Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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Hi Penn , that is how I was when I thought I could lose my Salvation , I lived in fear...
I was not living in the Eternal Security that God had given me through our LORD , I was living in fear , fearing every wrong move or thought...
It was not until I had been saved about a year or so that I came to CC , and my brothers & sisters also showed me through their constant ferm stance that my security lies in what Jesus has done , and not what I can do...
After that the Holy Spirit of God really opened up the Scriptures for me , and then I found I could read without fear , replaced with love and sound mind...
The devil uses our mind as a playground , telling us we are not worthy , but Jesus tells us no one can snatch us from His hands , and our heavenly Father has His hands wrapped around His Sons , nothing can separate us from the double hands that keep us in Gods safety...
All the glory to God Amen...xox...\
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I was not living in the Eternal Security that God had given me through our LORD , I was living in fear , fearing every wrong move or thought...
It was not until I had been saved about a year or so that I came to CC , and my brothers & sisters also showed me through their constant ferm stance that my security lies in what Jesus has done , and not what I can do...
After that the Holy Spirit of God really opened up the Scriptures for me , and then I found I could read without fear , replaced with love and sound mind...
The devil uses our mind as a playground , telling us we are not worthy , but Jesus tells us no one can snatch us from His hands , and our heavenly Father has His hands wrapped around His Sons , nothing can separate us from the double hands that keep us in Gods safety...
All the glory to God Amen...xox...\
/...
I wish I could give a TRIPLE Winner ribbon! So much Truth here dear.
And the craziest part, that defies human logic and reasoning, is that now that I know I'm secure in Christ forever I SIN LESS!!! Want to spend more time with Him, Love others more, etc....
THAT, is an undeniable truth for me. Just like you said. LOVE is the motivating factor now in not sinning and NOT fear.
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You may make such a statement as you did in bold print: that is your prerogative!
I believe that what Satan is most after is to take away the faith of believers and to keep unbelievers from coming to faith in Christ. Jesus told Peter, "I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not". God's salvation is perfect; no doubt about that! The Bible says so! The problem is us mortals in our flesh are not perfect yet! (though in Christ Jesus our spirits are made perfect - PTL)
I believe that what Satan is most after is to take away the faith of believers and to keep unbelievers from coming to faith in Christ. Jesus told Peter, "I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not". God's salvation is perfect; no doubt about that! The Bible says so! The problem is us mortals in our flesh are not perfect yet! (though in Christ Jesus our spirits are made perfect - PTL)
U
Hello UnderGrace,
How do you understand the word "repentance" and what it means in the original Greek?
How do you understand the word "repentance" and what it means in the original Greek?
It was actually the Reformation that saw the new church fathers begin to go back to the Classical Greek.
Both Luther and Calvin desired to remove the concept of penance from the meaning of repentance.
They very accurately looked at the root of the meaning of the word repentance: meta=after; noeo=to think. Put the two together and the effect of meta was “after the fact” or “afterwards.”
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Here is what I believe about forgiveness of sins:
(1) Jesus died for the sins of the entire world - that is - his death makes forgiveness of sins available to all who come to him in faith
(2) When a person comes to Christ in faith all of their past sins are forgiven because of Jesus' shed blood.
(3) When a Christian commits a sin (and Christians do sin sometimes) that sin is forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ. God does not hold the sin of a believer against him: it is immediately and completely covered by the blood of Jesus - I John 1:9 - he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
The basis of forgiveness is always the blood of Jesus Christ. I am not forgiven because I obey, repent, etc. Now, of course, when the believer understands his sin, the normal response is to repent and mourn over that sin.
My belief is different than the typical OSAS understanding because that understanding says all of our sins were past, present, and future were forgiven either when Jesus died (5 point Calvinism) or when we were justified (OSAS only). I find no reference to the forgiveness of future sins in the Bible. My sins are forgiven daily and moment by moment as I commit them, and as long as I am in Christ I have this promise of forgiveness and eternal life.
