Women will be saved through Childbearing, if

[Noose]

well, God does not change no matter how much small men try to make it so

This statement is very true. God gave man authority over the woman and it shall not change:

Gen 2:
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adame no suitable helper was found.

21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribsf and closed up the area with flesh. 22And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him. 23And the man said:

“This is now bone of my bones

and flesh of my flesh;

she shall be called ‘woman,’

for out of man she was taken.”

24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.g

Basically the role (name/authority) of a woman was issued by man while that of the man was issued by God.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This statement is very true. God gave man authority over the woman and it shall not change:

you agree that God does not change

so is this an error in scripture?

Judges 4

4 And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord, when Ehud was dead.

2 And the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles.

3 And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.

4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Deborah was a prophetess and a judge of Israel which meant men were under her. She led men. They respected her judgement and her words from God.

how does that fit in with your concept of women not ever being allowed to talk or have authority over men?


let's have a proper answer here and not a verse from scripture that does not address the FACT that a WOMAN had authority and was a prophetess.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This statement is very true. God gave man authority over the woman and it shall not change:

Gen 2:
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adame no suitable helper was found.

21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribsf and closed up the area with flesh. 22And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him. 23And the man said:

“This is now bone of my bones

and flesh of my flesh;

she shall be called ‘woman,’

for out of man she was taken.”

24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.g

Basically the role (name/authority) of a woman was issued by man while that of the man was issued by God.

so if woman was made from the first man, why did God do this?

you say the reason yourself...they shall become one flesh

so if your wife is to be FULLY submissive, what does that mean for you?

 

[Dino246]

Wives to their husband is just like women to men (1 Tim 2)- same issue. Men have authority over women not because of anything but God's will according to creation as we see in Genesis.

Fallacy: circular reasoning.

 

[Dino246]

It might be a terrible translation but the meaning is not lost because from Paul's argument about man being created before the woman, makes it about authority and nothing else.

1 Tim 2:13For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

1 Cor 11: 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Above is Paul's argument

A text without a context is a pretext. Adam's prior creation does not confer authority. 1 Timothy 2 does not address "authority" in the Greek at all, so making a claim that it supports authority of men over women is simply baseless.

 

[Noose]

A text without a context is a pretext. Adam's prior creation does not confer authority. 1 Timothy 2 does not address "authority" in the Greek at all, so making a claim that it supports authority of men over women is simply baseless.

I'm not Greek and it is not my fault, neither do the people in Greece confer with you.

 

[Noose]

Fallacy: circular reasoning.

Umpteenth time, still doesn't make you right, it shows you are out of arguments rather.

 

[Noose]

so if woman was made from the first man, why did God do this?

you say the reason yourself...they shall become one flesh

so if your wife is to be FULLY submissive, what does that mean for you?

You still miss the point in Genesis.
The title man and woman is an authority, a role. a responsibility.

God gave the name (authority/role) MAN and among the responsibilities of man was to give every other creature their role/authority/name (as much as the bible uses the word name, it means authority). So, we see Adam give the name (authority) WOMAN. So, this is the hierarchy- God- Man - woman.

the specific names Adam and Eve probably wwas from God, but the role (authority) woman came from Adam because he was given dominion to give other authorities (names).

 

[Noose]

you agree that God does not change

so is this an error in scripture?

Judges 4

4 And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord, when Ehud was dead.

2 And the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles.

3 And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.

4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Deborah was a prophetess and a judge of Israel which meant men were under her. She led men. They respected her judgement and her words from God.

how does that fit in with your concept of women not ever being allowed to talk or have authority over men?


let's have a proper answer here and not a verse from scripture that does not address the FACT that a WOMAN had authority and was a prophetess.

Prophets or prophesy doesn't demand respect, it is just a message from God to the people which they can either decide to do and be blessed or disobey and be cursed and sometime it involved people from another generation.

When we talk of authorities, we are talking of roles that demand respect, whose structure entails one person being superior and another, subordinate. For example; A father is greater than the son not because of anything but because of the roles as established by God. That fathership is a role, and it is superior because of the subordinate role of sonship, without the sonship, the fathership is also lost in the air.

