Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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SophieT

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Dec 9, 2020
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.........do some people think
Why ^ the Sign Gifts Ended
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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.........do some people think
Why ^ the Sign Gifts Ended
Because it is taught in scripture. Three gifts specifically designated as ending. Why do you seek a sign?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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I'm not the one playing games; I'm merely pointing out your equivocation.

Tell me: since "interpretation of tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit that has not ended, what is it?

The answer that interpretation is "unusual ability to learn various human languages" fails, because non-believers have that gift.
The message is sent if faith and fidelity of God. It is received into corrupt minds of men. The problem is not with Gods word but the heart that rejects the truth.

It is the glory of kings to search out a matter. Languages are learned through hard work and God giving wisdom. There is no miraculous gift of languages as you demand so your accusation is revealed to be without merit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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The message is sent if faith and fidelity of God. It is received into corrupt minds of men. The problem is not with Gods word but the heart that rejects the truth.

It is the glory of kings to search out a matter. Languages are learned through hard work and God giving wisdom. There is no miraculous gift of languages as you demand so your accusation is revealed to be without merit.
Rejecting plain Scripture now, Roger? Or just playing equivocation games still?

The Holy Spirit gave the gift of speaking in tongues, and He gave the gift of interpretation of tongues.

You deny them both.

I shake my head.
 

SophieT

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Because it is taught in scripture. Three gifts specifically designated as ending. Why do you seek a sign?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The only sign I see is the one that you appear to be using. The sign of unbelief ;)
 

SophieT

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The current covid-19 pandemic and the helplessness of churches is one good reason.

Oh. In that case, I guess the Bubonic plague really did damage.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Prophesying as in preaching the word of God yes. Future telling no. Now you are acting without honor.
You are the one acting foolish. Why do you accuse me with no basis? You arbitrarily redefine words in scriptures? Your position makes no sense at all. If 'prophesying' includes the type of preaching you allow for, and preachers do so by the grace of God through the Holy Spirit, then the gift of prophesying has not ceased. Do a word study on 'charism' and 'charis.' On the one hand, you argue the gift has ceased, and on the other you argue it has not.

The idea that pulpit preaching is (or some of it can be) prophesying is contrary to the interpretation that prophecy ceased. There are many who think preaching is prophesying based on Calvin's understanding that _some_ preaching of the word is prophesying. Calvin also considered the interpretation that the perfect had already come to be stupid, according to his commentary on I Corinthians 13. But the preaching as prophesying and can be done today view is inconsistent with the idea that prophecy ceased.

What happened to your fidelity? The tongues of Acts 2 ended.
They ended. The people there stopped speaking in tongues, but other people started again in Acts 10, and they were speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14. If you think speaking in tongues in the context of I Corinthians 14 is talking about mundane speaking in other languages like the example of translating Haiti French or Creole into English or vice versa, then it makes no sense at all to say that it has ceased. And why would I Corinthians 13 be about a different type of 'tongues' than chapter 14? If you wanted, you could admit that chapter 14 is not talking about mundane translation of languages using the mind. But if that is your position, your interpretation seems to be rather nonsensical and self contradictory.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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I'm not the one playing games; I'm merely pointing out your equivocation.

Tell me: since "interpretation of tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit that has not ended, what is it?

The answer that interpretation is "unusual ability to learn various human languages" fails, because non-believers have that gift.
@notuptome

Yes explain this. If you believe that only three gifts have ceased, how does the gift of interpretation of tongues operate without the gift of 'divers tongues'?
 

SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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@notuptome

Yes explain this. If you believe that only three gifts have ceased, how does the gift of interpretation of tongues operate without the gift of 'divers tongues'?
Subbing to the thread to hear this explanation... and while we're there, I'd like to hear explanation also how at present day do we see God face to face, and know God as we are known, yet MORE and BETTER now than the apostles did (who were taught face to face by Jesus)? And please whoever undertakes to answer, don't try to tell me that "knowing God as we are known" and "seeing God face to face" is to have a book about God available and to read a book, because even an atheist can do that, so please come up with something remotely reasonably convincing. Thanks...
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Rejecting plain Scripture now, Roger? Or just playing equivocation games still?

The Holy Spirit gave the gift of speaking in tongues, and He gave the gift of interpretation of tongues.

You deny them both.

