Woman can't teach in the congregation

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Jun 29, 2018
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there are many Acadimics that support the idea. the DSS scrolls are mostly Hebrew and Aramaic (very little Greek, and their own theology writing was always in Hebrew.
this is from the writings of Epiphanius around 350 concerning the ebionites.

"They too accept the Gospel according to Matthew. Like the Cerinthians and Merinthians, they too use it alone. They
call it, “According to the Hebrews,” and it is true to say that only Matthew expounded and preached the Gospel in the Hebrew language and alphabet"
The Ebionites could have possessed the Hebrew text of the Gospel of Matthew, but this does not necessarily mean that it was the original text, because it could be a translation from Greek.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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The Ebionites could have possessed the Hebrew text of the Gospel of Matthew, but this does not necessarily mean that it was the original text, because it could be a translation from Greek.
its strange that epiphanius would think it was in Hebrew, he was roman and anti Jewish. not likely he would make it up.
it also makes no sense for the Essenes, who wrere deeply connected to Christianity, whote in Hebrew just like the other Jewish sects. and the early Jewish Christians, we are told, would deviate from this. why the change? they wanted to be more roman?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I would offer that we look at the word teach as to how it is used? I would think it would have to do more like with Moses who used the word of God to help judge the conflicts of relationships in order to keep peace between man and woman .

The new order had come because of the reformation where now men and woman could then gather together as one, as a representative glory.

Previously separated by a wall (the middle court )when only men could participate in the ceremonial laws. God elevating woman to a equal position as prophets sent our to declare the gospel of salvation .

Woman were counselling men or were counselled by men causing disorder. You could say like in the work market today.

Christ alone is reckoned as our infallible teacher, as the one who works in us, the one who brings the increase .

Just as we are to call no man on earth father, the same applies to teacher . We as brothers and sisters bring the gospel the Holy Spirit the preacher, applies the good news to ones heart.

They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi,( Master) Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.Mathew 23:6-10

In that way we do not accredit the teaching authority to man or woman .and in doing so violate the warning in respect to the spirit of the antichrists, given in 1 John 2.

These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.1 John 2:26-27

Men or woman as a new creation bring the gospel as planting the seed or watering it with the doctrines of God. Christ causes the growth if there is any.

In that way he protects the faith of God (unseen principle ) while others desire to eulogize the flesh, as that seen .

Even the Son of man, Jesus when called good master or Rabbi in effect said; no man can serve two masters (.the flesh as that seen and the unseen Spirit

Misunderstandings the laying on of hands to represent doing the will of another they accredited it to the flesh of Christ, in which he informs us in John 6 it could not profit as a spiritual work. Therefore the Son of man, Jesus as that seen gives the glory to the father not seen, the good credit

When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Mathew 19: 15-17
 

Nauga

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Jun 7, 2018
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I was not referring to a particular post but was just offering my observations about the Bible Discussion Forum after 4 years of being a member. As far a Paul is concerned, there is a big difference between saying that he does not permit such and such a thing and saying that God does not permit it. That des not mean that his writing was not inspired but indeed it was by the Holy Spirit as with everything else in the Word of God. I believe that Paul was offering his opinion that was based on his own personal bias, culture, tradition and understanding. Personally, I don't see how it is a sin by having a woman who feels led by the Holy Spirit to teach about God to a man who is hungry for spiritual nourishment, whether in a church setting or outside the church.
Did you read the context? I don't mean just the verse in front of it and the one following, I mean, in this case, the two or three chapters in front of it. Did you see what was happening there?
 

Nauga

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Jun 7, 2018
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I have no bias towards Christianity. I do not search for theories to validate it. Years ago I read a book on the Dead Sea Scrolls found in the cave in Qumrun. I have the picture so stop invalidating what I said.



No I did not ignore them. In fact I answered you. there are answers for everything and the Bible is not the mashup of mistakes you are being led to think it is.



I never said Galileans spoke Greek or Latin. That is not what I said at all. you know, I spent some time putting my response together but I don't have time to waste.