The role of a prophet does not demand subordinates at all, but a teacher is a teacher because he/she teaches the students who are subordinates to the teacher.

Passing judgement to those that do wrong also doesn't demand one being superior to pass judgement to one who is a subordinate, it is just work. A son can judge the father, doesn't mean the son is superior to the father and it also doesn't mean that the son is now the father. But a student can not teach the teacher and a son can not become the father to his father.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Prophets or prophesy doesn't demand respect, it is just a message from God to the people which they can either decide to do and be blessed or disobey and be cursed and sometime it involved people from another generation.

When we talk of authorities, we are talking of roles that demand respect, whose structure entails one person being superior and another, subordinate. For example; A father is greater than the son not because of anything but because of the roles as established by God. That fathership is a role, and it is superior because of the subordinate role of sonship, without the sonship, the fathership is also lost in the air.

The role of a prophet does not demand subordinates at all, but a teacher is a teacher because he/she teaches the students who are subordinates to the teacher.

Passing judgement to those that do wrong also doesn't demand one being superior to pass judgement to one who is a subordinate, it is just work. A son can judge the father, doesn't mean the son is superior to the father and it also doesn't mean that the son is now the father. But a student can not teach the teacher and a son can not become the father to his father.

simply an utter failure to address my post and a whole lotta word salad with some unappetizing dressing

the woman was a judge and I guess she still judges, cause she shows you up to be in error

some people refuse to learn and yet demand others listen to them

you are simply just making things up here...no scripture to backup your rambling

quelle surprise

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You still miss the point in Genesis.
The title man and woman is an authority, a role. a responsibility.

God gave the name (authority/role) MAN and among the responsibilities of man was to give every other creature their role/authority/name (as much as the bible uses the word name, it means authority). So, we see Adam give the name (authority) WOMAN. So, this is the hierarchy- God- Man - woman.

the specific names Adam and Eve probably wwas from God, but the role (authority) woman came from Adam because he was given dominion to give other authorities (names).

no dude. you are living in the past here

we are all one in Christ Jesus

you leave out the fact that Christ is head over all...and you do that over and over and over ad infinitum

I would say more, but I don't want to get personal regarding your relationship with your wife, whom it seems, you must silence repeatedly...which in turn will fester into rebellion

this is what happens when people make up their own interpretations of scripture. it does not work

you seem to identify with the first Adam rather than the last Adam

I will leave you to it

 

[Noose]

simply an utter failure to address my post and a whole lotta word salad with some unappetizing dressing

the woman was a judge and I guess she still judges, cause she shows you up to be in error

some people refuse to learn and yet demand others listen to them

you are simply just making things up here...no scripture to backup your rambling

quelle surprise

Sure she was a judge, does that cancel what Paul plainly said? Nope.
Passing judgement on people has nothing to do with having authority over them and more so if they are wrong doers.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Sure she was a judge, does that cancel what Paul plainly said? Nope.
Passing judgement on people has nothing to do with having authority over them and more so if they are wrong doers.

as I said, I will leave you to your personal interpretations

 

[Noose]

no dude. you are living in the past here

we are all one in Christ Jesus

you leave out the fact that Christ is head over all...and you do that over and over and over ad infinitum

I would say more, but I don't want to get personal regarding your relationship with your wife, whom it seems, you must silence repeatedly...which in turn will fester into rebellion

this is what happens when people make up their own interpretations of scripture. it does not work

you seem to identify with the first Adam rather than the last Adam

I will leave you to it

Being submissive has nothing to do with silencing the other party. A son being submissive to the father has nothing to do with the father silencing the son. It is just natural authority that can not be done away with - a father/son is just like a teacher/ student which is just like a man/woman. You are not going to change that.

Adam gave Eve her role and title just like he did every other creature- shows his authority. God gave Adam his title/role - so there's no way Adam is an equal to God.

 

[Dino246]

I'm not Greek and it is not my fault, neither do the people in Greece confer with you.

Irrelevant on both counts. The NT was written in Greek, not English.