Hallelujah and praise the Lord for His sacrifice, for His love, and for His mercy!
(1) Jesus died for the sins of the entire world - that is - his death makes forgiveness of sins available to all who come to him in faith
(2) When a person comes to Christ in faith all of their past sins are forgiven because of Jesus' shed blood.
(3) When a Christian commits a sin (and Christians do sin sometimes
) that sin is forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ. God does not hold the sin of a believer against him: it is immediately and completely covered by the blood of Jesus - I John 1:9 - he is faithful and just to forgive us our sinsThe basis of forgiveness is always the blood of Jesus Christ. I am not forgiven because I obey, repent, etc. Now, of course, when the believer understands his sin, the normal response is to repent and mourn over that sin.
My belief is different than the typical OSAS understanding because that understanding says all of our sins were past, present, and future were forgiven either when Jesus died (5 point Calvinism) or when we were justified (OSAS only). I find no reference to the forgiveness of future sins in the Bible. My sins are forgiven daily and moment by moment as I commit them, and as long as I am in Christ I have this promise of forgiveness and eternal life.
Hallelujah and praise the Lord for His sacrifice, for His love, and for His mercy!
U
Hello UnderGrace,
How do you understand the word "repentance" and what it means in the original Greek?
How do you understand the word "repentance" and what it means in the original Greek?
In the Old Latin and Latin Vulgate metanoia was translated as paenitentia which came to mean penance or acts of penance that had to be done if one hoped to obtain grace.
Penance >>>>> Repentance, this is the wrong understanding of the word "metanoia"
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Ah! You have to give me a little time. I needed to help my daughter do some research for a car she want to buy - my internet rambling had to wait - and even now I only have a few minutes: After I am done - you will likely have more I need to answer - and I will not be back till tomorrow! You will have to be patient!
So you jumped in and strung two verses together before I could answer the question you asked - that is OK - because I like to have a lot of fun stringing verses together too . . .
First one:
I Cor. 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
So circumcision or uncircumcision is a "calling" and if the "gifts and calling" of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29 )then we will be circumcised or uncircumcised in heaven as we are here on Earth.
Second one:
And prophecy is a gift - and since the "gifts and calling of God" are irrevocable then that means if you have the gift of prophecy now you will have it for all eternity. !!! ??? but this is not what I Corinthians 13 says about prophecy: Verse 8 says: "But where there are prophecies, they will cease;"
And if you want more crazy ones that these, they sure are out there: all the cult groups get their doctrine by stringing verses together.
If you want to convince me of OSAS, you have got to show me a verse in its context that clearly says that once a person is saved they will always be saved.
You will have to be patient!So you jumped in and strung two verses together before I could answer the question you asked - that is OK - because I like to have a lot of fun stringing verses together too . . .
First one:
I Cor. 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
So circumcision or uncircumcision is a "calling" and if the "gifts and calling" of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29 )then we will be circumcised or uncircumcised in heaven as we are here on Earth.
Second one:
And prophecy is a gift - and since the "gifts and calling of God" are irrevocable then that means if you have the gift of prophecy now you will have it for all eternity. !!! ??? but this is not what I Corinthians 13 says about prophecy: Verse 8 says: "But where there are prophecies, they will cease;"
And if you want more crazy ones that these, they sure are out there: all the cult groups get their doctrine by stringing verses together.
If you want to convince me of OSAS, you have got to show me a verse in its context that clearly says that once a person is saved they will always be saved.
If that is true, I suggested two more "truths":
First one:
I Cor. 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
So circumcision or uncircumcision is a "calling" and if the "gifts and calling" of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29 )then we will be circumcised or uncircumcised in heaven as we are here on Earth.
Second one:
And prophecy is a gift - and since the "gifts and calling of God" are irrevocable then that means if you have the gift of prophecy now you will have it for all eternity. !!! ??? but this is not what I Corinthians 13 says about prophecy: Verse 8 says: "But where there are prophecies, they will cease;"
Obviously there are problems with both of these: and like I said in an earlier post there are many more "truths" that we can find by stringing the words of different verses together.
