Woman can't teach in the congregation

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Sep 4, 2012
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Agreed. I've also heard that it could mean "domineer" or even "claim to be the originator of" (the latter is from a recording I heard many years ago and I can't locate the source). Both ideas make good sense of the context... which the traditional patriarchal interpretation does not.

What the passage doesn't say is "Women (plural general) must not lead, teach, or be in authority over men". Paul was more than sufficiently adept at language that were such his intent, he would have written it more clearly and directly.
I was thinking. Authenteo (αὐθεντέω, 831) could mean acting independently. Since the words man and woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 also mean husband and wife, Paul could have simply been saying that it's not good for a wife to act independently of her husband.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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News Flash: Men who do not rule over their wife should not teach. Theology 101.
In practical example how should the husband rule over his wife? So the wife has no say in anything? Feel sorry for her.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Not according to my Bible - authority (to domineer) is in the original Greek

(ABP+) And a wifeG1135 G1161 [4to teachG1321 2notG3756 1I commit 3to their care],G2010 norG3761 to domineerG831 a husband,G435 butG235 to beG1510.1 G1722 at rest.G2271

(ABP-G+) γυναικι δεG1135 G1161 διδασκεινG1321 ουκG3756 επιτρεπωG2010 ουδεG3761 αυθεντεινG831 ανδροςG435 αλλ΄G235 ειναιG1510.1 ενG1722 ησυχιαG2271
The Greek word for authority, as used repeatedly elsewhere in the NT, is "exousia". Only in this one case is "authenteo" used at all. It simply is not the common word for "authority". Therefore a different meaning is strongly implied. "Domineer" is a likely candidate, but then the sense is not "exercise authority over (in any sense)" but rather, "domineer (rule over harshly)". The meaning of the verse would therefore have something to do with the manner or motivation by which the woman teaches and leads, not the fact of her teaching or leading.
 
Dec 9, 2017
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In practical example how should the husband rule over his wife? So the wife has no say in anything? Feel sorry for her.
You and several others are totally missing the Point.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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You and several others are totally missing the Point.
And what, then, is the point? While you're answering that question, perhaps you can answer my other one from page 1.
 
Dec 9, 2017
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It simply means the husband is the head of the family and will be held more accountable than the wife or the child. The family has a say and are dearly loved and respected but the final say is the fathers. Just like Eve was the first to disobey but Adam was held responsible, he should have stopped her not follow her. Of course I wish you luck on stopping some women : )
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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It simply means the husband is the head of the family and will be held more accountable than the wife or the child. The family has a say and are dearly loved and respected but the final say is the fathers. Just like Eve was the first to disobey but Adam was held responsible, he should have stopped her not follow her. Of course I wish you luck on stopping some women : )
Adam was held responsible for his sin, not hers.

Regarding your last comment, women are no more inherently sinful than men. Generalizing in such a way only reflects on you.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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It simply means the husband is the head of the family and will be held more accountable than the wife or the child. The family has a say and are dearly loved and respected but the final say is the fathers. Just like Eve was the first to disobey but Adam was held responsible, he should have stopped her not follow her. Of course I wish you luck on stopping some women : )
Eve was deceived, Adam knowingly disobeyed.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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The Greek word for authority, as used repeatedly elsewhere in the NT, is "exousia". Only in this one case is "authenteo" used at all. It simply is not the common word for "authority". Therefore a different meaning is strongly implied. "Domineer" is a likely candidate, but then the sense is not "exercise authority over (in any sense)" but rather, "domineer (rule over harshly)". The meaning of the verse would therefore have something to do with the manner or motivation by which the woman teaches and leads, not the fact of her teaching or leading.
The Greek word is authentein, and you're right, it's only used here (1 Tim 2:12) in the Bible. I'm no scholar, but some work has been done suggesting that it meant "originator", meaning that women should not teach that they were the originator of men. Paul goes on to say in vv13 and 14 that Adam came first. It's possible that the women were NOT learning the truth, and were susceptible to the pagan teachings that women were created first, and not men. Paul wanted then to learn the truth (v11), and not teach the pagan belief that women came first. There's quite a bit on google about it..

I have heard that more has been written on 1 Tim 2:11-12 than about any other scripture, people trying to explain these strange verses.