I shake my head.
You are rejecting Gods word. Tongues ceased. That would mean that you are not receiving Gods word in Spirit and truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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You are rejecting Gods word. Tongues ceased. That would mean that you are not receiving Gods word in Spirit and truth.
Your comments above are based only on your opinion.

I'm still waiting for your response on the gift of interpretation of tongues.
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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A few posts back, you were arguing that prophesying was still going on. You can't seem to make up your mind.



Do you think tongues ended or that people still speak languages? What do you speak?



If you think tongues are just natural languages, why would you think tongues ended?

And again, I Corinthians 14 is not giving instructions about natural languages. These are languages and interpretations given by means of a supernatural gift from the Holy Spirit. And when one spoke in tongues, Paul wrote, 'no man understandeth him.' He wasn't talking about translating into French or Creole for people in the congregation who knew that language.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
[/QUOTE]

Now you know the gift of tongues (language), as discussed in the Scriptures, is the ability to speak a foreign language by the power of the Holy Spirit. A language not previously known by the speaker. This particular gift has ceased. This does not include the gibberish spoken in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches today. The sole called gibberish being assigned to some kind of "angelic" language or heavenly language is not Biblical. In 1 Cor. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. , though many use this verse as some sort of proof text, Paul was not saying he could do these things. The reader was to acknowledge a form of sarcasm here:

Paul could not do the following:

1) Speak in all of the languages of men.
2) Speak as an angel.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3) He did have the gift of prophecy but he did not understand ALL mysteries.
4) He did not have ALL knowledge.
5) His faith was not such he could move mountains.

These items were for contrast only. Paul was saying "IF" I could do all these things and had not love, then it would all be for nothing.
 

awelight

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God created all things by the Word, Who upholds all things by the Word of His power. What the Word does is more than just speak through the Bible.
Granted. However, are you suggesting that the Word is still speaking directly to people today, apart from the study of Scripture?
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Your comments above are based only on your opinion.

I'm still waiting for your response on the gift of interpretation of tongues.
Have you ever endeavored to interpret from one language to another? Like speaking in a second language it requires some skill and knowledge of grammar in both languages.

You question like most you pose has an alternate motive but like the interpretation of the bible from Hebrew and Greek into English was no small feat.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Subbing to the thread to hear this explanation... and while we're there, I'd like to hear explanation also how at present day do we see God face to face, and know God as we are known, yet MORE and BETTER now than the apostles did (who were taught face to face by Jesus)? And please whoever undertakes to answer, don't try to tell me that "knowing God as we are known" and "seeing God face to face" is to have a book about God available and to read a book, because even an atheist can do that, so please come up with something remotely reasonably convincing. Thanks...
The scripture reveals to us how God sees what we are doing. We are sanctified by the word of God. The atheist is not sanctified. Believers are not fully sanctified until we are glorified in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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@notuptome

Yes explain this. If you believe that only three gifts have ceased, how does the gift of interpretation of tongues operate without the gift of 'divers tongues'?
Quite well actually. Study and application of knowledge in interpreting one language into another. How did the bible interpreters do taking the Hebrew and Greek and writing it out in English?
@notuptome Your interpretation of the definitions/meaning of tongues and prophecy reminds me of Fizzbin.
I believe it is you that fails to first define which terms you are using in any discussion. If you actually used biblical definitions in your discussions you would not create doubt and strife among the body of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Major

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Dec 12, 2020
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The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:
  1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
  2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
  3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
  4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
  5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
  6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
  7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
  8. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
  9. By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
  10. Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.
Any comments and different perspectives?
The "Sign Gifts" ended because they were given to the Apostles by Jesus Christ in the Great Comission of Mark 16:14-16......
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. "

Only the ELEVEN Apostles plus Paul had the Sign Gifts as they were the only Apostles. When they died the Sign Gifts ended.

1 Corth. 13:8-9 is your confirmation where we see..........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. "

The "PERFECT" in the original Greek is "Teleion" which means COMPLETE. IMHO is the completed Written Word of God.

IT can not mean Jesus Christ as He has always been perfect and did not become complete as He always was.

IT can not mean the 2nd Coming of Christ at the Rapture as there will be millions left behind who will get saved.

IT can not be heaven as 13:10 says the Perfect is come. Heaven does not come to us....we go to it.

By simple eliminatiion IMO we can see that the only perfect thing left that has come is the "Completed" Word of God.