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Excellent point of discussion, Zavok.
I live in an area in which there are two well-known towns... one is supposedly the "preppy, rich" town, and the other is marked "the ghetto."
There are everyday stories in the local newspaper about people selling their children for drugs, and as if this wasn't appalling enough, there have been many instances of people, and yes, mothers, prostituting their babies (literally infants and toddlers--even typing such a thing provokes a personal urge to want to vomit) out or even offering to sell them outright to sustain their own addictions.
In cases such as this, I say, get them out of those situations as soon as possible.
The man I married had long scars down his back from a belt buckle when he was five years old; his sister had marks on her forehead from an iron, and one of my ex's most prominent teenage memories was being woken up in the middle of the night by his brother in order to save their youngest sister from an especially severe (but routine) beating.
Again, and this is just an opinion... I wish they would have been removed from the household long before the abuse ever got to that point.
If that would have been the case, he and I might still be married today, as I consider the loss of our marriage the lowest point in my life.
I live in an area in which there are two well-known towns... one is supposedly the "preppy, rich" town, and the other is marked "the ghetto."
There are everyday stories in the local newspaper about people selling their children for drugs, and as if this wasn't appalling enough, there have been many instances of people, and yes, mothers, prostituting their babies (literally infants and toddlers--even typing such a thing provokes a personal urge to want to vomit) out or even offering to sell them outright to sustain their own addictions.
In cases such as this, I say, get them out of those situations as soon as possible.
The man I married had long scars down his back from a belt buckle when he was five years old; his sister had marks on her forehead from an iron, and one of my ex's most prominent teenage memories was being woken up in the middle of the night by his brother in order to save their youngest sister from an especially severe (but routine) beating.
Again, and this is just an opinion... I wish they would have been removed from the household long before the abuse ever got to that point.
If that would have been the case, he and I might still be married today, as I consider the loss of our marriage the lowest point in my life.
If the Mother comes to Christ and turns her life around, is it right that she has to pay for her past sins with a lifetime without her child? You promote taking the child away and you don't speak a word about helping the mother at all.
People have problems you know. These mothers may have been molested by their parents and who knows what else. Let's think of them too.
Quest
People have problems you know. These mothers may have been molested by their parents and who knows what else. Let's think of them too.
Quest
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These are all very terrible things that you mention seoulsearch, and these are all things that cannot be allowed to happen to children.
But there are a great many crimes being perpetrated against Birthmothers as well that are just as horrible. Please allow me to give some examples from http://www.exiledmothers.com/
These are just a few of the stories that you can read:
Personal Adoption Stories
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Vicki Miller: "THE DAY I DIED" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karen WB: "The maternity home was a shame-filled prison"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ely: "The doctor screamed at the nurse to take the baby away from me" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bonnie P.: "Miss Parr, your baby has already been taken to be placed for adoption."
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karen D: "I asked to see her and was told as soon as I signed the papers I could" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Catherine: "It was the worst place to be if you were an "unwed mother" in labour ... the [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]nurse slashed my private parts several times with a razor"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lina Eve: "I asked why I was not allowed to hold my baby. I was told the baby was up for adoption. But I hadn't signed anything!"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Kathy: "They were speedily rushing to take my son away .... I was dying with pain for the yearning to hold him"[/FONT]
But there are a great many crimes being perpetrated against Birthmothers as well that are just as horrible. Please allow me to give some examples from http://www.exiledmothers.com/
These are just a few of the stories that you can read:
Personal Adoption Stories
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Vicki Miller: "THE DAY I DIED" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karen WB: "The maternity home was a shame-filled prison"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ely: "The doctor screamed at the nurse to take the baby away from me" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bonnie P.: "Miss Parr, your baby has already been taken to be placed for adoption."
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karen D: "I asked to see her and was told as soon as I signed the papers I could" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Catherine: "It was the worst place to be if you were an "unwed mother" in labour ... the [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]nurse slashed my private parts several times with a razor"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lina Eve: "I asked why I was not allowed to hold my baby. I was told the baby was up for adoption. But I hadn't signed anything!"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Kathy: "They were speedily rushing to take my son away .... I was dying with pain for the yearning to hold him"[/FONT]
M
I think the point is well made, there are times when it is good because a child is rescued from abuse but there are also times when it is bad because a child is taken from a loving mother and both then suffer severe emotional pain, I knew back when I begant this thread that there is a dark side to adoption but that is more close to the human trafficking problem that is unfortunately prominent in some places.
