There are churches with very skewed emphasis on tongues who go out on a limb to make theological points about it. But in my experience, a church that is open to speaking in tongues is much, much, more likely to be open to the gift of prophecy, in the Biblical sense of the word, operating in the church. I'm not talking about redefining Bible teaching as 'prophesying.' Paul treats teaching and prophecy as two separate gifts.
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I have not suggested that on can become saved by knowledge only. The bible says that the faith we need to be saved come from hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit takes the hearing of the word of God and produces conviction of sin righteousness and judgment. This is necessary and a part of Gods grace through which He saves us. It is not the knowledge which was a gift of the Holy Spirit at the time the church was being founded and established. You are interjecting dissimilar issues into the discussion.
No one denies the Holy Spirit and the ministry He has in the believers heart. What is at issue here is the Holy Spirit ministering through tongues, prophecy and knowledge today? According to 1 Cor 13:8 the answer is no.
I have been very specific that there are only three gifts that have ended.
Then tell me about it.
Relevance?
Huh? Where did this come from?
Again relevance?
Yet in the next chapter it says that tongues will end.
Nope that is incorrect.
Not really just need to see if there is any common ground from which we can discuss the matter in an intelligent fashion.
Totally baseless assumption on your part. Gods truth is gods truth and applies to all equally.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Again, the text does that say that. It says that that which is in part will cease, not that it has ceased. I Corinthians 1:7 tells us 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Let scripture interpret scripture.
The text we are talking about does say having and receiving. It says 'know fully.' If we know doctrine fully, we aren't going to have these different opinions, and not just about this subject. If the perfect came we would know fully.
Wow. You really need to read your Bible and think through your beliefs. I suppose Paul could have been a child in the crowd at Pentecost at around 37 or 38 AD or whenever it was outside the Upper room. But there is no evidence that he was there, and it's rather unlikely.
You don't think God is doing something sovereign in Israel returning to the land?
What concerns me is how much of your doctrine that you are so certain about is based on pure speculation. Revelation does not say that the 144,000 will be preachers or preach to Israel. That's a dispensational theory, but whether it's true or not, the Bible doesn't say. It's speculation. Israel could repent when they mourn for Jesus when they see Him at His second coming. That's another theory, but one with a bit more meat to it.
The text we are talking about does say having and receiving. It says 'know fully.' If we know doctrine fully, we aren't going to have these different opinions, and not just about this subject. If the perfect came we would know fully.
Wow. You really need to read your Bible and think through your beliefs. I suppose Paul could have been a child in the crowd at Pentecost at around 37 or 38 AD or whenever it was outside the Upper room. But there is no evidence that he was there, and it's rather unlikely.
You don't think God is doing something sovereign in Israel returning to the land?
What concerns me is how much of your doctrine that you are so certain about is based on pure speculation. Revelation does not say that the 144,000 will be preachers or preach to Israel. That's a dispensational theory, but whether it's true or not, the Bible doesn't say. It's speculation. Israel could repent when they mourn for Jesus when they see Him at His second coming. That's another theory, but one with a bit more meat to it.
Paul prayed for saints to have the Spirit of revelation. Revelation is an ongoing thing because no man can know the Father but the Son, and He to Whom the Son reveals Him. No one gets saved without revelation.
The faith has already been revealed to the saints. New doctrines aren't being added to it. But that's not the only kind of revelation.
The faith has already been revealed to the saints. New doctrines aren't being added to it. But that's not the only kind of revelation.
R
Oh family. My blessed family in Christ. My heart wells in love for you all.
You can speak in tongues on your own at any time. When you wake up in the morning is a good time. On your walk to work. While on your lunch break. When walking home or when in your room last thing at night.
You don't need someone there to interpret it. God knows what you are saying perfectly. And He smiles when you do. He sends His Holy Spirit to indwell you. To edify your soul in ways you cannot even fathom.
Speaking in tongues at church is different and DOES require one to interpret it. But how do they "interpret" it if they don't understand what was said? Oh ye of little faith!! Don't you know that the Holy Spirit speaks through that person??
