Women Pastors? Help me.

[Spurgeoncy]

Prophecy and Teaching are two different things though

Romans 12 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

 

[breno785au]

I've had some women teach me some awesome stuff in the church, should I just forget it all?

 

[Spurgeoncy]

What I believe Paul is really saying in regards to women generally is that Natural Law still is in force. The natural laws were established in Adam and Eve. So just as homosexuality is against Natural Law, so certain other things are governed by natural law, which is why he refers to the law in Corinthians in regards to women being obedient. He means natural law here, not mosaic law.

Genesis 3 :16
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Obviously natural law and the law of liberty are at loggerheads, but Paul asserts natural law in certain instances.

Clearly women are capable of understanding sound doctrine, which is why we see Priscilla able to teach, but Paul has something else on his mind and asserts that women should not teach.

I believe a woman could teach under Christ's law of liberty, because men and women are no different in Christ, but they would probably need to check it out carefully with God first....

 

[breno785au]

What I believe Paul is really saying in regards to women generally is that Natural Law still is in force. The natural laws were established in Adam and Eve. So just as homosexuality is against Natural Law, so certain other things are governed by natural law, which is why he refers to the law in Corinthians in regards to women being obedient. He means natural law here, not mosaic law.

Genesis 3 :16
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Obviously natural law and the law of liberty are at loggerheads, but Paul asserts natural law in certain instances.

Clearly women are capable of understanding sound doctrine, which is why we see Priscilla able to teach, but Paul has something else on his mind and asserts that women should not teach.

I believe a woman could teach under Christ's law of liberty, because men and women are no different in Christ, but they would probably need to check it out carefully with God first....

I believe 'thy desire shall be for your husband, but he shall rule of thee' was a consequence, God saying, this is what will happen now, not a law.
Plus, didn't Jesus set us free from this?

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Free in the Freddie Mercury sense?

"All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial".

Even Priscilla teaches alongside Aquila, and not independently.

I would say Paul is giving very sound advice. Yes, it is his opinion:

"I do not suffer..."

But he is very clear about this so I suspect he has a very good reason

 

[tanakh]

If something is from God what gender he uses to deliver is irrelevant. Do those who oppose women preaching ignore everything a woman posts on site?

 

[KJV1611]

I should inform people who do not know, that I am an ordained pastor. I preach and teach in my church. My last sermon touched many people, particularly with regards to the important of repentance in our Christian walk. I am a volunteer at this point. I was a chaplain for a while, till I ended up in another med failure, which I hope and pray, I am at the end of.

A few comments. First regarding the "helpmeet" in the Bible, and what Ezer really means in the OT, including Genesis 2:18. (This is put together from some other posts I have made)

"the word עזר or "ezer" often translated "helpmeet" from the Hebrew in Gen. 2:18 - It appears 21 times in the Old Testament. Two times it is in Genesis for the woman (Gen. 2:18, 20). three times for nations to whom Israel appealed for military aid. (Isa. 30:5, Eze. 12:14, Daniel 11:34),

and SIXTEEN TIMES for God as Israel's helper. (Exodus 18:4, Deut. 33:7, 26, 29, Psalms 20:2, 33:20, 70:5, 89:19 (translated STRENGTH) in NIV; 115:9, 10, 11; 121:1-2; 124:8; 146:5; Hosea 13:9.

So rather than the word being translated Helper, a better translation would be STRONG helper! Ezer is used in a military context, "shield and defense," "better than chariots and horses," "Sentry watch over his people."

Even Eden fits this pattern, because truly the Garden of Eden was a war zone. God commanded the man to keep or guard the garden by using the same military language later used for the cherubim who guarded the garden with a flaming sword. The reason, of course, is that a powerful enemy was already planning an attack.

God created his daughters to be ezer-warriors with our brothers. God deploys the ezer to break the man's aloneness by soldiering with him wholeheartedly and at full strength for God's gracious kingdom. As ezer-warriors, we must be strong, resourceful, alert to the cries of the needy and oppressed. Other verses that support the ezer-warrior image, include Ruth and the Proverbs 31 woman, and all believers are told to "put on the armour of God" in Eph. 6:10-17, not just the men.

Thinking of ezer as a warrior is entirely consistent with how Scripture views us. If you do not understand this concept, that is ok, but don't go telling women they are to give up their calling to fight against the enemy and for God and his justice, or you will be the one sinning against God.

The word ezer IS NOT translated as helpmeet or help meet, it's translated as HELP. "Meet" means - worthy of or suitable for. So in modern English the verse says "I will make him an help, SUITABLE for him. Suitable nor worthy is in the defintion of ezer. I assume "suitable" comes from neged or the translators added it.

Ezer simply means help:

עֵזֶרʻêzer, ay'-zer; from H5826; aid:—help.

God is a helper for sure BUT does God being a helper change the definition of helper?

 

[samuel23]

This kind of a discussion, I believe, tends to bring forth what a person TRUELY believes about God. What we truly believe about God will be made manifest in a situation such as this because you have a clear and in context command from God with TWO examples, so there is no possible way one could miss the meaning. If you TRUELY believe God inspired Paul to write those two places in scripture then you have no choice but to obey them, to do otherwise would be to disobey God. Here they are. 1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but to be under obedience, for it is a shame for women to speak in the church..I write unto you the commands of God. 1Tim let the woman learn in silence with all subjection, but I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man. The very least one can get out of this is that God wants the men to led in church.

 

[Dino246]

This kind of a discussion, I believe, tends to bring forth what a person TRUELY believes about God. ... If you TRUELY believe God inspired Paul to write those two places in scripture then you have no choice but to obey them, to do otherwise would be to disobey God. ... nor to usurp authority over the man. ...