I think it's important to seperate the two and acknowledge that when I asked about adoption I was speaking about fully legal and morally decent procedures to re-home infants and newborns who have been voluntarily given up for adoption by parents who have freely decided for themselves that they cannot provide for the child or for some incomprehensible reason do not wish too.
Unfortunately the illegal trade of children/young people is fueled by criminal organisations and corrupt individuals who wish to simply make money or get into a position where they themselves can perpetrate abuse, but it is crucial when discussing this to see these as two very different things and they cannot be classified under an umbrella term like 'adoption'.
As I have said the type of adoption/foster care I am talking about is not evil but rather an undeniably good thing that many would testify too and some have within this thread itself, two different issues seem to be getting discussed here and I think to condemn one action because another is bad is completely out of line.
I think it's important to seperate the two and acknowledge that when I asked about adoption I was speaking about fully legal and morally decent procedures to re-home infants and newborns who have been voluntarily given up for adoption by parents who have freely decided for themselves that they cannot provide for the child or for some incomprehensible reason do not wish too.
Unfortunately the illegal trade of children/young people is fueled by criminal organisations and corrupt individuals who wish to simply make money or get into a position where they themselves can perpetrate abuse, but it is crucial when discussing this to see these as two very different things and they cannot be classified under an umbrella term like 'adoption'.
As I have said the type of adoption/foster care I am talking about is not evil but rather an undeniably good thing that many would testify too and some have within this thread itself, two different issues seem to be getting discussed here and I think to condemn one action because another is bad is completely out of line.
Matthew,
Of course I know that your intentions are good and I am certain you wouldn't want to adopt a child under any immoral circumstance. The problem however is that you will never know whether the circumstance is moral or not.
The stories I have provided aren't from some distant country. These stories are from people who live in our countries and our cities. These stories are from strangers you have seen on the street and maybe even casually talk to. These stories could be from people at your own church or workplace.
Unless you can meet the birthmother alone in person - away from influences that might be forcing her decision - then you can never be 100% certain you have done the right thing. There is no way for you to know where that child is coming from and the circumstances behind it. As well, even if the mother makes the decision at 16 years of age after being told how great adoption is, do you think she may not regret her decision later? If people can't even legally make decisions for themselves at 18 how can they sign their baby away for life at 16?
How about consider founding or assisting an agency that would help both mother and child? Does that not sound like a better option than potentially destroying someones life by taking their child without consent? Especially when there is so much information out there proving that there is abundance of evil occurring behind adoption?
Seriously, if people are educated to the evils occurring and then they decide to proceed and adopt anyway and do cause harm, would God be pleased? The answer is very simple then. Don't adopt but help mother and baby to stay together.
Helping a mother and baby to stay together in a healthy relationship is the most unselfish gift anyone could ever give. That is true Christianity, not adoption.
Quest
Of course I know that your intentions are good and I am certain you wouldn't want to adopt a child under any immoral circumstance. The problem however is that you will never know whether the circumstance is moral or not.
The stories I have provided aren't from some distant country. These stories are from people who live in our countries and our cities. These stories are from strangers you have seen on the street and maybe even casually talk to. These stories could be from people at your own church or workplace.
Unless you can meet the birthmother alone in person - away from influences that might be forcing her decision - then you can never be 100% certain you have done the right thing. There is no way for you to know where that child is coming from and the circumstances behind it. As well, even if the mother makes the decision at 16 years of age after being told how great adoption is, do you think she may not regret her decision later? If people can't even legally make decisions for themselves at 18 how can they sign their baby away for life at 16?
How about consider founding or assisting an agency that would help both mother and child? Does that not sound like a better option than potentially destroying someones life by taking their child without consent? Especially when there is so much information out there proving that there is abundance of evil occurring behind adoption?
Seriously, if people are educated to the evils occurring and then they decide to proceed and adopt anyway and do cause harm, would God be pleased? The answer is very simple then. Don't adopt but help mother and baby to stay together.
Helping a mother and baby to stay together in a healthy relationship is the most unselfish gift anyone could ever give. That is true Christianity, not adoption.
Quest
L
Way too funny! 
Guess we need to rename the thread: "Thoughts On Adopting Gremlins... (and Occasionally, Trolls.)"
Guess we need to rename the thread: "Thoughts On Adopting Gremlins... (and Occasionally, Trolls.)"
Questiontime, I don't know the specifics of my brother's adoption, but I know his biological mom gave him up as willingly as a mom can. God would not have basically placed my little brother in our laps if it was done at the harm of his biological mom.