Why would God hobble half of the body of Christ simply because they were born the "wrong" sex? Junia would have been a very ineffective apostle if she had not been permitted to teach.. And Chloe would have had a hard time running the church that was in her house.

And concerning 1 Cor 14:34-35, there is evidence those two verses are not original.

Males and females are certainly different, and have different roles in life and family, but in Christ, there is no male or female (Gal 3:28).
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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While there is nothing inherently wrong with going by the English translation in most cases, in this particular case, some deeper study is needed. The Greek word authentein is used only in 1 Timothy 2, and the meaning of it is uncertain at best. It certainly is not the same word that Paul uses elsewhere, so to assume (and even argue) that it means the same thing is naive.

Scripture does not say that Eve sinned first. It says that she was deceived. The first sin is accounted to Adam... in several places.
1 Tim 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Gen 3:6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

However much you want to twist and turn and stretch your imagination, from the above, you have no choice other than conclude that Eve disobeyed/sinned first and then Adam. Yet sin/death did not come into the world through Eve.

In 1 Tim, Paul says that Eve was the one who sinned.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Scripture does not say that Eve sinned first. It says that she was deceived.
This is false. All you have to do is follow the narrative in Genesis 3.

Eve sinned first, then caused Adam to sin. Absolutely no one can deny this.

Eve knew God's commandment as much as Adam did, but she CHOSE TO misrepresent it to herself and to the Devil. Therefore God held her accountable, even though it was Adam's sin which brought a curse upon humanity and creation.

And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? (Gen 3:13).

The real question now is why you are promoting a false narrative, since you simply cannot accept what God has said about Eve and about women. But no one has the right or the authority to change what is stated in Scripture.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Adam was held responsible for his sin, not hers.

Regarding your last comment, women are no more inherently sinful than men. Generalizing in such a way only reflects on you.
You are definitely clueless. Sin is a spirit/mind whose manifestation is on the flesh (acts) or words (tongue).
Adam's payment for his sin's manifestation was to work the land and eat in sweat; Eve's payment for her sin's manifestation was to bear children in pain. BUT the sin which is also death was totally on Adam's account and not Eve- the reason it is said sin and therefore death came through one man.
Eve was the first to sin, it should be said sin and death came through Eve but they don't, it is on the account of Adam only because He had dominion over everything.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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While we have many verses in the New Testament commanding women to be quite, submissive, obedient, not to teach man etc, we have no command to women to teach men, not to submit to men or to lead churches.

We have some possible cases (in Acts or in greetings) of women doing something of that, but we are not lead by examples of people in the Bible, we are led by what God says to do.

---

So far, opponents of traditional patriarchal society/church try to negate/limit verses saying what contradicts today´s social status of women, but they have no positive evidence for their side.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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The meaning seems indicate acting autocratically

Thank you for those definitions. It's interesting to me because I look at the verse more like when paul was talking about marriage between a woman and a man and then he said he was speaking about Christ and the church. He was really speaking about the spirit of the matter.

So when you look at the spirit of this matter that we're talking about, it wouldn't be about a human husband and wife but once again, about Christ and the church.

I realize some may think I'm nuts with what I've said above, but none of Gods' word, which is eternal, really has to do with the temporal. The words are Spirit and eternal and they are...hidden behind the temporal meaning somehow.

So if I'm right, the spirit of the words has to do with the bride of Christ, the church, the woman. And it is she who paul says is not to:

control in a domineering manner ( who wants to lead must serve)
to dominate men (think catholic church)
to act like a chief toward ( lord it over men/the church)
one who acts on his own authority (usurping from the Holy Spirit)
exercise dominion over (control - think catholic church again)
to usurp authority (from the Holy Spirit)

When you look at the spirit of the words, there IS no problem.
We should always be looking for the spirit of the words because the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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It simply means the husband is the head of the family and will be held more accountable than the wife or the child. The family has a say and are dearly loved and respected but the final say is the fathers. Just like Eve was the first to disobey but Adam was held responsible, he should have stopped her not follow her. Of course I wish you luck on stopping some women : )
OK, I go along with that. I would gladly have God charge to my account anything regarding my wife, reaping what she has sown. Of course, my wife is a kind and decent person. I may have final say but I chose to give her the last word.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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The word teaching is not used in respect to a man or a woman .God is the infallible teacher, as one

Since the scriptures inform us that it is God alone is the infallible teacher and just as in the same way we are not to call any man Father on earth, as that seen, because one is our spiritual father in heaven, not seen. The same applies with the word teacher/master.

