Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

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presidente

Senior Member
#701
May 29, 2013
9,160
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#701
Dave-L said:
You have too many obstacles to overcome in order to prove your position. Show one Acts level miracle today from the zillions of cell phone cameras and that will do a lot. But you haven't anything to work with.
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You want me to do your work on you. 'Zillion' is not a real number, but there may be hundreds or thousands of healing videos on YouTube. Search on your own. Interview people to verify the information. It's not like it is not out there. You just haven't done the research.

I have shown you what the Bible teaches. If you will not believe it, that is on you.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#702
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#702
presidente said:
You want me to do your work on you. 'Zillion' is not a real number, but there may be hundreds or thousands of healing videos on YouTube. Search on your own. Interview people to verify the information. It's not like it is not out there. You just haven't done the research.

I have shown you what the Bible teaches. If you will not believe it, that is on you.
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The bible does not teach what you think it does. If it did Pentecostals would make headline news every night performing the miracles they claim to have...... with zero evidence.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#703
May 29, 2013
9,160
1,787
113
#703
Dave-L said:
The bible does not teach what you think it does. If it did Pentecostals would make headline news every night performing the miracles they claim to have...... with zero evidence.
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Not if the news people have your unbelieving mentality when it comes to miracles.

Again, if the Spirit chose to gift an individual to do a miracle every 100 years, that still does not detract from His right or power to enable individuals to perform miracles.

Your case has been thoroughly debunked by scripture.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#704
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#704
presidente said:
Not if the news people have your unbelieving mentality when it comes to miracles.

Again, if the Spirit chose to gift an individual to do a miracle every 100 years, that still does not detract from His right or power to enable individuals to perform miracles.

Your case has been thoroughly debunked by scripture.
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Not in the least. It only proves you are wrong not having any physical proof of miracles meant to be seen.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#706
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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113
#706
presidente said:
If you saw the sign you demand, would you believe?
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It would attract a bumper crop of false believers to the Pentecostal Churches who believe by sight and not by faith. Jesus distanced himself from these.
“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” John 2:23–25 (KJV 1900)
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#707
May 29, 2013
9,160
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#707
Dave-L said:
It would attract a bumper crop of false believers to the Pentecostal Churches who believe by sight and not by faith. Jesus distanced himself from these.
“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” John 2:23–25 (KJV 1900)
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The Bible also gives accounts of people seeing miracles and believing, like the Samritans in Acts 8 or Sergius Paulus.

Realistically, though, if you went on YouTube and saw blind eyes or a wound healed in the name of Jesus, would you conclude that it was fake or from the wrong source?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#708
Jan 17, 2020
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#708
presidente said:
The Bible also gives accounts of people seeing miracles and believing, like the Samritans in Acts 8 or Sergius Paulus.

Realistically, though, if you went on YouTube and saw blind eyes or a wound healed in the name of Jesus, would you conclude that it was fake or from the wrong source?
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Did the Samarians believe in faith or by sight? Why did the Apostles need to visit them?
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#709
May 29, 2013
9,160
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#709
Dave-L said:
Did the Samarians believe in faith or by sight?
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Faith in their faith? They believed the gospel.


Why did the Apostles need to visit them?
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The apostles laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. Philip was an evangelist who did miracles, preached, and baptized, and left. He left the follow-up to others.

But later a spiritual gift was imparted through the gift of prophecy accompanied by the laying on of hands of the elders. Some people were filled with the Spirit in Acts without the laying on of hands. And the Lord raised up someone as an apostle without the laying on of hands of the previous apostles.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#710
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#710
presidente said:
Faith in their faith? They believed the gospel.




The apostles laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. Philip was an evangelist who did miracles, preached, and baptized, and left. He left the follow-up to others.

But later a spiritual gift was imparted through the gift of prophecy accompanied by the laying on of hands of the elders. Some people were filled with the Spirit in Acts without the laying on of hands. And the Lord raised up someone as an apostle without the laying on of hands of the previous apostles.
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It says they believe because of the miracles.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#711
May 23, 2012
13,008
4,317
113
#711
Aerials1978 said:
That’s not what I said. Context matters not assumptions.
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That is true and so does the question proposed matter also.

Obeying Jesus and the instructs of the Apostles matter? When Jesus said baptize and tech those the word of God? Or the Holy Spirit who spoke through Peter said Believe and be Baptized everyone of you? No where did Peter say the word mandatory, required or you are not saved if you are not baptized.

Knowing this, How is an act of disobedience displaying one is saved when you will not do as the Lord said? It is really that simple.
The following hypotheticals below of the word of God and the Lord should not us to use as an excuse not to be baptized or formulate a false narrative not to be baptized. The following are false reasoning not to be baptized:



  1. The thief on the cross was not baptized
Were you crucified on the cross next to Jesus 2000 years ago? the context of that thief is not a normative but descriptive and a fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy found in the Old Testament as PS 22.

2. What if one got saved and did not have time to be baptized?
They were saved and did not have time to be baptized. That is the answer I'm sure God is fully aware of this. Or maybe HE did not support the doctrine of "Baptized to be saved".

3. You are suggesting salvation is a thing of works.

Wrong! that is false narrative. I am saying it is an act of disobedience when you know that you are to be baptized as we are told to by Jesus as Jesus was, The Apostles, the early Church and down through the history of the Christin church.


4. If you are not baptized you are not saved ?

Please refer to answer #2

Many of those here who argue about salvation and not having to be baptized, are and were Baptized. That makes them hypocrites and teaching new believers to disobey the word of The Lord. That is the greatest error one can do,

Pride and foolishness and those who wish to control and cause condemnation to those who have been saved.