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Remember, even if you get your preaching terribly wrong, God still loves you for it. I still love you for it.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
God bless you.
God bless all of you.
You can speak in tongues on your own at any time. When you wake up in the morning is a good time. On your walk to work. While on your lunch break. When walking home or when in your room last thing at night.
You don't need someone there to interpret it. God knows what you are saying perfectly. And He smiles when you do. He sends His Holy Spirit to indwell you. To edify your soul in ways you cannot even fathom.
Speaking in tongues at church is different and DOES require one to interpret it. But how do they "interpret" it if they don't understand what was said? Oh ye of little faith!! Don't you know that the Holy Spirit speaks through that person??
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Remember, even if you get your preaching terribly wrong, God still loves you for it. I still love you for it.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
God bless you.
God bless all of you.
K
Oh family. My blessed family in Christ. My heart wells in love for you all.
You can speak in tongues on your own at any time. When you wake up in the morning is a good time. On your walk to work. While on your lunch break. When walking home or when in your room last thing at night.
You don't need someone there to interpret it. God knows what you are saying perfectly. And He smiles when you do. He sends His Holy Spirit to indwell you. To edify your soul in ways you cannot even fathom.
Speaking in tongues at church is different and DOES require one to interpret it. But how do they "interpret" it if they don't understand what was said? Oh ye of little faith!! Don't you know that the Holy Spirit speaks through that person??
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Remember, even if you get your preaching terribly wrong, God still loves you for it. I still love you for it.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
God bless you.
God bless all of you.
You can speak in tongues on your own at any time. When you wake up in the morning is a good time. On your walk to work. While on your lunch break. When walking home or when in your room last thing at night.
You don't need someone there to interpret it. God knows what you are saying perfectly. And He smiles when you do. He sends His Holy Spirit to indwell you. To edify your soul in ways you cannot even fathom.
Speaking in tongues at church is different and DOES require one to interpret it. But how do they "interpret" it if they don't understand what was said? Oh ye of little faith!! Don't you know that the Holy Spirit speaks through that person??
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Remember, even if you get your preaching terribly wrong, God still loves you for it. I still love you for it.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
God bless you.
God bless all of you.
Yes I was talking about tongues in a church setting.Thanks for pointing that out.
Still going around in circles. Scripture says that when the perfect is come they end. The perfect has come centuries ago.
We do know just some will not receive that which is revealed.
I disagree that Paul was a child at the time of Pentecost but that is not really the crux of the issue.
I'm quite certain that when God moves and Israel is restored there will be no doubt that it was God moving to restore Israel to the land. All doubt will be erased. It will be complete not partial restoration.
You cannot receive it because it would upset too much of your preconceived notions about what is going on at the end of the age.
What do you suppose the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes are going to do in the end of the age? Sell tickets to a pancake dinner? Weather you believe in dispensational theories or not God has moved in the history of man to shape the direction of man toward a specific end.
The revelation has been given you just are not seeing it.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
What do you suppose the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes are going to do in the end of the age? Sell tickets to a pancake dinner? Weather you believe in dispensational theories or not God has moved in the history of man to shape the direction of man toward a specific end.
The revelation has been given you just are not seeing it.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
E
You insinuated I told you that you did not have the Holy Spirit and now you are leaving breadcrumbs going off the highway again.
Do you think that faith comes from yourself? If so, kindly indicate the scripture that would bear witness...if not, that acknowledge that even faith to believe has come from God THROUGH the Holy Spirit
OK...sorry...I need a translator for this one.....
No you are. Your turn......
No one denies the Holy Spirit in a believers heart? So like its' OK to deny all the rest?...like you are doing...? That famous verse in I Cor 13 says no such thing. It has been burdened with so called proof of cessation for deniers like yourself since I was old enough to understand...I didn't believe that story then and I don't believe it now. Probably because a person would have to WANT to believe the Holy Spirit is semi-retired
Does God know?
I just don't have time for the rest of your one liners right now...but I believe you have expressed your denial of the Holy Spirit operating in a believer's life for one and all to read and agree or disagree.
