Women as Preachers: Does God's word authorize this???

[tribesman]

Perhaps you can ask Robo if you can have a discussion area where all the men can speak on their own topics and women can view the threads but cannot type in to add.That way, men can still get their preaching to both sexes, but women cannot add anything.

And the women - so as not to be seen as teaching or usurping authority - will just stick to the ladies forum if they want to have a discussion about, well, anything. And that goes for chat rooms too.

Even better, ask Robo to create a male only website, which women can view but cannot participate on!
A total call for segregation online

This your comment is neither as smart nor as humorous as you might think it is.

If you can't see the difference between discussing and teaching then I guess you have to work on that, to start with.

Btw, noone here has suggested that women be categorically dead silent. Which should go without saying in most cases, doubtful in this case.

 

[Bea22]

This your comment is neither as smart nor as humorous as you might think it is.

If you can't see the difference between discussing and teaching then I guess you have to work on that, to start with.

Btw, noone here has suggested that women be categorically dead silent. Which should go without saying in most cases, doubtful in this case.

Ah... here I am answering a post again. I'm glad you pointed that out ^.
The difference between a discussion of the Word and teaching the Word is simply the factor that some define an online discussion as teaching. And, that if the Word is not agreed upon, then it turns to expounding - or explaining - your point of view. It's still a discussion. Meaning, everyone has their point of view, everyone can use scripture - which is clearly what it's about - and everyone can remain with their own ideas in tact. Women are clearly not in a position of authority, rather, everyone's view is openly discussed and it's a kind of back and forth thing.
No one has suggested that women keep dead silent? Then perhaps your first comment about "what about women teaching in forums such as this" - I paraphrase - has been misunderstood by myself. This is obviously a mixed crowd in this Bible discussion forum. So how far do you want to take it that women should not teach? Perhaps you can define your idea of teaching - as opposed to a discussion. Is it similar to the one I've just said?
My previous comment is in relation to how far to the extreme do you - people - want to take it. So, please teach your point of view...

 

[tribesman]

Ah... here I am answering a post again. I'm glad you pointed that out ^.
The difference between a discussion of the Word and teaching the Word is simply the factor that some define an online discussion as teaching. And, that if the Word is not agreed upon, then it turns to expounding - or explaining - your point of view. It's still a discussion. Meaning, everyone has their point of view, everyone can use scripture - which is clearly what it's about - and everyone can remain with their own ideas in tact. Women are clearly not in a position of authority, rather, everyone's view is openly discussed and it's a kind of back and forth thing.
No one has suggested that women keep dead silent? Then perhaps your first comment about "what about women teaching in forums such as this" - I paraphrase - has been misunderstood by myself. This is obviously a mixed crowd in this Bible discussion forum. So how far do you want to take it that women should not teach? Perhaps you can define your idea of teaching - as opposed to a discussion. Is it similar to the one I've just said?
My previous comment is in relation to how far to the extreme do you - people - want to take it. So, please teach your point of view...

I am not wholly sure about your intentions of going into such lengths to pinpoint this simple thing. About definitions, I do not have any other such than what is objective and must be assumed.

teach·ing (t

ch

ng)
n.1. The act, practice, occupation, or profession of a teacher.
2.a. Something taught.2.b. A precept or doctrine. Often used in the plural: the teachings of Buddha.

teach·ing/ˈtēCHiNG/
Noun:

• The occupation, profession, or work of a teacher.
• Ideas or principles taught by an authority: "the teachings of the Koran".

dis·cuss (d

-sk

s

) tr.v. dis·cussed, dis·cuss·ing, dis·cuss·es
1. To speak with another or others about; talk over.
2. To examine or consider (a subject) in speech or writing.

Exemplifying this practically at the boards, one could see a line of difference between someone who is coming with questions and even objections to a teaching (yet showing an attitude of wanting to discuss same to learn) as in contrast to someone who is objecting and saying "this is how it is" (showing an attitude of wanting to teach others) thus appealing to authority.

 

[Bea22]

I like that explanation. However, a point I want to make on the words in Timothy is this:
People who believe in going to church, believe that they are hearing the Word of God from their pastor. Therefore, what he / she says, they submit to - as being from God. A teacher is someone in authority. 'Wives submit to your husbands' is saying he has the last say, you don't.
On this discussion forum, no one has the last say, other than God. No one is 'submitting' to any words that anyone says as being the final say. People can use God's Word to show what HE says about it. But it is not the same as submitting, like a wife should, or like a congregation do.
That's my view anyway. And can I just say, I'm glad you are a man standing for the Word of God on this matter

 

[tribesman]

I like that explanation. However, a point I want to make on the words in Timothy is this:
People who believe in going to church, believe that they are hearing the Word of God from their pastor. Therefore, what he / she says, they submit to - as being from God. A teacher is someone in authority. 'Wives submit to your husbands' is saying he has the last say, you don't.
On this discussion forum, no one has the last say, other than God. No one is 'submitting' to any words that anyone says as being the final say. People can use God's Word to show what HE says about it. But it is not the same as submitting, like a wife should, or like a congregation do.
That's my view anyway.

