interpretations given by means of a supernatural gift from the Holy Spirit. And when one spoke in tongues, Paul wrote, 'no man understandeth him.' He wasn't talking about translating into French or Creole for people in the congregation who knew that language.

For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]

 

[notuptome]

A few posts back, you were arguing that prophesying was still going on. You can't seem to make up your mind.

Prophesying as in preaching the word of God yes. Future telling no. Now you are acting without honor.

Do you think tongues ended or that people still speak languages? What do you speak?

What happened to your fidelity? The tongues of Acts 2 ended.

If you think tongues are just natural languages, why would you think tongues ended?

The tongues of Acts 2 ended per 1 Cor 13:8

And again, I Corinthians 14 is not giving instructions about natural languages. These are languages and interpretations given by means of a supernatural gift from the Holy Spirit. And when one spoke in tongues, Paul wrote, 'no man understandeth him.' He wasn't talking about translating into French or Creole for people in the congregation who knew that language.

You are now refusing to understand even in the language you do comprehend. If you will not show some fidelity you will progress no further. I Cor is speaking of natural languages. You are adding to what the scriptures are teaching due to a faulty foundation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Well, I've seen some doozies of self-contradiction, but this wins the prize for today.

If "tongues" are merely the languages that people speak, and tongues have "ended", what exactly are people speaking today?

Play your games and show forth your lack of fidelity. The supernatural tongues of Acts 2 ended but the natural languages continue. Gods judgment is not yet passed and has not yet fully manifested itself on the wicked.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Play your games and show forth your lack of fidelity. The supernatural tongues of Acts 2 ended but the natural languages continue. Gods judgment is not yet passed and has not yet fully manifested itself on the wicked.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'm not the one playing games; I'm merely pointing out your equivocation.

Tell me: since "interpretation of tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit that has not ended, what is it?

The answer that interpretation is "unusual ability to learn various human languages" fails, because non-believers have that gift.