At the end of the day, you do realize that no matter how long you hold your breath and deny the operating of 3, 2 or 1 spiritual gift, the Holy Spirit will continue to give those gifts as God sees fit and as sincere believers ask.
I find it cowardly to hint that that those who speak in tongues do so by a demon spirit.
However, to be fair, I do think there is something of the demonic in that statement.
Do you think that faith comes from yourself? If so, kindly indicate the scripture that would bear witness...if not, that acknowledge that even faith to believe has come from God THROUGH the Holy Spirit
OK...sorry...I need a translator for this one.....
No you are. Your turn......
No one denies the Holy Spirit in a believers heart? So like its' OK to deny all the rest?...like you are doing...? That famous verse in I Cor 13 says no such thing. It has been burdened with so called proof of cessation for deniers like yourself since I was old enough to understand...I didn't believe that story then and I don't believe it now. Probably because a person would have to WANT to believe the Holy Spirit is semi-retired
Does God know?
I just don't have time for the rest of your one liners right now...but I believe you have expressed your denial of the Holy Spirit operating in a believer's life for one and all to read and agree or disagree.
At the end of the day, you do realize that no matter how long you hold your breath and deny the operating of 3, 2 or 1 spiritual gift, the Holy Spirit will continue to give those gifts as God sees fit and as sincere believers ask.
I find it cowardly to hint that that those who speak in tongues do so by a demon spirit.
However, to be fair, I do think there is something of the demonic in that statement.
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The Holy Spirit is always obedient to the word of God. I understand your unbelief. You choose not to believe.
God does not give that which He has said He is not going to give again until the end of the age. These sign gifts are promised not to Gentiles but to Israel.
I think if prudent to seek another answer before accepting that one.
Whatever.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
R
Roger why be arrogant to people? "Whatever". Sure, have a difference of opinion, but don't be rude just for the sake of being rude?
So Roger, you are saying that I and other people can't and don't speak in tongues? Even when and though they do. You are still denying it and saying that it's a "familiar spirit"?
And by "familiar spirit" you mean; A familiar spirit is a demon that is summoned by a medium, with the intention that the spirit summoned will obey his or her commands. Often, familiar spirits are believed to be the spirits of people who have died (Duet. 18:11). Yes?
Roger dear brother, God HAS given me this gift. I am the OP and my testimonial to you is true. I told you how I came to speak in tongues. I told you that I was not able to do it before. I used to try but simply could not do it! It was only when I was prayed over and had the Holy Spirit bless me with it was I able to do it. Within that moment I literally burst out tears of joy speaking incomprehensible words I couldn't understand but was still able to say! I remember the experience very clearly even though it was many years ago in my early teens. This took place in a happy and loving Christian home.
I was not able to do so before this experience, as hard as I tried I just could not do it. It was only when the gift was given to me I was able to do it. It was a turning point in my life and it really helped me to grow up and turn into a man. Such a gift. It was what I needed to help me become more mature and confident in Christ.
I know you like to quote I Cor 13 and say that the gift of tongues is no longer given to men. But that is not exactly what that says. It is saying that love will always conquer and that includes you too.
Say what you will. It's a beautiful amazing thing. It brings praise and glory to God. It strengthens and encourages the believer. It brings peace and wellbeing to the soul. It makes God happy and it makes the person doing it happy. Why would you want to say anything other than that about it?
So Roger, you are saying that I and other people can't and don't speak in tongues? Even when and though they do. You are still denying it and saying that it's a "familiar spirit"?
And by "familiar spirit" you mean; A familiar spirit is a demon that is summoned by a medium, with the intention that the spirit summoned will obey his or her commands. Often, familiar spirits are believed to be the spirits of people who have died (Duet. 18:11). Yes?
Roger dear brother, God HAS given me this gift. I am the OP and my testimonial to you is true. I told you how I came to speak in tongues. I told you that I was not able to do it before. I used to try but simply could not do it! It was only when I was prayed over and had the Holy Spirit bless me with it was I able to do it. Within that moment I literally burst out tears of joy speaking incomprehensible words I couldn't understand but was still able to say! I remember the experience very clearly even though it was many years ago in my early teens. This took place in a happy and loving Christian home.