You can see above for the conversation I had with dcontroversal about this: he hasn't answered . . . except for just reiterating that OSAS is true!
This post is not so much about arguing for or against OSAS. My major concern is that our doctrine comes from a clear straight forward understanding of Scripture in the context in which it is written, and does not come from stringing verses together.
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Here is what I believe about forgiveness of sins:
(1) Jesus died for the sins of the entire world - that is - his death makes forgiveness of sins available to all who come to him in faith
(2) When a person comes to Christ in faith all of their past sins are forgiven because of Jesus' shed blood.
(3) When a Christian commits a sin (and Christians do sin sometimes) that sin is forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ. God does not hold the sin of a believer against him: it is immediately and completely covered by the blood of Jesus - I John 1:9 - he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
The basis of forgiveness is always the blood of Jesus Christ. I am not forgiven because I obey, repent, etc. Now, of course, when the believer understands his sin, the normal response is to repent and mourn over that sin.
My belief is different than the typical OSAS understanding because that understanding says all of our sins were past, present, and future were forgiven either when Jesus died (5 point Calvinism) or when we were justified (OSAS only). I find no reference to the forgiveness of future sins in the Bible. My sins are forgiven daily and moment by moment as I commit them, and as long as I am in Christ I have this promise of forgiveness and eternal life.
Hallelujah and praise the Lord for His sacrifice, for His love, and for His mercy!
(1) Jesus died for the sins of the entire world - that is - his death makes forgiveness of sins available to all who come to him in faith
(2) When a person comes to Christ in faith all of their past sins are forgiven because of Jesus' shed blood.
(3) When a Christian commits a sin (and Christians do sin sometimes
) that sin is forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ. God does not hold the sin of a believer against him: it is immediately and completely covered by the blood of Jesus - I John 1:9 - he is faithful and just to forgive us our sinsThe basis of forgiveness is always the blood of Jesus Christ. I am not forgiven because I obey, repent, etc. Now, of course, when the believer understands his sin, the normal response is to repent and mourn over that sin.
My belief is different than the typical OSAS understanding because that understanding says all of our sins were past, present, and future were forgiven either when Jesus died (5 point Calvinism) or when we were justified (OSAS only). I find no reference to the forgiveness of future sins in the Bible. My sins are forgiven daily and moment by moment as I commit them, and as long as I am in Christ I have this promise of forgiveness and eternal life.
Hallelujah and praise the Lord for His sacrifice, for His love, and for His mercy!
He didn't say that you had to do this or that in order for His Grip to be Firm.
Its not your ability to "stay" in Christ that causes your forgiveness or Salvation. You are weak. It is Christ who is Strong. It is Christ who forgives. It is Christ who Saves.
It is not based on the will and strength of the one who comes to Him. It is not even based on your own awareness of the facts, although that should bolster your faith.
Does the Lord save those with less knowledge? Does the Lord save those with more knowledge?
Yep. Isn't it interesting to think about?
The Lord saves dummies and sinners! Thankfully...
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U
Yes there is..... a very big difference!!
But is not simply changing one's mind, the word in Greek would never be understood as something simple...... life preferring vanilla ice cream to chocolate ice cream.
It is a complete movement of the mind and heart at the very seat of the person towards a new belief.
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Couple things Chester:
What about UNCONFESSED sin upon death?
I didn't see if you answered my question yesterday.
If YOU are in Christ and HE is in you, and since HE says He will NEVER leave nor forsake you, how could you eject Him from yourself, even if for a time, BEFORE HE DRAWS YOU BACK, you wandered away? He would still be in you, no?
What about UNCONFESSED sin upon death?
I didn't see if you answered my question yesterday.
