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Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
the prediction of 70AD is in the prophecy, but not included in the 70 weeks.
it's just in there saying how it ends.
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
the prediction of 70AD is in the prophecy, but not included in the 70 weeks.
it's just in there saying how it ends.
R
well you will probably disagree...but i don't think that daniel 9 and matthew 24 are necessarily about the same thing...jesus may have just been making an allusion to daniel without meaning that he was actually tying the prophecy of daniel into his explanation of the end time...
one candidate for a more literal fulfillment of daniel's prophecies is the desecration of the temple by antiochus iv followed by the maccabean revolt and rededication of the temple...
one candidate for a more literal fulfillment of daniel's prophecies is the desecration of the temple by antiochus iv followed by the maccabean revolt and rededication of the temple...
E
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
The death of Christ happened AFTER the 62 week. which was literally fulfilled the week before when he entered jerusalem on a donkey. Thus according to the prophesy, 69 weeks are complete at this time.
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
since the 69th seven, or week of sevens or years of sevens was already fulfilled before the death of Christ. we already have a gap. The temple and city was not destroyed within 7 years of Jesus death, thus we already have a final week which is not a literal week, or a gap. It must be one or the other. Since the first 69 weeks were literally fulfilled to the day, why make the final week not a literal week>?
The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
A time period which is undetermined. It states the temple and city will lie desolate until the end, during this time, many wars will be fought and the city will lie desolate. Again, you either have a gap. or all these things must have been fulfilled within 7 years of Christ death, which did not occure
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
In chronological order. this even takes place AFTER the city and temple is destroyed, and after the war desolations are determined. Again, must be a huge gap. because has not happened even until today.
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
1. He is not Christ. He is the one who confirms a covenant for one week AFTER all the events take place
2. Happens in the middle of the one week covenant confirmed by the prince who is to come. Who comes from the people who destroyed rome.
3. In order for this to happen. A temple must be rebuilt. and Isreal must continue in the sin of trying to live by Law, meaning they still reject Christ.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
The consumation poured out on the desolate speaks of the great day of Gods wrath against evil, and against the world. The things spoken of in Revelation (behold has come the day of Gods wrath and who is able to withstand it) This ends with the return of Christ.
Again, must be a huge gap. none of this has happened even up until today.
The death of Christ happened AFTER the 62 week. which was literally fulfilled the week before when he entered jerusalem on a donkey. Thus according to the prophesy, 69 weeks are complete at this time.
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
since the 69th seven, or week of sevens or years of sevens was already fulfilled before the death of Christ. we already have a gap. The temple and city was not destroyed within 7 years of Jesus death, thus we already have a final week which is not a literal week, or a gap. It must be one or the other. Since the first 69 weeks were literally fulfilled to the day, why make the final week not a literal week>?
The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
A time period which is undetermined. It states the temple and city will lie desolate until the end, during this time, many wars will be fought and the city will lie desolate. Again, you either have a gap. or all these things must have been fulfilled within 7 years of Christ death, which did not occure
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
In chronological order. this even takes place AFTER the city and temple is destroyed, and after the war desolations are determined. Again, must be a huge gap. because has not happened even until today.
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
1. He is not Christ. He is the one who confirms a covenant for one week AFTER all the events take place
2. Happens in the middle of the one week covenant confirmed by the prince who is to come. Who comes from the people who destroyed rome.
3. In order for this to happen. A temple must be rebuilt. and Isreal must continue in the sin of trying to live by Law, meaning they still reject Christ.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
The consumation poured out on the desolate speaks of the great day of Gods wrath against evil, and against the world. The things spoken of in Revelation (behold has come the day of Gods wrath and who is able to withstand it) This ends with the return of Christ.
Again, must be a huge gap. none of this has happened even up until today.
E
Read on. The beast goes after the woman. Who destroys the beast, and how does he destroy the beast?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[SUP][h][/SUP] [SUP]18 [/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[SUP][i][/SUP] and slave, both small and great.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
This speaks of the beast who goes after the woman. If your saying this happened in 70 AD. when did this happen?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[SUP][h][/SUP] [SUP]18 [/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[SUP][i][/SUP] and slave, both small and great.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
This speaks of the beast who goes after the woman. If your saying this happened in 70 AD. when did this happen?