This is a classic logical fallacy, of the "no true Scotsman" variety. It also falls into the "super-duper Christian" garbage bin.

I know that God inspired the Scripture, and I am comfortable with my understanding of these passages, because I recognize that the translated English is not the inspired Greek. Further, "usurp authority" is a much-contested meaning for "authentein" in this context.

 

[jerry2465]

its not about logic at all, scripture is so that EVERYONE regardless of their ability to reason or their intellectual ability has access to the same message as a genius would have. Take the clear message as it is, unless there are other verses that clearly contradict. I am definitely not a person who thinks men should be in charge or that men are superior, but I do recognize what those scriptures say, they are very clear, no need to let my logic try and nullify what God has said (and means)


I didn't intend to post to this thread again, I hope that I'm not sorry for posting my thoughts, some of you all are warriors lol.. makes a person feel sorry that they ever posted to begin with

 

[Dino246]

its not about logic at all, scripture is so that EVERYONE regardless of their ability to reason or their intellectual ability has access to the same message as a genius would have. Take the clear message as it is, unless there are other verses that clearly contradict. I am definitely not a person who thinks men should be in charge or that men are superior, but I do recognize what those scriptures say, they are very clear, no need to let my logic try and nullify what God has said (and means)

Note that I did not challenge Scripture, but rather your comments, as logically fallacious.

 

[jerry2465]

no you didn't, you made that comment toward samuel23, but I'm sure you have the same thoughts toward me, and thats ok

 

[Magenta]

its not about logic at all, scripture is so that EVERYONE regardless of their ability to reason or their intellectual ability has access to the same message as a genius would have. Take the clear message as it is, unless there are other verses that clearly contradict. I am definitely not a person who thinks men should be in charge or that men are superior, but I do recognize what those scriptures say, they are very clear, no need to let my logic try and nullify what God has said (and means)


I didn't intend to post to this thread again, I hope that I'm not sorry for posting my thoughts, some of you all are warriors lol.. makes a person feel sorry that they ever posted to begin with

Good morning Jerry. That is the thing though, because there are clearly many verses that contradict, straight from the pen of Paul no less. There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus. We are no longer under the law. Yes, the sword of Truth cuts deep but it goes both ways. God bless you as you move through the days of your life

 

[Magenta]

I've had some women teach me some awesome stuff in the church, should I just forget it all?

I am sorry to inform you, but you now qualify for the forced frontal lobotomy program. Please take a number and await your turn. We will get to you as soon as possible As you can see from the diagram below, it is a fairly simple and also painless procedure. When it is over, you will have no memory of all those things those apostate women taught you. Thank God! Your salvation will henceforth be assured.

 

[KJV1611]

"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)

Further, the word "silent" or ἡσυχίᾳ in this verse, is the same word the rabbis used when teacher their students. They were not allowed to teach, and were to remain silent. In other words, Paul is following the rabbinic tradition, and saying the women are not ready to teach, and they need to stop domineering men.

Silent in the context of the rabbis means "they were not allowed to teach and were to remain SILENT". I don't understand the point here, the rabbis were using silent the same way Paul was... not speaking. Even if Paul was following rabbinic tradition he is still telling them to keep quite, he's not telling them that they are not ready to teach..... where does not ready to teach come from ? It doesn't come from ἡσυχίᾳ even in the rabbinical tradition sense of the word.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

How do you get wild preistesses out of "A WOMAN"? If I had done something like that about the KJV you would jump all over me lol. The context is CLEARLY a woman and not wild preistesses saved or unsaved.

 

[breno785au]

I am sorry to inform you, but you now qualify for the forced frontal lobotomy program. Please take a number and await your turn. We will get to you as soon as possible As you can see from the diagram below, it is a fairly simple and also painless procedure. When it is over, you will have no memory of all those things those apostate women taught you. Thank God! Your salvation will henceforth be assured.

Lol so long as it is a male doing the surgery...

 

[hornetguy]

Very few churches have a single leader as a pastor these days as there are always checks and balances within most denominations whether they be Congregationalist style or Presbytery style. Paul definitely taught that there needs to be leadership in a church. He himself was the leader of all the Gentiles and he acknowledged that several times.
Greek word for pastor is off of Shepherd and there is only one Shepherd for flock or if it's a very large flock there may be a number of shepherds but there was always one head Shepherd. The hierarchy that Paul teaches about in Timothy also supports God's plan that there be an ultimate level of accountability in any relationship whether it be a family one or a church one.
There is much more president and the Bible for leadership than there is for no leadership and much more precedent for having a single leader then a group of leaders.

Please show me a scripture that indicates that the assemblies should have ONE leader, or "head pastor/elder/overseer"....

I have never seen a scripture that indicates that.

 

[hornetguy]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have a scriptural definition for the office of "pastor" ?

 

[John146]

Good morning Jerry. That is the thing though, because there are clearly many verses that contradict, straight from the pen of Paul no less. There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus. We are no longer under the law. Yes, the sword of Truth cuts deep but it goes both ways. God bless you as you move through the days of your life

Using that logic, there would be no such thing as homosexual activity with the body of Christ since there is neither male nor female. Gender does not matter. Do you see how absurd that sounds? As Christ is the head of the church, His bride, so is the husband(male) head over his wife(female).

1 Timothy 3
[SUP]4 [/SUP]One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;[SUP]5 [/SUP](For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Is 1 Timothy 3 concerning the leader of the church, the local body of Christ? What is a bishop?

 

[jerry2465]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have a scriptural definition for the office of "pastor" ?

nope, but a "pastor" in the sense that churches use would definitely not be a person who would keep silent as the scriptures say.

And no not 1 leader in a congregation. Christ is head of the church, Elders (plural) govern each congregation of the church.