I did not say the Holy Spirit is the answer. You remind me of a drowning man at this point. Someone is trying to save his life and they are holding out a life preserver and the drowning man will not take it. He just keeps crying out 'help I'm drowning'.

do you think you are the only one who has had ever had a crisis of faith? I'm sure you don't. or do you think you are the only who has ever said they were done with Christianity...and walked away with the hope that maybe somewhere there is a God or maybe they believed in God but not in Christians?

if there were no more books in the world and your life was in danger would you call on an author to save you? a man like yourself? or would you call on God in whatever vague realm you thought He might exist in? that's a real question. and some of us have faced it square on. it has been said there are no agnostics in the trenches during a war. some will curse God and some will finally cry out for mercy

I'm not much on emotions when it comes for proof of something.



I did not say you cannot trust anything written unless it was written by someone endowed with the Holy Spirit. You bet that God would allow you to be right where you are. If He had said to you 'don't go there. don't read those books. would you have listened? most of us do not listen. I have not listened and suffered for it.

however the Holy Spirit is real but God does not force us. God's word is the basis for judgement but you do not believe that anymore. the Holy Spirit is many things to believers but He is not stopping people from going forward with even the worst decision of their life. that is not a direct reference to you. you are far from alone. there are many bad decisions a person can make, Christian or no. we can talk ourselves into most anything.



I certainly do not practice whatever version of Christianity you disdain. doesn't sound like anything I would agree with anyway

when we way church, we need to look at the world...past, present and future

will there be Chinese, Russian, Africans, Eskimos and every other nation represented? yes there will be.

I try to keep a bigger picture in mind...I don't try to find my answers...and believe me, I got some deep questions, here or in church

I have participated in the threads on this site and so yes, haha, I have looked at them.

we cannot look at another and disbelieve God because of the other.

ps...please overlook spelling mistakes if there are some. I'm not checking it
Just so you two can stop arguing about what language....Aramaic is a dialect of Hebrew. One understands the other.
 
Jun 29, 2018
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its strange that epiphanius would think it was in Hebrew, he was roman and anti Jewish. not likely he would make it up.
it also makes no sense for the Essenes, who wrere deeply connected to Christianity, whote in Hebrew just like the other Jewish sects. and the early Jewish Christians, we are told, would deviate from this. why the change? they wanted to be more roman?
Irenaeus and Epiphanius, referring to Papias, spread the legend of the Hebrew original of the gospel of St. Matthew. But from Papias report it is not entirely clear whether it is really about the Hebrew original of the same Gospel that we know as "Matthew."
After all, the canonical Matthew has a very close literary connection with the text of Mark, Matthew gives many quotations exactly according to the greek Septuagint, by all signs the canonical Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek and among his main sources was greek text of Mark.
As for Papias' account of Matthew, who "wrote Jesus' sayings in Hebrew", most likely we can talk about some early collection of the logias of Jesus, like the Gospel of Thomas, and it is quite possible that such a document was attributed to Matthew in the time of Papias.

By the way, regarding the Gospel of Thomas - it is very suitable for many signs of Papias' description of the document "Matthew". Moreover, modern researchers come to the conclusion that the original language of the Gospel of Thomas was precisely the Syriac.
When we comparing the Greek fragments of the Gospel of Thomas with his Coptic text, the existence of different versions of this document is revealed in the early period of it tradition, and the version preserved in the Coptic translation appeared, apparently, as a result re-composing of logias (if we assume that the Greek fragments correspond to an earlier version of this document).
In the early period many documents only began to "seek" their "authors": thus, the synoptic gospels until the second half of the second century were nameless (they were called memorable writtings of the apostles, or each gospel was simply called - "Gospel") and only by the time of Irenaeus began to be called "according to Mark", "according to Matthew", etc.
The same can be true for the history of the emergence of the name of the Gospel of Thomas. In the time of Papias document like the Gospel of Thomas (some of its early edition, as discussed above) can be issued as writting of Matthew. Papias could perceive the Syriac language (= Aramaic dialect) of this document that it is the Hebrew language. So could have appeared the legend of Papias about Matthew, that he wrote in Hebrew. This document could be attributed later to Thomas, with the strengthening in Syria of the cult of this apostle.
My opinion is that Papias reports an early document that was known at that time as the writting of Matthew, this document was subsequently revised and in later distributed as the Gospel of Thomas (ie, Papias tells not of the canonical Gospel according to Matthew).
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Did you read the context? I don't mean just the verse in front of it and the one following, I mean, in this case, the two or three chapters in front of it. Did you see what was happening there?
Can't say that I did, I just read the part about how no matter what bible verse that is supplied there will be at least one person who would find fault with it. OK, I believe that we're done here. I understand also what you are saying about the importance of context but that wasn't really the gist of my post.
 