There are two problems with this view. I believe any believer should submit to correct and sound teaching (wherever that is found) and correct himself where applicable, even unto the point where it will affect his fellowship affiliation. No leader is an authority in and by himself. We are to submit to leaders in as much as they do teach soundly according to the word of God.

Number two is that the statement does not only limit itself distinctively to church affairs or settings, it is a general rule in life that women are not to rule over men. Paul says "nor to usurp authority over the man", after having denounced women as teaching authorities. In context this clearly indicates a general rule pertaining to all areas of life.

1Tim.2

[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Personally I am sick and tired of this chopped up reading of Paul so common these days. Most things Paul taught, instructed and commanded (unless otherwise clearly stated) were general in nature, to be hearkened to by all churches=all christians. Which of course also includes us today.

And can I just say, I'm glad you are a man standing for the Word of God on this matter

Thanks for that. It is good to stand for it. It brings many blessings and it helps people much.

 

[Bea22]

There are two problems with this view. I believe any believer should submit to correct and sound teaching (wherever that is found) and correct himself where applicable, even unto the point where it will affect his fellowship affiliation. No leader is an authority in and by himself. We are to submit to leaders in as much as they do teach soundly according to the word of God.

No arguments there. But you don't go to hear a man's word, do you? You either submit to what he says - as being from God - or you find some place else. But you should have enough discernment to tell the difference between a man's word and God's. With all things there is a balance. I think you are looking too far into the point I am making. Goes back to whether Paul's word is God's Word or not. We understand they are men. We understand they are fallible and that at some point during their sermon, they will say words that are theirs. They may even paraphrase. No man just stands up there and reads directly out of the Bible, word for word and quote for quote. What good is that going to do? May as well stay home and read it yourself.
BUT I agree with your point that "We are to submit to leaders in as much as they do teach soundly according to the word of God."

Number two is that the statement does not only limit itself distinctively to church affairs or settings, it is a general rule in life that women are not to rule over men. Paul says "nor to usurp authority over the man", after having denounced women as teaching authorities. In context this clearly indicates a general rule pertaining to all areas of life.

General rule pertaining to all areas of life. Yes. Now what about on these forums? Where is the ruling going on? And which man is in submission to what a woman says? Again, how far to the extreme do you want to take it? To the point where women cannot speak on this forum? According to your views on 'objective discussions'? Who has the final say?

Personally I am sick and tired of this chopped up reading of Paul so common these days. Most things Paul taught, instructed and commanded (unless otherwise clearly stated) were general in nature, to be hearkened to by all churches=all christians. Which of course also includes us today.

Thanks for that. It is good to stand for it. It brings many blessings and it helps people much.

Agree with all the last bits

 

[tribesman]

No arguments there. But you don't go to hear a man's word, do you? You either submit to what he says - as being from God - or you find some place else. But you should have enough discernment to tell the difference between a man's word and God's. With all things there is a balance. I think you are looking too far into the point I am making.

No arguments you said, yet the next sentence arguing begins. I don't know what to think, really. But it doesn't look to good I have to say. The questions and obviousness you bring up here has not much to do with what we were discussing.

Goes back to whether Paul's word is God's Word or not. We understand they are men. We understand they are fallible and that at some point during their sermon, they will say words that are theirs. They may even paraphrase. No man just stands up there and reads directly out of the Bible, word for word and quote for quote. What good is that going to do? May as well stay home and read it yourself.
BUT I agree with your point that "We are to submit to leaders in as much as they do teach soundly according to the word of God."

Did I ever even suggest that sound teaching only means reading directly from scripture (which anyone can do by himself)? And you talk about looking too far into points?

General rule pertaining to all areas of life. Yes. Now what about on these forums? Where is the ruling going on? And which man is in submission to what a woman says? Again, how far to the extreme do you want to take it? To the point where women cannot speak on this forum? According to your views on 'objective discussions'? Who has the final say?

I have already answered that in post #503. You said you like that explanation. Why you ask the same thing again is beyond me.

PS. Tell me where you are shooting at with these questions.

