Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

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Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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So you count baptism as works of rom 4?
You cannot see that believing is just the same as baptism.
Believing..
Messenger preach the gospel
Your part to believe...
God did the works..

Baptism
Baptizer to preach death and resurrection ( doing physical baptism)
Your part to (just dunk in water) you consider that as works?
God did the works...
Believing is a change of mind, its like a child stretching forth his hand to receive the gift that his father is giving to him.

Baptism is like a child having to clean himself up, before he can receive the gift
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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Believing is a change of mind, its like a child stretching forth his hand to receive the gift that his father is giving to him.

Baptism is like a child having to clean himself up, before he can receive the gift
The first paragraph may be consider right...
The 2nd is off.
It is not the child who clean himself..but rather the child is allowing the Father to clean him.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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The first paragraph may be consider right...
The 2nd is off.
It is not the child who clean himself..but rather the child is allowing the Father to clean him.
But that happened automatically when the child believes, its not a separate requirement to be dunked in water
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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But that happened automatically when the child believes, its not a separate requirement to be dunked in water
Jesus got baptized. And what happened at his baptism???

Jesus said.
Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mat 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

are baptize in the name of ordinary name????
Baptism is in the name of the Lord...
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,523
954
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Jesus got baptized. And what happened at his baptism???

Jesus said.
Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mat 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

are baptize in the name of ordinary name????
Baptism is in the name of the Lord...
water baptism was required for all Jews if they are to spread the good news to the gentiles once the nation acknowledged their messiah
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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water baptism was required for all Jews if they are to spread the good news to the gentiles once the nation acknowledged their messiah
Why is it required for the Jews and not for the gentiles?
When Jesus said teach ALL NATIONS and baptizing THEM.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Why is it required for the Jews and not for the gentiles?
When Jesus said teach ALL NATIONS and baptizing THEM.
Because the Jewish nation has rejected their messiah for the final time when Stephen was stoned.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Your resources are not reliable. The Montanists were a heretical cult. Plus you add to scripture making it say what it does not. If you had proof of apostolic signs and wonders, you might prove your point. But even then, God furnished false prophets in the OT with miracles to test people.
Do you have any evidence that Ireneaus was a Montanist? The commentaries on his writings interpret some of his comments as directed toward the Montanists. What about Justin Martyr? Eusebius quotes a number of critics of Montanus who acknowledged the gift of prophecy as a genuine gift for the church, but did not accept Montanus.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,429
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Jesus got baptized. And what happened at his baptism???

Jesus said.
Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mat 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

are baptize in the name of ordinary name????
Baptism is in the name of the Lord...
This is not water baptism, Mat 28:19. What you have in the context of the verse is an immersion in the doctrine of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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The Jews were supposed to be priests spreading the message to all Gentile nations once the nation accept their Messiah. Zechariah 8:20-23
In the song of Moses, Moses prophesied, "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are not people and by a foolish nation I will anger you." Paul interpreted this to refer to what was happening in his own day.

Read Romans 10-11. Israel was, in part, blinded. Most of the nation did not accept Jesus. The unbelievers are compared to natural branches that were broken off of an olive tree, while the Gentiles that believed are compared to branches that are grafted in. Paul warns that the Gentile branches should not boast that the other branches 'were broken off that we may be grafted in.' But God is able to graft them in again. The blindness on part of Israel (those among them who do not believe) continues until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And so all Israel shall be saved. Concerning the Gospel, Paul writes, they are enemies for your sakes', but beloved for the sakes of the fathers. (Many of the persecutors of Christians were Jews at that time.)

Through their unbelief, the Gospel was given to the Gentiles. God used the Gentile converts to the Messiah to provoke them to jealousy. Through our mercy, they are to obtain mercy.

So you should not interpret the writings of Zechariah as unfulfilled prophecy based on the idea that God did not know that Israel would reject the Messiah. We see in the song of Moses, written before Zechariah, that God had this plan to provoke Israel to jealousy.

Nor should you argue that God's plan to save Israel ended with the stoning of Stephen. Paul's ministry to the Gentiles and writing of Romans was after he held the coats of those who stoned Stephen. And Romans 11 predicts the future salvation of Israel through our Lord.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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This is not water baptism, Mat 28:19. What you have in the context of the verse is an immersion in the doctrine of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
What? Not water baptism...
You should learn whether the statement is poetic or literal...
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
so did we decide yet? for the 1,000,103th time in this forum?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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Do you have any evidence that Ireneaus was a Montanist? The commentaries on his writings interpret some of his comments as directed toward the Montanists. What about Justin Martyr? Eusebius quotes a number of critics of Montanus who acknowledged the gift of prophecy as a genuine gift for the church, but did not accept Montanus.
Tertullian was a Montanist. The gifts started disappearing in the epistles with Paul's sick helpers.
 

Blade

Active member
Nov 19, 2019
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I love these kind of posts :) When Jesus was here " And these signs shall follow them that believe. In my name they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues ". I like "them that believe". I take that as.. them as in anyone and all that believe. Then "new tongues"..hmm that sounds like something else.

We read in Luke "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall the Father from heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him". Seems there were more then 11 waiting after Jesus left. In fact there was 120. No one touched them.. laid hands on them. Nope. I watched a few years ago this preacher known I believe, talk about how this "baptism of the holy Spirit" was dead, does not happen any more.

Yet what happen to me was exactly what I read in the word. "do you want the holy spirit?" I said yes. I am asking. They laid hands on me then stopped and said you got it. I felt nothing. No one said a word. I got up.. went to sit down and tongues just came out. I did in fact receive power after "But you shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you ". This is what GOD says. So.. I can believe what MAN says about Gods word or I take HIS word for it. He can't lie.. Jesus is alive and real. He really talks.. I just simply believe...