J
Hello,
Imagine my shock to discover a part of an article I wrote years ago was used on this forum in regards to adoption. I would love to add my two cents about adoption.
I am a birthmother who relinquished my child in 1975 into a closed private adoption. I was young and this was a decision my parents made for me, and a decision we all had to live with for years. Years that I spent "crashing and burning" filled with grief and anger. Years that I would never take back though because as wierd as this may sound, those years helped form me into the person I am today and I like that person. Let me tell you what I have learned: the adoption was a good thing. It hurt me far more than I can express, it caused me to hate my parents for what I felt was a selfish decision made because their pride would not allow them to admit they had a daughter who had gotten in "Trouble". I wasn't allowed to see my son, wasn't allowed to know anything about him, had to give him up to a Jewish couple even though I refused to do it when I was told (at the actual signing of the relinquishment that his new parents were Jewish). Seems I couldn't refuse and be taken seriously because they quite simply ignored me when I said no. What saved my life was the birth of my other son 11 years later. It was the start of healing for me, I was determined to be the parent to this child that I wasn't able to be for my first child. I found my first son when he was 18. I found out that he was alive and well, found out what his name was, and found out that I was totally unwelcome in his life because his parents were threatened by my presence. I was sad but the silver lining to the cloud was that I finally talked to my parents and discovered how much they regretted the decision they made and the reasons why they made the decision and how they had suffered over the years. It made me really think and the truth is that I would have been a rotten mom at that time of my life and my parents wouldn't have been able to take my place and raise him very well either. My son got a good family that loves him deeply and I think he had a better life with them than I would have provided for him.
However, there are things about the adoption system that need to change and the system is slowly changing. The system as it is damages birthmothers far too much. Noone should have to relinquish a child and not have access to information about that child's welfare. I am not saying that we should be involved in their lives on a regular basis but to be totally fair, what would the harm be in yearly updates and photographs through a third party? If I had been given something like this I honestly feel I would have been able to heal much sooner and while I can't be certain I don't know if I would have felt such a need to find him the minute he turned 18. I would have given him some years to mature and be more capable of handling my entrance into his life. I often wondered if his adoptive family would have been given contact info for me if he needed anything medically. When I found them, I found they knew who I was all along. So the only one kept in the dark was me. I find that hypocritical and cruel. I also found out that there was alot of money exchanged between the adoptive parents and the private adoption attorney who handled the adoption. In fact the attorney turned out to be the US's largest baby broker and was disbarred some 20 years later for unsavory adoption practices.
Don't confuse parents who lose their children to the system because of neglect or abuse with parents who relinquished at birth. Totally different situations and to be honest, lets face it, most of the kids taken from abusive parents end up in foster care because they are older when they are finally taken away. They are much harder to place because the majority of potential adoptive parents want babies not kids with problems.
There has to be a happy medium to this problem. More open adoptions, though I don't know that I would opt for completely open adoptions. I do feel that the adoptive families have the right to be parents, not co-parents. They should be educated more though, they should know how very important of a gift they were given and be more open towards information exchange without revealing identities while the child is a minor.
The system in America has created this kind of secrecy and condemnation of the birthmother while canonizing the adoptive parents and this creates some of the problems with adoption today. More openness is needed but not to the degree that the child is left confused as to who he is and who he belongs to. More people should be willing to adopt a child in the foster system and give those kids a shot instead of searching for that elusive baby.
I often felt guilty for finding my son and setting in motion the angst his parents lived with once I came into his life. You know what helped me get over that guilt? Remembering that God arranged the first birthfamily reunion: he led Moses to his birthfamily! Good news for those Israelites that God was openminded about adoption, search and reunion.
Oh, and by the way, I met my son when he was 21 years old. I waited 21 years to see that face, that glorious face. Now, I am not a stupid person, and I was thrilled to see him but a tiny part of me was disappointed, deep down there was this foolish desire to see the baby I never got to see, and I will always mourn the fact that I will never see that babies face. Its really hard to live with the fact that I gave birth to a child that I will always be a stranger too. Real life shouldn't be that way.
Jaymie Frederick
Imagine my shock to discover a part of an article I wrote years ago was used on this forum in regards to adoption. I would love to add my two cents about adoption.