I was not able to do so before this experience, as hard as I tried I just could not do it. It was only when the gift was given to me I was able to do it. It was a turning point in my life and it really helped me to grow up and turn into a man. Such a gift. It was what I needed to help me become more mature and confident in Christ.
I know you like to quote I Cor 13 and say that the gift of tongues is no longer given to men. But that is not exactly what that says. It is saying that love will always conquer and that includes you too.
Say what you will. It's a beautiful amazing thing. It brings praise and glory to God. It strengthens and encourages the believer. It brings peace and wellbeing to the soul. It makes God happy and it makes the person doing it happy. Why would you want to say anything other than that about it?
Wow. This is very presumptuous of you. Why would you try to put words in God's mouth? Where did God say He wasn't going to give these gifts again until the end of the age? Show one verse of scripture to support this theory. It's a serious thing to add to God's word.
Peter interprets Joel and comment that the gift of the Spirit also for those who are afar off. Acts 10 shows that Gentiles also spoke in tongues and that they received the Holy Ghost as Peter did at the beginning.
I Corinthians 12 starts off addressing readers that used to be led about by dumb idols and in this context, says that to one is given one gift, and to another another gift by the same spirit and includes a list of 9 spiritual gifts, many of which you would likely call 'sign gifts.' Nowhere does the Bible say that they are only for the Jews. If Jews seeks signs, that doesn't mean that signs aren't also for Gentiles. God chose to have signs done among Gentiles as well.
Peter interprets Joel and comment that the gift of the Spirit also for those who are afar off. Acts 10 shows that Gentiles also spoke in tongues and that they received the Holy Ghost as Peter did at the beginning.
I Corinthians 12 starts off addressing readers that used to be led about by dumb idols and in this context, says that to one is given one gift, and to another another gift by the same spirit and includes a list of 9 spiritual gifts, many of which you would likely call 'sign gifts.' Nowhere does the Bible say that they are only for the Jews. If Jews seeks signs, that doesn't mean that signs aren't also for Gentiles. God chose to have signs done among Gentiles as well.
NOt everything is clear cut. I speak in tongues but in private, I could of course stand up in church and do this, or do it "to myslef" but out loud so other people hear, this of course is wrong, but it does not mean I have a demonic spirit influencing me to do it.
Saying people who speak in tongues in a church are under a spirit other than Holy SPirit is therefore not a good accusation to make. There are a lot of people who just make up rules and do what they like, including pastors and evangelists, some encourage the congregation to do this as a self gratification and showmanship thing as well.
AS Paul wrote to the churches to point out their errors in how they were conducting themselves, so it continues today. Someone standing up in Church speaking in tongue will do so if prompted by Holy Spirit, this happens several times a year in my church and someone gives an interpretation, they are messages and instructions addressed to the church. This is then reviewed and prayed over by the leadership. This is how it should be used.
Saying people who speak in tongues in a church are under a spirit other than Holy SPirit is therefore not a good accusation to make. There are a lot of people who just make up rules and do what they like, including pastors and evangelists, some encourage the congregation to do this as a self gratification and showmanship thing as well.
AS Paul wrote to the churches to point out their errors in how they were conducting themselves, so it continues today. Someone standing up in Church speaking in tongue will do so if prompted by Holy Spirit, this happens several times a year in my church and someone gives an interpretation, they are messages and instructions addressed to the church. This is then reviewed and prayed over by the leadership. This is how it should be used.
Roger why be arrogant to people? "Whatever". Sure, have a difference of opinion, but don't be rude just for the sake of being rude?
So Roger, you are saying that I and other people can't and don't speak in tongues? Even when and though they do. You are still denying it and saying that it's a "familiar spirit"?