E
1. Yes, Antiochus was the little horn of the third empire, and it was prophesied he would do this. But we are told of anothe rlittle horn which would come from the reformed roman empire. this is the one who commits the abomination
2. Jesus said, when you see the abomination SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL standing in the holy place. He refered the very abomination Daniel spoke of. Not one like it.
He refered specifically to the one spoken of by daniel. so yes, we would disagree. I can not take jesus to mean any other abomination than the one spoken of in Daniel 9.
E
I would disagree. the 70th week ends when the consumation which is determined is poured out on the desolate. Then as Paul says, the time of the gentile is fulfilled. And ALL Isreal will be saved. Thus the city, the tmple and people are fully restored. and the "end of sin" is complete.
Daniel 9 is not about God removing the condemnation of sin to save mankind, It speaks about the nation of Isreal repenting of her sin and following the true god of heaven.
Daniel was not praying for God to save them eternally, His prayer was for his city and his people laying desolate and in sin. The answer then must be interpreted in this context.
Daniel 9 is not about God removing the condemnation of sin to save mankind, It speaks about the nation of Isreal repenting of her sin and following the true god of heaven.
Daniel was not praying for God to save them eternally, His prayer was for his city and his people laying desolate and in sin. The answer then must be interpreted in this context.
R
the beasts appear after the woman escapes and satan goes off to make war on the rest of her offspring...the gentile churches...but the vision ends before the beasts are actually destroyed...meaning they may exist for a very long time...from AD 70 until now and beyond...
this is possible if their forty-two weeks of authority have not actually happened yet...which may be the case since there is nothing to say that they take authority immediately after satan summons them up...
this is possible if their forty-two weeks of authority have not actually happened yet...which may be the case since there is nothing to say that they take authority immediately after satan summons them up...
E
Not to mention the "end of sin" which Daniel was spoken of was to happen after the 70th week. Not after the 69th week. And again, History shows the 69th week ended on the week Jesus entered jerusalem. Basically only 7 literal days occured between this and the death of Christ. Jesus mentioned this when he told the people, if you only knew what day this was (and they should have known by the calculations of the 69 weeks) but now it was hidden from them.
if Jesus was the one who put and end of sin, he did it 7 years to early
if Jesus was the one who put and end of sin, he did it 7 years to early
E
I don;t see this,, the beast is one man, And satan empowers him. Not many men.
Well he must have some sort of authority to be able to confirm a covenant for 7 years.
in daniels vision. this beast is a little horn which comes out of a ten king confederation of the final beast. He then kills three of the kings, and the rest give their authority to him. It is him who speaks pompos words against the most high and goes after his people. And is destroyed by Christ at the end.
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R
here i am certain that the beast is not a person... as you know the beasts in daniel represent empires...and so i think it is safe to conclude that the first beast in revelation is an empire too...
also i would go so far as to say that the first beast in revelation is most likely the same as the fourth beast in daniel...killed and brought back to life...rome fallen and reconstituted...
also i would go so far as to say that the first beast in revelation is most likely the same as the fourth beast in daniel...killed and brought back to life...rome fallen and reconstituted...
Jesus began His public Ministry at the beginning of the 70th week.
Jesus was cut off, killed, in the Middle of the 70th week, 3 1/2 years after it began.
He had confirmed the Covenant with many.
His death accomplished all the things Daniel was told would be done.
after that:
The Lord's Resurrection
Ascension
Pentecost
Stephen Stoned
Church Scattered
Paul's Conversion
Peter preaches to Cornelius
it looks like Peter and Cornelius (gentiles) could mark the end of the 70th week (?) - end of Promises especially for Israel.
or Paul's Conversion and Jesus' announcement that Paul would go to the gentiles....
in any case.
Daniel 9 is all about the promises made to daniel's people and jerusalem.
Jesus fulfilled all of it.
nearly 40 years (probation) later Titus arrived.
Jesus was cut off, killed, in the Middle of the 70th week, 3 1/2 years after it began.
He had confirmed the Covenant with many.
His death accomplished all the things Daniel was told would be done.
after that:
The Lord's Resurrection
Ascension
Pentecost
Stephen Stoned
Church Scattered
Paul's Conversion
Peter preaches to Cornelius
it looks like Peter and Cornelius (gentiles) could mark the end of the 70th week (?) - end of Promises especially for Israel.
or Paul's Conversion and Jesus' announcement that Paul would go to the gentiles....
in any case.
Daniel 9 is all about the promises made to daniel's people and jerusalem.