 

[Red33]

Ah... here I am answering a post again. I'm glad you pointed that out ^.
The difference between a discussion of the Word and teaching the Word is simply the factor that some define an online discussion as teaching. And, that if the Word is not agreed upon, then it turns to expounding - or explaining - your point of view. It's still a discussion. Meaning, everyone has their point of view, everyone can use scripture - which is clearly what it's about - and everyone can remain with their own ideas in tact. Women are clearly not in a position of authority, rather, everyone's view is openly discussed and it's a kind of back and forth thing.
No one has suggested that women keep dead silent? Then perhaps your first comment about "what about women teaching in forums such as this" - I paraphrase - has been misunderstood by myself. This is obviously a mixed crowd in this Bible discussion forum. So how far do you want to take it that women should not teach? Perhaps you can define your idea of teaching - as opposed to a discussion. Is it similar to the one I've just said?
My previous comment is in relation to how far to the extreme do you - people - want to take it. So, please teach your point of view...

Bea22, you can say, teach and communicate the word here in this setting any way it seems fit, to correct, to instruct and to edify others. The setting on this site is not a local assembly and there are no designated teachers on this site for the purpose of teaching the word and doctrine or for the work of any local ministry. We all have our portion in Christ and we should be free to supply the body of believers here with that portion, each of us doing the same as individual believers and submitting ourselves to one another in that capacity as it is fit.

We are members one of another and on here no one is over another in the Lord, but in the local assembly that would be different and our submission to the word that is taught and preached would be according to humility and meekness and not selective. Many believers choose not to be part of a local assembly and in their heart they do not want to submit to the word that is preached, because they believe differently or are puffed up in their knowledge, either way they are disobedient, independent and are outside the will of God that is revealed in the body of Christ, in the local church.

Here on this site they can find a platform to express themselves and what they believe but are not under any submission to the word that has been preached and taught in the local assembly and, as a joint participant, do not partake of any work of the ministry that goes on in the local church. There are even some that attend church only as a token of their faith but not as apart of a living organism in the body of Christ that is built together with the members of Christ's body as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

Jesus Christ is revealed as the head when we magnify Him in the local assembly as His body, where the brethren dwell together in unity and His life is revealed through the members of that one body. The local body is like a loaf of bread and we make up that one bread being baked in the loaf and we being many, who make up that one bread, reveal Christ, the bread of life from above.

Jn 6:47-51
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Eph 5:30
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones

1Cor 10:16,17,
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1Cor 11:23-29
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

 

[Bea22]

Red, your words are very helpful and encouraging, its becoming a habit
Thank you and God Bless

 

[tribesman]

Bea22, since you've asked it is fair that it be asked back to you what is your take on this? Teaching men as a woman is justified on web discussion forums because there is no one flesh and blood person in charge to "submit" to on these boards? Is that how we should interpret you? if so, then the general rule that Paul gave in named scripture does not apply to this situation? It is not really general, then.

 

[Bea22]

There are two problems with this view. I believe any believer should submit to correct and sound teaching (wherever that is found) and correct himself where applicable, even unto the point where it will affect his fellowship affiliation. No leader is an authority in and by himself. We are to submit to leaders in as much as they do teach soundly according to the word of God.

Number two is that the statement does not only limit itself distinctively to church affairs or settings, it is a general rule in life that women are not to rule over men. Paul says "nor to usurp authority over the man", after having denounced women as teaching authorities. In context this clearly indicates a general rule pertaining to all areas of life.

Personally I am sick and tired of this chopped up reading of Paul so common these days. Most things Paul taught, instructed and commanded (unless otherwise clearly stated) were general in nature, to be hearkened to by all churches=all christians. Which of course also includes us today.

Thanks for that. It is good to stand for it. It brings many blessings and it helps people much.

No arguments you said, yet the next sentence arguing begins. I don't know what to think, really. But it doesn't look to good I have to say. The questions and obviousness you bring up here has not much to do with what we were discussing.

Did I ever even suggest that sound teaching only means reading directly from scripture (which anyone can do by himself)? And you talk about looking too far into points?

I have already answered that in post #503. You said you like that explanation. Why you ask the same thing again is beyond me.

PS. Tell me where you are shooting at with these questions.

Hmm Im sorry to say but you are the one who wanted to break my post into two points 'there are two problems with this view'.
So my answering is not to argue but to address your points. I have agreed with some things you say, and others I haven't.

No you didn't suggest that sound teaching only means reading directly from scripture - but I added it for my own point.

Oh, well I misunderstood, the fact that you stated you had two problems with my post and one is that as a general rule with women today, they should not teach or usurp authority over a man, in all areas of life - I understood that as adding to the discussion we were having about whether women were preaching or discussing on here. It's good if you weren't meaning that. But otherwise, I'm confused as to why you would add it in as a point since we weren't discussing whether it was a general rule today in all areas of life or not...
My bad.