I am a birthmother who relinquished my child in 1975 into a closed private adoption. I was young and this was a decision my parents made for me, and a decision we all had to live with for years. Years that I spent "crashing and burning" filled with grief and anger. Years that I would never take back though because as wierd as this may sound, those years helped form me into the person I am today and I like that person. Let me tell you what I have learned: the adoption was a good thing. It hurt me far more than I can express, it caused me to hate my parents for what I felt was a selfish decision made because their pride would not allow them to admit they had a daughter who had gotten in "Trouble". I wasn't allowed to see my son, wasn't allowed to know anything about him, had to give him up to a Jewish couple even though I refused to do it when I was told (at the actual signing of the relinquishment that his new parents were Jewish). Seems I couldn't refuse and be taken seriously because they quite simply ignored me when I said no. What saved my life was the birth of my other son 11 years later. It was the start of healing for me, I was determined to be the parent to this child that I wasn't able to be for my first child. I found my first son when he was 18. I found out that he was alive and well, found out what his name was, and found out that I was totally unwelcome in his life because his parents were threatened by my presence. I was sad but the silver lining to the cloud was that I finally talked to my parents and discovered how much they regretted the decision they made and the reasons why they made the decision and how they had suffered over the years. It made me really think and the truth is that I would have been a rotten mom at that time of my life and my parents wouldn't have been able to take my place and raise him very well either. My son got a good family that loves him deeply and I think he had a better life with them than I would have provided for him.
However, there are things about the adoption system that need to change and the system is slowly changing. The system as it is damages birthmothers far too much. Noone should have to relinquish a child and not have access to information about that child's welfare. I am not saying that we should be involved in their lives on a regular basis but to be totally fair, what would the harm be in yearly updates and photographs through a third party? If I had been given something like this I honestly feel I would have been able to heal much sooner and while I can't be certain I don't know if I would have felt such a need to find him the minute he turned 18. I would have given him some years to mature and be more capable of handling my entrance into his life. I often wondered if his adoptive family would have been given contact info for me if he needed anything medically. When I found them, I found they knew who I was all along. So the only one kept in the dark was me. I find that hypocritical and cruel. I also found out that there was alot of money exchanged between the adoptive parents and the private adoption attorney who handled the adoption. In fact the attorney turned out to be the US's largest baby broker and was disbarred some 20 years later for unsavory adoption practices.
Don't confuse parents who lose their children to the system because of neglect or abuse with parents who relinquished at birth. Totally different situations and to be honest, lets face it, most of the kids taken from abusive parents end up in foster care because they are older when they are finally taken away. They are much harder to place because the majority of potential adoptive parents want babies not kids with problems.
There has to be a happy medium to this problem. More open adoptions, though I don't know that I would opt for completely open adoptions. I do feel that the adoptive families have the right to be parents, not co-parents. They should be educated more though, they should know how very important of a gift they were given and be more open towards information exchange without revealing identities while the child is a minor.
The system in America has created this kind of secrecy and condemnation of the birthmother while canonizing the adoptive parents and this creates some of the problems with adoption today. More openness is needed but not to the degree that the child is left confused as to who he is and who he belongs to. More people should be willing to adopt a child in the foster system and give those kids a shot instead of searching for that elusive baby.
I often felt guilty for finding my son and setting in motion the angst his parents lived with once I came into his life. You know what helped me get over that guilt? Remembering that God arranged the first birthfamily reunion: he led Moses to his birthfamily! Good news for those Israelites that God was openminded about adoption, search and reunion.
Oh, and by the way, I met my son when he was 21 years old. I waited 21 years to see that face, that glorious face. Now, I am not a stupid person, and I was thrilled to see him but a tiny part of me was disappointed, deep down there was this foolish desire to see the baby I never got to see, and I will always mourn the fact that I will never see that babies face. Its really hard to live with the fact that I gave birth to a child that I will always be a stranger too. Real life shouldn't be that way.
Jaymie Frederick
A
as a whole those of you who feel adoption is evil, and are generalizing adoption into this huge bucket....where the vinegar and the water doesnt mix...need to stop.
On a nother note, Jaymie-I am sorry for your loss. I do understand this has happened and it is best to keep families together. I am glad you got to see him and there is healing.
question...i do know you are hurting...but dont take that out on the system as a whole
On a nother note, Jaymie-I am sorry for your loss. I do understand this has happened and it is best to keep families together. I am glad you got to see him and there is healing.
question...i do know you are hurting...but dont take that out on the system as a whole
Greetings April,
Please watch this video below. This video is from a Christian Senator who tried to reform the adoption system and lost her seat because of it. If you watch the video you will find that the "system as a whole" is corrupt beyond imagination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIFQFY-qY8I
Quest
Please watch this video below. This video is from a Christian Senator who tried to reform the adoption system and lost her seat because of it. If you watch the video you will find that the "system as a whole" is corrupt beyond imagination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIFQFY-qY8I
Quest
I'll add this reply from my thread here also:
Greetings April,
April, our arguments both merge right in the middle of the adoption issue. If the lean is toward your end of the spectrum - and clearly in this forum it is - more children will be adopted away against the will of their families. If the lean is toward my perspective, the more children will be allowed to remain in abusive situations. I must conclude then that being in the middle is the best place that we both can be, and it is where everyone should stand in regards to this issue. The middle will always be the safest place for us all, in order to best prevent abuse of one kind or the other.