If you Profess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have received an opportunity to be baptized and you did not do so because you were told it is not necessary for salvation BY some Buffoon who is teaching you to disobey the Word Of the Lord Jesus. That is not a good testimony of one who says they are saved. Are you better than your Lord? Then stop playing games of pride and follow the Lord in Obedience and be baptized everyone of you. Being Baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#712
Dec 10, 2019
1,707
987
113
#712
CS1 said:
That is true and so does the question proposed matter also.

Obeying Jesus and the instructs of the Apostles matter? When Jesus said baptize and tech those the word of God? Or the Holy Spirit who spoke through Peter said Believe and be Baptized everyone of you? No where did Peter say the word mandatory, required or you are not saved if you are not baptized.

Knowing this, How is an act of disobedience displaying one is saved when you will not do as the Lord said? It is really that simple.
The following hypotheticals below of the word of God and the Lord should not us to use as an excuse not to be baptized or formulate a false narrative not to be baptized. The following are false reasoning not to be baptized:



  1. The thief on the cross was not baptized
Were you crucified on the cross next to Jesus 2000 years ago? the context of that thief is not a normative but descriptive and a fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy found in the Old Testament as PS 22.

2. What if one got saved and did not have time to be baptized?
They were saved and did not have time to be baptized. That is the answer I'm sure God is fully aware of this. Or maybe HE did not support the doctrine of "Baptized to be saved".

3. You are suggesting salvation is a thing of works.

Wrong! that is false narrative. I am saying it is an act of disobedience when you know that you are to be baptized as we are told to by Jesus as Jesus was, The Apostles, the early Church and down through the history of the Christin church.


4. If you are not baptized you are not saved ?

Please refer to answer #2

Many of those here who argue about salvation and not having to be baptized, are and were Baptized. That makes them hypocrites and teaching new believers to disobey the word of The Lord. That is the greatest error one can do,

Pride and foolishness and those who wish to control and cause condemnation to those who have been saved.

If you Profess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have received an opportunity to be baptized and you did not do so because you were told it is not necessary for salvation BY some Buffoon who is teaching you to disobey the Word Of the Lord Jesus. That is not a good testimony of one who says they are saved. Are you better than your Lord? Then stop playing games of pride and follow the Lord in Obedience and be baptized everyone of you. Being Baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
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Even though this is now an older post, I don’t mind answering. It’s not my position that one should forgo baptism. I’m saying for true salvation baptism is not a part of that process .
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast
Ephesians 2:8-9

Also, I don’t know if you were directing that last paragraph at me or not.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#713
May 23, 2012
13,008
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#713
Aerials1978 said:
Even though this is now an older post, I don’t mind answering. It’s not my position that one should forgo baptism. I’m saying for true salvation baptism is not a part of that process .
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast
Ephesians 2:8-9

Also, I don’t know if you were directing that last paragraph at me or not.
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LOL come on there are plenty of old post that have comeback for those who have posted :)

This this is true baptism does not save us it is the act by one who is saved. IF one says to a new believer You need to be baptized as the Lord said to do then in the same breath say " but it is not needed for salvation" what message is one sending really? if one does not support the choice not to be baptized but yet is not saying you have to be baptized because Jesus said to, what are we teaching? Either we are or we are not?
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#714
Dec 10, 2019
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#714
CS1 said:
LOL come on there are plenty of old post that have comeback for those who have posted :)

This this is true baptism does not save us it is the act by one who is saved. IF one says to a new believer You need to be baptized as the Lord said to do then in the same breath say " but it is not needed for salvation" what message is one sending really? if one does not support the choice not to be baptized but yet is not saying you have to be baptized because Jesus said to, what are we teaching? Either we are or we are not?
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I would say for a new believer they need to know where their salvation comes from. They should be baptized if they have the opportunity to do so.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#715
May 23, 2012
13,008
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#715
Aerials1978 said:
I would say for a new believer they need to know where their salvation comes from. They should be baptized if they have the opportunity to do so.
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If they are believer, new or old what made them believer to begin with? Faith in Christ alone. After they have believed they need to be baptized in obedience to the one they confess they believed in.
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#716
Jun 10, 2019
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#716
Interesting topic so why did the disciples continue to baptize yet Jesus did not and I assume did not baptize anyone in water I don’t think is there any scripture that mentions that.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#717
May 23, 2012
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#717
JamOn said:
Interesting topic so why did the disciples continue to baptize yet Jesus did not and I assume did not baptize anyone in water I don’t think is there any scripture that mentions that.
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That is a good question The completed work of the cross was not done yet. The only baptism known of water was that of repentance also known as the "baptism of John" you will see that in the book of Acts too after Jesus ascended. Paul confronted this in Acts 19 :3

in the Gospel of John Chapter 1 we read the Jesus is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit John 1:33. John the baptist drew the contrast of his baptism of water and Jesus who will baptize with the Holy Sprit.

There is in John chapter four verse 4:1-2 it is noticed That the disciples were baptizing but Jesus did not baptize anyone.
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

Well-known member
#718
Dec 10, 2019
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#718
CS1 said:
If they are believer, new or old what made them believer to begin with? Faith in Christ alone. After they have believed they need to be baptized in obedience to the one they confess they believed in.
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What if they don’t have a chance to be baptized?
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#719
May 23, 2012
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#719
Aerials1978 said:
What if they don’t have a chance to be baptized?
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again if they do not have chance to be baptized that will be between them and the Lord. Not having a chance and not obeying are not the something.
 
Aerials1978

Aerials1978

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#720
Dec 10, 2019
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#720
CS1 said:
again if they do not have chance to be baptized that will be between them and the Lord. Not having a chance and not obeying are not the something.
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What if one choose not to be baptized? Do they lose their salvation? I know that’s a hypothetical, but I’m sure through history that has occurred.
 
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