Umpteenth time, still doesn't make you right, it shows you are out of arguments rather.

I didnt' claim that it makes me right. Rather, it makes your argument invalid. As to your conclusion, you need to do more homework on logic!

 

[John146]

"Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control" (1Timothy2:15)

In the Hebrew Language it can take up to four pen strokes to make one letter. There are four different sections to this passage. There are also four conditions for the women that they continue in faith, love, holiness w/ self control. This we can understand so we are without excuse. Yet what does this mean that a women is saved "through" childbearing? Lets go back to the beginning in Genesis:

To the serpent He said: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” " To the woman He said: “I will sharply increase your pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” (Genesis3:16)

Ok, we are already going into sensory overload with this passage. Also we have what looks like two different conversations here. One with the serpent and one with the women. Yet there is a connection here between HER SEED, CHILDBIRTH & SAVED. In Genesis 38:28 we read about a SCARLET THREAD. Also we read about a Scarlet Thread in the story of Rehab the Prostitute. This Scarlet thread is the Blood Line of Jesus. If people do not read the begets in the Bible they are not going to understand this. The Bible follows the Blood line from Eve to Mary through David. We are going to see tragedy along the way. Rehab was a prostitute. Solomon was the product of adultery between David and Bathsheba after their first child died. We see prostitution and adultery in the bloodline of Jesus.

To try to make this simple Adam & Eve are the Patriarch and Matriarch of Jesus. Eve was saved and redeemed though the child she had. Women are saved though child bearing and Mary was honored to be the women that gave birth to Jesus our saviour. I wonder why Paul could not maintain some degree of purity in teaching this to Timothy. Why does he have to say and because of this women can not pastor a church?

The word of God is simple and the Word of God is infinite. We could go on and on and write many books about the different aspects of this passage. In fact we are told that: "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." (John21:25) Yet if we understand something we should be able to explain this in a way so simple a child can understand.

"Saved in childbearing" - saved from what? The context implies saved from deception. Eve was deceived and in the transgression. It is amazing how much wiser a woman gets after she has had children. But the condition is if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. A woman who forgets those things but starts living worldly is opening herself up to being deceived.

3 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 

[Noose]

Irrelevant on both counts. The NT was written in Greek, not English.

My arguments is from an English translation so my understanding is based on that English translation in which Paul says men have authority over women because Adam was created first and Eve came from Adam.

Are you saying that the Greek scripture says something different other than Man having authority over the woman because man was created first? What exactly does the Greek scripture say according to you? can you qoute the exact words and their English translation?

I didnt' claim that it makes me right. Rather, it makes your argument invalid. As to your conclusion, you need to do more homework on logic!

If you are not claiming to be right you can not also claim someone else is wrong because you can not know.

 

[Dino246]

My arguments is from an English translation so my understanding is based on that English translation in which Paul says men have authority over women because Adam was created first and Eve came from Adam.

Yes, so it is inherently limited. Are you willing to live your Christian life and teach others based on understanding that you know to be limited?

Are you saying that the Greek scripture says something different other than Man having authority over the woman because man was created first?

Yes.

If you are not claiming to be right you can not also claim someone else is wrong because you can not know.

I can know you are wrong, without knowing the right answer. If you say, "Joe is with you," I can truthfully say, "You are wrong" and not know where Joe is. That aside, I was not saying (in this specific case) that you are wrong, but rather that your argument is fallacious and therefore invalid. That means something different.

 

[JohnR7]

"Saved in childbearing" - saved from what?

Actually what this means that Jesus is a descendant of Adam and Eve and though Jesus Adam, Eve and their descendants would be saved. This was part of the curse that God put upon the snake that deceived Eve: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will crush your head, and you will strike His heel." Of course the scriptures are understood on many levels. Through Christ we are saved from death, hell and the grave. I think this means women will be kept save in Child bearing if they "continue in faith, love, holiness w/ self control."

 

[JohnR7]

Are you willing to live your Christian life and teach others based on understanding that you know to be limited?

We are not limited. We have available to us all wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Although we keep things simple and do not try to complicate the issues.