Take care and thanks for the excellent post!
Quest
Greetings April,
April, our arguments both merge right in the middle of the adoption issue. If the lean is toward your end of the spectrum - and clearly in this forum it is - more children will be adopted away against the will of their families. If the lean is toward my perspective, the more children will be allowed to remain in abusive situations. I must conclude then that being in the middle is the best place that we both can be, and it is where everyone should stand in regards to this issue. The middle will always be the safest place for us all, in order to best prevent abuse of one kind or the other.
Take care and thanks for the excellent post!
Quest
J
Hi again,
I am somewhat confused about what April said. I wasn't speaking against adoption as a whole at all. I thought it was clear that I felt adoption was the best plan for mine and my son's situation and I don't say that all adoption should be banned. However, like everything else in the US, the system is corrupt and the odds seem to all be stacked on one side. Anytime this happens, the system as a whole doesn't work for the betterment of all involved.
Children given away at birth and children taken away because of abuse and neglect are two entirely different matters and can't be compared to each other to determine the pros and cons of the adoption issue.
I am a professional adoption researcher and have completed over 3000 cases since I started my business. Along the way I have become very knowledgeable about this field from all aspects of the triad. I have testified before several state legislatures about opening records to adult adoptees, and I often counsel members of the triad on the commonsense issues of adoption search and reunion. To date I have never said the system should be abolished but there should be progressive change. Does everyone realize that the USA is one of the LAST countries in the world to have closed records? I consider it highly hypocritical of the US to tout our history as a people and nation then refuse a segment of their citizenry the right to know who they were at birth and where they come from.
As with any important issue we deal with, if corruption and deception are a major factor in the issue, then the issue is rotten. It doesn't mean we do away with the issue entirely, it means we stand up for what is right and clean it up.
I am somewhat confused about what April said. I wasn't speaking against adoption as a whole at all. I thought it was clear that I felt adoption was the best plan for mine and my son's situation and I don't say that all adoption should be banned. However, like everything else in the US, the system is corrupt and the odds seem to all be stacked on one side. Anytime this happens, the system as a whole doesn't work for the betterment of all involved.
Children given away at birth and children taken away because of abuse and neglect are two entirely different matters and can't be compared to each other to determine the pros and cons of the adoption issue.
I am a professional adoption researcher and have completed over 3000 cases since I started my business. Along the way I have become very knowledgeable about this field from all aspects of the triad. I have testified before several state legislatures about opening records to adult adoptees, and I often counsel members of the triad on the commonsense issues of adoption search and reunion. To date I have never said the system should be abolished but there should be progressive change. Does everyone realize that the USA is one of the LAST countries in the world to have closed records? I consider it highly hypocritical of the US to tout our history as a people and nation then refuse a segment of their citizenry the right to know who they were at birth and where they come from.
As with any important issue we deal with, if corruption and deception are a major factor in the issue, then the issue is rotten. It doesn't mean we do away with the issue entirely, it means we stand up for what is right and clean it up.
No, it's not the "only antidote." There is another antidote called adopting both mother and child together. That's Christianity.
Jesus didn't take homeless mothers, give their babies to someone else and then send the birthmothers away without helping them. But that is exactly what adoption does, in the name of Jesus no less!
Jesus - on the other hand - would adopt and care for both mother and child together, and we ought to follow that example.
Quest
Jesus didn't take homeless mothers, give their babies to someone else and then send the birthmothers away without helping them. But that is exactly what adoption does, in the name of Jesus no less!
Jesus - on the other hand - would adopt and care for both mother and child together, and we ought to follow that example.
Quest
If an abortion was required to save a woman's life then that's what is required. But I have heard said repeatedly by pro-life people that abortion has never and never will be required to save a woman's life.
I would Google this just to find out for sure. I don't want to because the websites can be gruesome.
Quest
I would Google this just to find out for sure. I don't want to because the websites can be gruesome.
Quest