You know...if we doubt.. we need to know that we won't receive anything from Him. LOL I can't pray Father if I am wrong change me.. it already happened PRAISE GOD! The more I pray in the spirit.. just.. lack of words.. WOW! Awesome. I can not think.. what this life this walk would be with out it. So many times I don't know how to pray.. I pray in the spirit.... if you don't believe.. you love JESUS amen!
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,523
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In the song of Moses, Moses prophesied, "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are not people and by a foolish nation I will anger you." Paul interpreted this to refer to what was happening in his own day.

Read Romans 10-11. Israel was, in part, blinded. Most of the nation did not accept Jesus. The unbelievers are compared to natural branches that were broken off of an olive tree, while the Gentiles that believed are compared to branches that are grafted in. Paul warns that the Gentile branches should not boast that the other branches 'were broken off that we may be grafted in.' But God is able to graft them in again. The blindness on part of Israel (those among them who do not believe) continues until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And so all Israel shall be saved. Concerning the Gospel, Paul writes, they are enemies for your sakes', but beloved for the sakes of the fathers. (Many of the persecutors of Christians were Jews at that time.)

Through their unbelief, the Gospel was given to the Gentiles. God used the Gentile converts to the Messiah to provoke them to jealousy. Through our mercy, they are to obtain mercy.

So you should not interpret the writings of Zechariah as unfulfilled prophecy based on the idea that God did not know that Israel would reject the Messiah. We see in the song of Moses, written before Zechariah, that God had this plan to provoke Israel to jealousy.

Nor should you argue that God's plan to save Israel ended with the stoning of Stephen. Paul's ministry to the Gentiles and writing of Romans was after he held the coats of those who stoned Stephen. And Romans 11 predicts the future salvation of Israel through our Lord.
God's plan did not end, I was not arguing that. It has been postponed until the church is raptured, as you correctly quoted Romans 9-11. God knew about the rejection of course, but he had to give the Jewish nation a legitimate choice and could only reveal his hidden plan to save the Gentiles after the rejection.

Zechariah's prophecy will be fulfilled during the 1000 year Millennial rule. There will be new people born on this earth during that period of time which will need to be reached too.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Your resources are not reliable. The Montanists were a heretical cult. Plus you add to scripture making it say what it does not. If you had proof of apostolic signs and wonders, you might prove your point. But even then, God furnished false prophets in the OT with miracles to test people.
Tertullian was a Montanist.
Ireneaus wasn't. Eusebius' wasn't. The critics of Montanus Eusebius' quotes who affirmed the gift of prophecy for the church were not. I know of no evidence that either Justin Martyr or Hermas were Montanists or Gregory of Armenia or Patrick of Ireland or Martin of Tours.


The gifts started disappearing in the epistles with Paul's sick helpers.
The Bible does not teach this. You just make up a doctrine and read it into the Bible. Paul had an infirmity much earlier, probably around the beginning of Acts 14, and definitely by Acts 16. The Galatians would have given him their eyes if they could have. He went on to do great miracles as God worked through him in Ephesus. All the sick who were brought to him on the island of Malta were healed late in the book of Acts.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Just a couple of St. Patrick's experiences with visions from his own writings. Numerous healings and even resurrections were done through him according to other writers.

The following is quoted from Confessio
https://www.confessio.ie/etexts/confessio_english#
16
After I arrived in Ireland, I tended sheep every day, and I prayed frequently during the day. More and more the love of God increased, and my sense of awe before God. Faith grew, and my spirit was moved, so that in one day I would pray up to one hundred times, and at night perhaps the same. I even remained in the woods and on the mountain, and I would rise to pray before dawn in snow and ice and rain. I never felt the worse for it, and I never felt lazy – as I realise now, the spirit was burning in me at that time.

17
It was there one night in my sleep that I heard a voice saying to me: “You have fasted well. Very soon you will return to your native country.” Again after a short while, I heard a someone saying to me: “Look – your ship is ready.” It was not nearby, but a good two hundred miles away. I had never been to the place, nor did I know anyone there. So I ran away then, and left the man with whom I had been for six years. It was in the strength of God that I went – God who turned the direction of my life to good; I feared nothing while I was on the journey to that ship.
...

23
A few years later I was again with my parents in Britain. They welcomed me as a son, and they pleaded with me that, after all the many tribulations I had undergone, I should never leave them again. It was while I was there that I saw, in a vision in the night, a man[Nota] whose name was Victoricus coming as it were from Ireland with so many letters they could not be counted. He gave me one of these, and I read the beginning of the letter, the voice of the Irish people. While I was reading out the beginning of the letter, I thought I heard at that moment the voice of those who were beside the wood of Voclut, near the western sea[Nota]. They called out as it were with one voice: “We beg you, holy boy, to come and walk again among us.” This touched my heart deeply, and I could not read any further; I woke up then. Thanks be to God, after many years the Lord granted them what they were calling for.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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Ireneaus wasn't. Eusebius' wasn't. The critics of Montanus Eusebius' quotes who affirmed the gift of prophecy for the church were not. I know of no evidence that either Justin Martyr or Hermas were Montanists or Gregory of Armenia or Patrick of Ireland or Martin of Tours.


The Bible does not teach this. You just make up a doctrine and read it into the Bible. Paul had an infirmity much earlier, probably around the beginning of Acts 14, and definitely by Acts 16. The Galatians would have given him their eyes if they could have. He went on to do great miracles as God worked through him in Ephesus. All the sick who were brought to him on the island of Malta were healed late in the book of Acts.
You have too many obstacles to overcome in order to prove your position. Show one Acts level miracle today from the zillions of cell phone cameras and that will do a lot. But you haven't anything to work with.