 

[tribesman]

...But otherwise, I'm confused as to why you would add it in as a point since we weren't discussing whether it was a general rule today in all areas of life or not... My bad.

Maybe because you emphasized "going to church". In context it was fully relevant to underline that the said instruction of Paul applies in general. Not only in the church building. Applies on the web too.

See also the Q in post#510.

 

[Bea22]

Bea22, since you've asked it is fair that it be asked back to you what is your take on this? Teaching men as a woman is justified on web discussion forums because there is no one flesh and blood person in charge to "submit" to on these boards? Is that how we should interpret you? if so, then the general rule that Paul gave in named scripture does not apply to this situation? It is not really general, then.

I'm glad FINALLY you've shown your real point of view...

So the question is then, is it teaching, or is it a discussion?

And what is a discussion to you?

And if it IS teaching, maybe my first post to you IS smart.

Sigh.

 

[tribesman]

I'm glad FINALLY you've shown your real point of view...

So the question is then, is it teaching, or is it a discussion?

And what is a discussion to you?

And if it IS teaching, maybe my first post to you IS smart.

Sigh.

*shakes head*

That question was already answered in post#503. I do not have any other definition than the objective and common one, as pointed out in said post. Any private definition I would view as a re-definition and thus invalid.

I have been clear on the difference between discussing and teaching. You said you liked that explanation but yet won't stop asking the same question again and again. An alert is up here.

But you yourself have not explained how you view these two terms. Maybe you have a private definition of them? Or maybe you call teaching "discussing"?

Let us know.

 

[tribesman]

Bea22, while at it, it is quiet obvious that you do think it is justified that women teach men on web forums, since you have "liked" post #508 which used that word. So, I wonder what you were "glad" about in post #504 when you and I in reality do not share the same view on this matter. Why not be honest from the beginning about your own stance? For you Paul's ruling is obviously not general. As you see it there are exceptions where women can teach men, even christian men. Which is opposed to what Paul explicitly taught.

 

[Bea22]

*shakes head*

That question was already answered in post#503. I do not have any other definition than the objective and common one, as pointed out in said post. Any private definition I would view as a re-definition and thus invalid.

I have been clear on the difference between discussing and teaching. You said you liked that explanation but yet won't stop asking the same question again and again. An alert is up here.

But you yourself have not explained how you view these two terms. Maybe you have a private definition of them? Or maybe you call teaching "discussing"?

Let us know.

Hmm I have shared my thoughts on what a discussion is. Right before I asked you what your definition is.

Here is a definition from a dictionary:
dis·cus·sion/disˈkəSHən/Noun:

• The action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.
• A conversation or debate about a certain topic.

teach·ing/ˈtēCHiNG/Noun:

• The occupation, profession, or work of a teacher.
• Ideas or principles taught by an authority: "the teachings of the Koran"

 

[Bea22]

Bea22, while at it, it is quiet obvious that you do think it is justified that women teach men on web forums, since you have "liked" post #508 which used that word. So, I wonder what you were "glad" about in post #504 when you and I in reality do not share the same view on this matter. Why not be honest from the beginning about your own stance? For you Paul's ruling is obviously not general. As you see it there are exceptions where women can teach men, even christian men. Which is opposed to what Paul explicitly taught.

Are you entertaining a debater? Or just having a discussion with me?

 

[tribesman]

Hmm I have shared my thoughts on what a discussion is. Right before I asked you what your definition is.

Here is a definition from a dictionary:
dis·cus·sion/disˈkəSHən/Noun:

• The action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.
• A conversation or debate about a certain topic.

teach·ing/ˈtēCHiNG/Noun:

• The occupation, profession, or work of a teacher.
• Ideas or principles taught by an authority: "the teachings of the Koran"

Yes, but your "thoughts" on what a discussion is was not your view on the definition of same by any stretch. All you said in post#502 was that "The difference between a discussion of the Word and teaching the Word is simply the factor that some define an online discussion as teaching" if not agreed upon "it turns to expounding - or explaining - your point of view", "It's still a discussion".

Then you copied and pasted from the definitions I quoted in my post#503, indicating you go by the same standard. But can any other view be taken as yours than that you think that all that is communicated here on the web forums is only discussion and not teaching, no matter what is being said and how it is said? It can't. Well, I disagree with that view, as explained in post#503. I do see a line of difference, one where women discusses and one where they teaches.

 

[tribesman]

Are you entertaining a debater?

I think you have answered your own question.

Your take on "discussion" is not that reliable.

 

[Bea22]

I think you have answered your own question.

Lol yes I have

dis·cus·sion/disˈkəSHən/

Noun:

• The action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.
• A conversation or debate about a certain topic.

So to debate is to discuss. And that is what we women are doing on these forums. Not teaching or usurping authority.