Diakonos

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Jan 19, 2019
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The Greek word for authority, as used repeatedly elsewhere in the NT, is "exousia". Only in this one case is "authenteo" used at all. It simply is not the common word for "authority". Therefore a different meaning is strongly implied. "Domineer" is a likely candidate, but then the sense is not "exercise authority over (in any sense)" but rather, "domineer (rule over harshly)". The meaning of the verse would therefore have something to do with the manner or motivation by which the woman teaches and leads, not the fact of her teaching or leading.
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Here are 9 different lexicons (including BDAG and LSJ)
 
S

Scribe

Guest
Thanks. Do you realize that this supports what Dino presented about the word. "Give Orders To" "Tell a man what to do" It is not the office of a Bible Teacher that Paul had in mind but a "Correcting a Man" that was so shameful. Like when a wife corrects her husband or attempts to Teach him, "Give orders to" like he is one of the kids in the family that she is bossing around all day.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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Thanks. Do you realize that this supports what Dino presented about the word. "Give Orders To" "Tell a man what to do" It is not the office of a Bible Teacher that Paul had in mind but a "Correcting a Man" that was so shameful. Like when a wife corrects her husband or attempts to Teach him, "Give orders to" like he is one of the kids in the family that she is bossing around all day.
Well Scribe, how's it feel to wear the apron, and have dish pan hands? :giggle:
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
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Thanks. Do you realize that this supports what Dino presented about the word. "Give Orders To" "Tell a man what to do" It is not the office of a Bible Teacher that Paul had in mind but a "Correcting a Man" that was so shameful. Like when a wife corrects her husband or attempts to Teach him, "Give orders to" like he is one of the kids in the family that she is bossing around all day.
I wasn't sharing because to help any specific person. I shared because it's the truth. I honestly didn't really look into your conversation with him. I just shared clarifying information. Getting to the truth is what matters. I don't pick sides. Everyone gets a fair, unbiased shot with me, even if we have disagreed in the past about something else. Mark 9:40
 
S

Scribe

Guest
Well Scribe, how's it feel to wear the apron, and have dish pan hands? :giggle:
Ha. It's the single man's life. I hate dirty dishes. My sinks stay clean. But I've never bothered with an apron. I am a bit of a risk taker. I use palmolive so my hands are always smooth and silky. :)
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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washing dishes is equal opportunity.
Besides, who wants to eat off dirty dishes?

men should ALREADY know how to do it, dont need a women to teach them lol.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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News Flash: Men who do not rule over their wives should not teach. Theology 101.

The sad thing is nowhere in scripture does it say a man is to rule over a woman. it says a Husband is too.

We are to love our wives as Christ loves the Church and gave Himself for it. What God said in the Garden after the fall was not how it was from the beginning. The fallen state of man rules over his wife.

The saved Believer loves his wife as Christ loves the church and wives are to WILLFULLY submit AS unto the Lord.

many of those men who say garbage like "Men who do not rule over their wives should not teach. "

most likely were never married or on wife number two which they will make concessions for divorces.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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HI,

In my opinion, the bible says clearly that woman can't teach in the congregation. Why almost all of the denominations allow the woman to teach? And I think it's not the problem in the denominations only but in the home meetings as well.

King James version:

1. Tim. 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1. Kor. 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1. Kor. 14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ps. I don't belong to any denomination as the bible clearly says that there is only one congregation in every city. There were no names for congregations with early Christians.
There is a good M.A. dissertation that examines this in detail and puts the Scripture quotes in their correct context, which makes the prohibition of women's ministry in the church unBiblical and unfairly restrictive.
 