One is our Master /Teacher in heaven we are all brothers and sisters in Christ .In that way, we are to call no person good teacher on earth. Even the Son of man led by the unseen Spirit of Christ as that seen when called "good teacher".... replied only God, not seen is good in order to not destroy the faith principle as a law of faith .

I beleive earthy teacher (not infallible) are teach how to hear God, as the Spirit speaks to the churches (believers) seeking the approval of one not seen.

Sort of like the call of Samuel the last judge. Eli teaching, helping Samuel learn the difference between using his imagination, and God not seen, speaking. Something it seems that today the advance in electronics and techknowlogy especially video games are taking the away the faith principle, as that which come from hearing God .

Make me wonder like the query in Luke 18. When Christ comes on the last day will he find faith or a worn out religious book thrown in with the philosophies of men. I think we are to teach how to hear as in listening and doing . Or hear and obey, no need to teach children or maybe adults how to amuse themselves, not think . My wife has not given up. If she saw another woman trying to teach me it would go over like a wet balloon. The she would have to save me from drowning in my own sorros . I have a geat wife who does teach me at Home. We together as a hope of one like Mary and Martha or David and Johnathon worked together . women can teach men their husband at home

She loves hard like Deborah a name meaning bee

1 Samuel 1:1-3 (KJV)
And the child Samuel ministered unto the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was precious in those days; there was no open vision. And it came to pass at that time, when Eli was laid down in his place, and his eyes began to wax dim, that he could not see; And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the Lord, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;

Three time with three used to represent the end of the matter

That the Lord called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I.
And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down.
And the Lord called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again.
Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord yet revealed unto him. And the Lord called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the Lord had called the child. Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.1 Samuel 1:4-9

We preach Christ the promised teacher comforter and Guide who bring to our minds that which he has taught us not the power by which mankind can beleive God us men or woman.So the teaching in those verses must represent something else. God does the teaching as one in heaven not seen

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


That I believe would represent the kind of teaching that God would give his approval to
The woman not teaching men has to do with the dangers of one seeking a relationship as personal advice. To maintain order when gathering together God set up some ceremonial laws.

That verse in regard to a woman not teaching man has to do with counseling. Men are to counsel men, and woman counsel woman.... together as one bride they can represent the unseen veiled glory that speaks to the wedding supper in the new heavens and earth.That veil will be removed in the new heavens and earth

Prior to the time of reformation women were not allowed to mingle with the males. The had a separate court with a high wall prevented them as being part of the ceremonial law, called the middle wall (15 feet high) .a little higher than the gentile court. I would guess not quite as bad according the unbelieving (no faith ) Jew who goal is was to keep woman under their thump as salves and not wives, equal partners
Like Eli the priest men must of thought woman were always drunk ,as in how could they prophecy like that of Hannah (meaning the grace of God) ?

9 So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the Lord.
10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the Lord, and wept sore.
11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O Lord of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.
12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the Lord, that Eli marked her mouth.
13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
14 And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.
15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord.
16 Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto 1 Samuel 1:9-15

Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


We can see that in the prophecy of Joel when men and women alike could participate as a representative glory . The time of reformation had come restoring the government as it was before there were Kings as that seen in Israel restoring it back to the time of Judge when God used men and woman alike to fulfil prophecy.

Personally, I believe much has been lost in the new ceremonial law, the head unconverted, for the male, with the head of hair, (woman's representative glory) covered for the woman. It was to coincide with a work together with the breaking of bread as one ceremony ordinance to represent the consummation of these bodies of death into our new incorruptible bodies as we then can share the new wine made from the water of the word
 
Feb 7, 2017
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In my opinion, the bible says clearly that woman can't teach in the congregation.
I totally agree with you.

Why almost all of the denominations allow the woman to teach?
Unfortunately, the feminist movement infiltrated churches and cowed pastors and other religious leaders. They prefer to try to please women rather than Jesus, contrary to what Paul and Jesus say:

  • "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." (Gal 1.10)
  • "How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?" (John 5.44).
Lamentably, they serve to their belly:

  • "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" (Php 3.18,19).
May we be as the Lord instructed Joshua:

  • "Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them. Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest." (Joshua 1.6-9).