If YOU are in Christ and HE is in you, and since HE says He will NEVER leave nor forsake you, how could you eject Him from yourself, even if for a time, BEFORE HE DRAWS YOU BACK, you wandered away? He would still be in you, no?
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U
I do not think he is referring to the person..........."loser' is being used as an adjective to describe "salvation"
They are the ones describing salvation as something that can be lost.... but I keep wondering how does one loose their salvation, does it just fall away one day?
One time I lost my purse that way but I found a solution I let the purse hold me, no worries!!
Some allegory for you PennEd
They are the ones describing salvation as something that can be lost.... but I keep wondering how does one loose their salvation, does it just fall away one day?
One time I lost my purse that way but I found a solution I let the purse hold me, no worries!!
Some allegory for you PennEd
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Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is a calling from God. It is a physical thing that people go through.
You have the meaning of scripture mixed up in your head.
The scripture you quoted merely means that those who are saved, if they are circumcised, they can do the things their family of circumcised people do without retribution from God. And conversely, the uncircumcised who are saved do not need to become circumcised and start doing what the circumcised do.
The gift of prophecy, however, is a gift from God. In that regard it is irrevocable.
But you have to understand what prophecy is in order to understand 1 Corinthians 13:8 or just read a few verses further.
1 Corinthians 13:9-10
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
It is not saying that the gifts of God are being revoked here. It is saying that those gifts are completely redundant in the Presence of God.
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
There is no need to say words that describe what the Lord Jesus will do when the Lord Jesus is right there doing it. It doesn't mean that the person given the gift of prophecy no longer has that gift. Its that that gift pales in comparison to the actual witness of what the Lord Jesus is doing.
You have the meaning of scripture mixed up in your head.
The scripture you quoted merely means that those who are saved, if they are circumcised, they can do the things their family of circumcised people do without retribution from God. And conversely, the uncircumcised who are saved do not need to become circumcised and start doing what the circumcised do.
The gift of prophecy, however, is a gift from God. In that regard it is irrevocable.
But you have to understand what prophecy is in order to understand 1 Corinthians 13:8 or just read a few verses further.
1 Corinthians 13:9-10
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
It is not saying that the gifts of God are being revoked here. It is saying that those gifts are completely redundant in the Presence of God.
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
There is no need to say words that describe what the Lord Jesus will do when the Lord Jesus is right there doing it. It doesn't mean that the person given the gift of prophecy no longer has that gift. Its that that gift pales in comparison to the actual witness of what the Lord Jesus is doing.
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Sorry, Penned, I do think I saw your question yesterday, but at the speed this thread is going, I cannot keep up: I will try to answer the best I can . . .
The way I understand "to confess" (I John 1:9) is that it means literally "to agree with". For the believer this is true of his life - he is agreeing with God - that is - he believes - has faith in Jesus Christ. True confession is not the literal words I say - confession is a heart issue. So in my understanding a believer does not die with unconfessed sin - because in his heart he believes what God says about sin - that is confession.
Your last question: "If YOU are in Christ and HE is in you, and since HE says He will NEVER leave nor forsake you, how could you eject Him from yourself, even if for a time, BEFORE HE DRAWS YOU BACK, you wandered away? He would still be in you, no?"
The first part - Yes, the believer is in Christ and He is in us (John 14)
Next - the promise that he will never leave nor forsake (Hebrews 13:5; Matt. 28:20)
Wonderful truths and wonderful promises for the believer! Amen
Then you use the truths from those verse to ask a rhetorical question mixed with a few phrases or ideas from other verses ("draw you back"). What I am saying is that your question is really unclear, and seems based on a mixture of different verses from different contexts. Therefore is no way I see to give a clear Biblical answer to it because its implications are based on human reasoning, not on clear Biblical text. (My opinion, of course - - and you are welcome to have your own opinion)
If OSAS was true, there is surely one text somewhere that clearly states it . . . ?????