Attachments

Mar 17, 2021
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Evidence suggests that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is an interpolation that Paul didn't write.

link > Is 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 an interpolation?
Notice that the context of the chapter is about the giving of prophecies, and so it is Paul's response to married women disrupting services by loudly questioning the content of prophecies given in the service. Paul says that these women should keep silence during the service and to ask their husbands at home. Paul was dealing with a specific issue that was occurring in the Corinthians church and was not a blanket prohibition on women's ministry in the churches. In 1 Corinthians 11, he fully supports single women giving prophecies in church. It is one thing to quote single verses to support a notion, but quite another to examine the whole breadth of the New Testament to see how women have a place in the ministry of the church.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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You forgot that Priscila is one of the female workers of the 1st Century Christian Church. so women can preach but they cannot lead the Christian Church like Peter and Paul.
If that is so, how come Paul fully supports Junia the female apostle, and Lydia who led a church in her home? Either Paul is contradicting himself, or that he never intended to prohibit women's ministry in the churches.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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This subject gets re-opened, usually by newcomers to CC, about every two to three months. At times the discussion goes on for many pages... sometimes over a hundred. Those who start the threads rarely learn anything, because typically their minds are already made up and they are here to browbeat others with their understanding. So, here we go again.

Typically, the context of the contentious passages is completely ignored, if it is considered at all. Paul was writing to the Corinthians about disorderly meetings and use of gifts. He wrote to Timothy about the cultural context in which Timothy was ministering. Ignore the context, and you will likely conclude from the selected verses that Paul was against female leadership, as the OP has.

Sadly, the OP is just more fulfillment of the words God spoke to Eve... 'but he will rule over you'. So many people take this as a command (which it most definitely isn't) or as warrant for male leadership(again, it isn't).

Anyway, I'll make a pot of coffee and wait for the OP to present an original thought. It might be a while.
I agree. Married women were loudly questioning the content of prophecies given in the meetings, thereby disrupting the meetings. Paul says that if they have questions about the prophecies, they should ask their husbands at home. He was clearly referring to married women, and not singles; otherwise he would be contradicting what he said in 1 Corinthians 11 about young women having their heads covered when praying or prophesying in church.

In the Timothy reference, Paul was advising Timothy about specific issues in the Ephesian churches where some women were starting to dominate and usurp authority over the men. It wasn't a prohibition on women's ministry, but the aggressive manner that these women were going about it. Of course, we get this in churches today where there are aggressive women undermining the pastor and elders. But a woman appointed to minister and teach under the authority of the eldership is quite appropriate and Paul would never have opposed it.

Also, the prohibition of women's ministry in churches was unknown to all the church fathers before Tertullian, and he started teaching it in reaction to the Montanists who featured dominant woman prophets whom he believed were acting inappropriately. Because Tertullian was a very well-respected church father, the Latin churches adopted his teaching concerning women's ministry and put a blanket prohibition on all the Latin churches.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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Men are supposed to submit to their wives too :) Theology 101.

Submit yourselves to one another because of your reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:21
My wife is someone who should be loved and obeyed at all times, and her influence and example has made me a much better Bible teacher!
 
S

Scribe

Guest
I agree. Married women were loudly questioning the content of prophecies given in the meetings, thereby disrupting the meetings. Paul says that if they have questions about the prophecies, they should ask their husbands at home. He was clearly referring to married women, and not singles; otherwise he would be contradicting what he said in 1 Corinthians 11 about young women having their heads covered when praying or prophesying in church.

In the Timothy reference, Paul was advising Timothy about specific issues in the Ephesian churches where some women were starting to dominate and usurp authority over the men. It wasn't a prohibition on women's ministry, but the aggressive manner that these women were going about it. Of course, we get this in churches today where there are aggressive women undermining the pastor and elders. But a woman appointed to minister and teach under the authority of the eldership is quite appropriate and Paul would never have opposed it.

Also, the prohibition of women's ministry in churches was unknown to all the church fathers before Tertullian, and he started teaching it in reaction to the Montanists who featured dominant woman prophets whom he believed were acting inappropriately. Because Tertullian was a very well-respected church father, the Latin churches adopted his teaching concerning women's ministry and put a blanket prohibition on all the Latin churches.
It should be obvious to those filled with the Holy Spirit that God is filling both men and women with the Holy Spirit for the purpose of world evangelism in whatever capacity God wants to use them in. No limits. God will raise up whom He will raise up. Any my heart rejoices when I think about it. It is just like God to use a woman in a mighty way to plant and pastor a church just because she is despised and considered incapable by the religious pharisees. Just like God to do that. I would that all God's people were prophets and that He would pour His Spirit upon them all. Many women planted and pastored churches between 1910 and 1940s I have been reading about them in the history of the Pentecostal movement. There are many churches today pastored by men which were started by women during those years.