And by "familiar spirit" you mean; A familiar spirit is a demon that is summoned by a medium, with the intention that the spirit summoned will obey his or her commands. Often, familiar spirits are believed to be the spirits of people who have died (Duet. 18:11). Yes?
Roger dear brother, God HAS given me this gift. I am the OP and my testimonial to you is true. I told you how I came to speak in tongues. I told you that I was not able to do it before. I used to try but simply could not do it! It was only when I was prayed over and had the Holy Spirit bless me with it was I able to do it. Within that moment I literally burst out tears of joy speaking incomprehensible words I couldn't understand but was still able to say! I remember the experience very clearly even though it was many years ago in my early teens. This took place in a happy and loving Christian home.
I was not able to do so before this experience, as hard as I tried I just could not do it. It was only when the gift was given to me I was able to do it. It was a turning point in my life and it really helped me to grow up and turn into a man. Such a gift. It was what I needed to help me become more mature and confident in Christ.
I know you like to quote I Cor 13 and say that the gift of tongues is no longer given to men. But that is not exactly what that says. It is saying that love will always conquer and that includes you too.
Say what you will. It's a beautiful amazing thing. It brings praise and glory to God. It strengthens and encourages the believer. It brings peace and wellbeing to the soul. It makes God happy and it makes the person doing it happy. Why would you want to say anything other than that about it?
So Roger, you are saying that I and other people can't and don't speak in tongues? Even when and though they do. You are still denying it and saying that it's a "familiar spirit"?
And by "familiar spirit" you mean; A familiar spirit is a demon that is summoned by a medium, with the intention that the spirit summoned will obey his or her commands. Often, familiar spirits are believed to be the spirits of people who have died (Duet. 18:11). Yes?
Roger dear brother, God HAS given me this gift. I am the OP and my testimonial to you is true. I told you how I came to speak in tongues. I told you that I was not able to do it before. I used to try but simply could not do it! It was only when I was prayed over and had the Holy Spirit bless me with it was I able to do it. Within that moment I literally burst out tears of joy speaking incomprehensible words I couldn't understand but was still able to say! I remember the experience very clearly even though it was many years ago in my early teens. This took place in a happy and loving Christian home.
I was not able to do so before this experience, as hard as I tried I just could not do it. It was only when the gift was given to me I was able to do it. It was a turning point in my life and it really helped me to grow up and turn into a man. Such a gift. It was what I needed to help me become more mature and confident in Christ.
I know you like to quote I Cor 13 and say that the gift of tongues is no longer given to men. But that is not exactly what that says. It is saying that love will always conquer and that includes you too.
Say what you will. It's a beautiful amazing thing. It brings praise and glory to God. It strengthens and encourages the believer. It brings peace and wellbeing to the soul. It makes God happy and it makes the person doing it happy. Why would you want to say anything other than that about it?
Yahweh Shalom
It would be if I were but I'm just reading what God has written.
Gentiles spoke tongues so the Jews would see that it was the same Spirit poured out to them that was poured out to the Jews at Pentecost. Joel said that the Lord's Spirit would be poured out on all flesh but that those who dreamed and prophesied would be of Israel.
The diversity in the body which is the church is not in question nor are the diversities of the gifts the members in the body have to use for Gods glory. The issue is that three specific gifts have ended with the completion of the NT canon.
A sect within the body has revived these gifts and we see the evidence of abuse. Do we attribute this to God or man? My problem is that there is no real scriptural support for tongues today and the evidences in the body where they are present do not testify of Gods purity and holiness. Is this sect part of the body or is it something else?
Are you not coming behind if you are seeking that which cannot be obtained?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The diversity in the body which is the church is not in question nor are the diversities of the gifts the members in the body have to use for Gods glory. The issue is that three specific gifts have ended with the completion of the NT canon.
A sect within the body has revived these gifts and we see the evidence of abuse. Do we attribute this to God or man? My problem is that there is no real scriptural support for tongues today and the evidences in the body where they are present do not testify of Gods purity and holiness. Is this sect part of the body or is it something else?
Are you not coming behind if you are seeking that which cannot be obtained?
For the cause of Christ
Roger