The way I understand "to confess" (I John 1:9) is that it means literally "to agree with". For the believer this is true of his life - he is agreeing with God - that is - he believes - has faith in Jesus Christ. True confession is not the literal words I say - confession is a heart issue. So in my understanding a believer does not die with unconfessed sin - because in his heart he believes what God says about sin - that is confession.
Your last question: "If YOU are in Christ and HE is in you, and since HE says He will NEVER leave nor forsake you, how could you eject Him from yourself, even if for a time, BEFORE HE DRAWS YOU BACK, you wandered away? He would still be in you, no?"
The first part - Yes, the believer is in Christ and He is in us (John 14)
Next - the promise that he will never leave nor forsake (Hebrews 13:5; Matt. 28:20)
Wonderful truths and wonderful promises for the believer! Amen
Then you use the truths from those verse to ask a rhetorical question mixed with a few phrases or ideas from other verses ("draw you back"). What I am saying is that your question is really unclear, and seems based on a mixture of different verses from different contexts. Therefore is no way I see to give a clear Biblical answer to it because its implications are based on human reasoning, not on clear Biblical text. (My opinion, of course -
- and you are welcome to have your own opinion)If OSAS was true, there is surely one text somewhere that clearly states it . . . ?????
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Sorry, Penned, I do think I saw your question yesterday, but at the speed this thread is going, I cannot keep up: I will try to answer the best I can . . .
The way I understand "to confess" (I John 1:9) is that it means literally "to agree with". For the believer this is true of his life - he is agreeing with God - that is - he believes - has faith in Jesus Christ. True confession is not the literal words I say - confession is a heart issue. So in my understanding a believer does not die with unconfessed sin - because in his heart he believes what God says about sin - that is confession.
Your last question: "If YOU are in Christ and HE is in you, and since HE says He will NEVER leave nor forsake you, how could you eject Him from yourself, even if for a time, BEFORE HE DRAWS YOU BACK, you wandered away? He would still be in you, no?"
The first part - Yes, the believer is in Christ and He is in us (John 14)
Next - the promise that he will never leave nor forsake (Hebrews 13:5; Matt. 28:20)
Wonderful truths and wonderful promises for the believer! Amen
Then you use the truths from those verse to ask a rhetorical question mixed with a few phrases or ideas from other verses ("draw you back"). What I am saying is that your question is really unclear, and seems based on a mixture of different verses from different contexts. Therefore is no way I see to give a clear Biblical answer to it because its implications are based on human reasoning, not on clear Biblical text. (My opinion, of course - - and you are welcome to have your own opinion)
If OSAS was true, there is surely one text somewhere that clearly states it . . . ?????
The way I understand "to confess" (I John 1:9) is that it means literally "to agree with". For the believer this is true of his life - he is agreeing with God - that is - he believes - has faith in Jesus Christ. True confession is not the literal words I say - confession is a heart issue. So in my understanding a believer does not die with unconfessed sin - because in his heart he believes what God says about sin - that is confession.
Your last question: "If YOU are in Christ and HE is in you, and since HE says He will NEVER leave nor forsake you, how could you eject Him from yourself, even if for a time, BEFORE HE DRAWS YOU BACK, you wandered away? He would still be in you, no?"
The first part - Yes, the believer is in Christ and He is in us (John 14)
Next - the promise that he will never leave nor forsake (Hebrews 13:5; Matt. 28:20)
Wonderful truths and wonderful promises for the believer! Amen
Then you use the truths from those verse to ask a rhetorical question mixed with a few phrases or ideas from other verses ("draw you back"). What I am saying is that your question is really unclear, and seems based on a mixture of different verses from different contexts. Therefore is no way I see to give a clear Biblical answer to it because its implications are based on human reasoning, not on clear Biblical text. (My opinion, of course -
- and you are welcome to have your own opinion)If OSAS was true, there is surely one text somewhere that clearly states it . . . ?????
There are more, but why doesn't THIS passage serve to answer your long sought after question:
Romans 8:38-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other CREATED THING, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Aren't YOU a created thing?
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