Jesus fulfilled all of it.
nearly 40 years (probation) later Titus arrived.
E
Does not fit the timline.
Jesus could not start at the begining of the 70th week. then be cut off at the end of the 69th week. Does not add up.
second. If we take the correct date of the command to restore the city (not the temple as many like to use) until the week Jesus enters jersualem we have exactly 69 weeks of years. Jesus had already been in his ministry for three years at this time. This he would have started his minstry a little after the middle of the 69th week. not the start of the 70th week.
Jesus could not start at the begining of the 70th week. then be cut off at the end of the 69th week. Does not add up.
second. If we take the correct date of the command to restore the city (not the temple as many like to use) until the week Jesus enters jersualem we have exactly 69 weeks of years. Jesus had already been in his ministry for three years at this time. This he would have started his minstry a little after the middle of the 69th week. not the start of the 70th week.
R
ok so here is my attempt at understanding the seventy weeks of daniel...i will start with week sixty-nine since that seems to be the easiest to establish the correct method with...
from the order to rebuild jerusalem until messiah comes there are sixty-nine 'weeks'...
the order to rebuild jerusalem is apparently the rebuilding of jerusalem's walls under nehemiah...that would have been 444 BC...
sixty-nine 'weeks' times seven years is 483 years...evidently those are hebrew ceremonial years of 360 days...otherwise nothing in the prophecy works at all... so you multiply 483 years times 360 days and you get 173,880 actual days...and then you divide by 365.25 days to get literal 'solar' years...which gives you about 476 years...
476 years after 444 BC is AD 33 which evidently is when jesus arrived in jerusalem the week of his crucifixion...so this method of calculating seems to work...
but when you use that method of calculating for the seventieth week...without assuming any gaps...you get AD 40...when nothing that is supposed to happen in the seventieth week seems to have happened...or anything else of any apparent prophetic significance for that matter...
the part about the middle of the week is also confusing... if it means the middle of week sixty-nine...then that would be around AD 29... if it means the middle of week seventy...that would be around AD 36... nothing seems to have happened around either of those years that would fit what the prophecy says about the middle of the week...or at least not without violating the statement of messiah's coming at the end of the sixty-nine week...
from the order to rebuild jerusalem until messiah comes there are sixty-nine 'weeks'...
the order to rebuild jerusalem is apparently the rebuilding of jerusalem's walls under nehemiah...that would have been 444 BC...
sixty-nine 'weeks' times seven years is 483 years...evidently those are hebrew ceremonial years of 360 days...otherwise nothing in the prophecy works at all... so you multiply 483 years times 360 days and you get 173,880 actual days...and then you divide by 365.25 days to get literal 'solar' years...which gives you about 476 years...
476 years after 444 BC is AD 33 which evidently is when jesus arrived in jerusalem the week of his crucifixion...so this method of calculating seems to work...
but when you use that method of calculating for the seventieth week...without assuming any gaps...you get AD 40...when nothing that is supposed to happen in the seventieth week seems to have happened...or anything else of any apparent prophetic significance for that matter...
the part about the middle of the week is also confusing... if it means the middle of week sixty-nine...then that would be around AD 29... if it means the middle of week seventy...that would be around AD 36... nothing seems to have happened around either of those years that would fit what the prophecy says about the middle of the week...or at least not without violating the statement of messiah's coming at the end of the sixty-nine week...
Jesus started His Ministry to Israel in the 70th week.
He was killed half way through - the Middle.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city:
He accomplished:
- to finish the transgression
- to make an end of sins
- to make reconciliation for iniquity
- to bring in everlasting righteousness
- seal up the vision and prophecy
- and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
^ 1Still has a good study on this part
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: < Jesus
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; < Titus and Romans soldiers
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. < desolation and wars
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: < Jesus
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, < Jesus
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, < Jesus decreed/determined this sitting overlooking Jerusalem
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. < 70AD foretold. not included in the 70 weeks.
He was killed half way through - the Middle.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city:
He accomplished:
- to finish the transgression
- to make an end of sins
- to make reconciliation for iniquity
- to bring in everlasting righteousness
- seal up the vision and prophecy
- and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
^ 1Still has a good study on this part
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: < Jesus
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; < Titus and Romans soldiers
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. < desolation and wars
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: < Jesus
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, < Jesus
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, < Jesus decreed/determined this sitting overlooking Jerusalem
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. < 70AD foretold. not included in the 70 weeks.